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Post by tarkintino on Mar 15, 2018 14:13:21 GMT -5
Reviewing COIE without knowing the DC characters beforehand is like watching Avengers:Infinity War without ever seeing a Marvel movie. You just won't get the layers and the special nature of the event. Well said. COIE was not some introductory course for DC Comics--it was the outgrowth and conclusion of 50 years of character development, events, and effect on storylines, with the creatives behind COIE all making it seem as if the event was meant to happen (a brilliant achievement). Just dropping in on such a story with no knowledge of the characters/events which inspired it all...and being a self-identified Marvel fan--already sets up a negative review every step of the way.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 15, 2018 15:36:16 GMT -5
Thing is, when you look at 99% of these crossover events, they aren't jumping on points for anyone. They are a team-up, on steroids. Very few of them really hold up particularly well, with just the main events issues and tend to be remembered more for individual elements, often occuring in the regular magazine. Legends was a bit more coherent, especially since it was kept to fewer issues; but, the better stuff happened in individual comics, such as Superman's battles with Darkseid and his minions. The main Legends story has moments, like the introduction of the new Suicide Squad; but, the rest kind of falls flat. Millennium was a total mess; but, there were some good comics in there, like the sequence in the swamp, that went across Detective Comics, Captain Atom, Suicide Squad and the Spectre. That worked pretty well. Almost none of them produced characters of any lasting value. Harbinger, Pariah and Lady Quark bounced around a bit; but, pretty much disappeared quickly. Harbinger was made a central part of Millennium, which still didn't give her much of a reason to exist, beyond her role in Crisis (which was to essentially be the Monitor's field rep). Pariah should have died, in my opinion, and was a character that just seemed design to make you want to see die. War of the Gods served only to bring the JSA back and Invasion served no purpose whatsoever, though it had fun pockets, here and there. Armageddon 2000 and Zero Hour served no good purpose, other than to be an annual event comic. As far as I am concerned, the only good thing that came out of that was Starman. Marvel's were just as forgettable, if not more. Secret Wars II had more in common with Crisis than the original; but, a lot of things were rolled back as soon as Shooter was out. Things like Operation: Galactic Storm barely raised a ripple. Infinity Gauntlet was probably the first to have an impact and I think even Marvel was a bit surprised at how well it was received. My memory was that it wasn't marketed as being much more than an offshoot of what Starlin had been doing in Silver Surfer; just a spin-off mini-series. It became something bigger (aided heavily by Perez's ability to juggle characters, in a cosmic setting) after the fact, to the point its legend is greater than its inception.
Crisis suffers from the problem that team books toil under, in general: too many characters and not enough room to develop them. Most team books have two or three characters who get attention from the writer and the rest of the time is spent on the big battle. In the Avengers, depending on the writer, it would be someone like the Vision, or Hawkeye; a character without their own title. The rest would just kind of move in and out of scenes, until the big set piece. Crisis takes that limitation, then magnifies it 1000-fold. Almost no one gets more than a page or two of attention. Really, it becomes less about character development than about the history of the multi-verse, it's impending end, and the aftermath, with a couple of quick side-trips. We spend a lot of time learning about the birth of the multiverse, with Krona and Pariah, the birth of the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor, how things grew to this stage, the big confrontation, then how the universe has changed, to set up the comics that will follow. There really isn't room for development, which is part of why I think the characters that were created within the maxi-series never really made an impact. They weren't developed here and were used sparingly after (probably only appearing due to editorial dictates) and then disappeared, due to disinterests.
The ones that worked best were mostly self-contained, like Marvels or Kingdom Come, or The Golden Age. Those were big event stories, with more of a focus, across a more contained field of books. The X-men were more successful with these thing than the bigger Marvel events, since they kept a tighter focus. Even the more successful ones, though, are still built on familiarity and manipulating fan expectations. None of them were designed to haul in new readers. That was always the domain of the series launch. Man of Steel, Batman: Year One, the Wonder Woman relaunch, Justice League, the Flash, Suicide Squad, Starman; these were where new readers came on board, as they were fresh approaches or books, where they could see the characters grow. For Superman it proved to be a massive shot in the arm, returning him to the place he once held. For Batman, it was the christening of his position as the top draw at DC Comics, and 20 years without a sense of humor (except in the hands of the BTAS folks and Batman Adventures).
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Post by rberman on Mar 15, 2018 16:20:07 GMT -5
The ones that worked best were mostly self-contained, like Marvels or Kingdom Come, or The Golden Age. Those were big event stories, with more of a focus, across a more contained field of books. The X-men were more successful with these thing than the bigger Marvel events, since they kept a tighter focus. Even the more successful ones, though, are still built on familiarity and manipulating fan expectations. None of them were designed to haul in new readers. That was always the domain of the series launch. Man of Steel, Batman: Year One, the Wonder Woman relaunch, Justice League, the Flash, Suicide Squad, Starman; these were where new readers came on board, as they were fresh approaches or books, where they could see the characters grow. For Superman it proved to be a massive shot in the arm, returning him to the place he once held. For Batman, it was the christening of his position as the top draw at DC Comics, and 20 years without a sense of humor (except in the hands of the BTAS folks and Batman Adventures). I've been wanting to read The Golden Age for a while, and it looks like DC is finally releasing a trade volume in May, so yay!
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 15, 2018 17:51:58 GMT -5
The ones that worked best were mostly self-contained, like Marvels or Kingdom Come, or The Golden Age. Those were big event stories, with more of a focus, across a more contained field of books. The X-men were more successful with these thing than the bigger Marvel events, since they kept a tighter focus. Even the more successful ones, though, are still built on familiarity and manipulating fan expectations. None of them were designed to haul in new readers. That was always the domain of the series launch. Man of Steel, Batman: Year One, the Wonder Woman relaunch, Justice League, the Flash, Suicide Squad, Starman; these were where new readers came on board, as they were fresh approaches or books, where they could see the characters grow. For Superman it proved to be a massive shot in the arm, returning him to the place he once held. For Batman, it was the christening of his position as the top draw at DC Comics, and 20 years without a sense of humor (except in the hands of the BTAS folks and Batman Adventures). I've been wanting to read The Golden Age for a while, and it looks like DC is finally releasing a trade volume in May, so yay! There have been a couple of trade editions, in past years, including when the JSA series was hot; so, it was retitled JSA: the Golden Age, for the trade. I had the promotional poster for it, when the mini-series was being launched... That image, alone, had me hooked for this. Paul Smith was channeling Alex Raymond, Lou Fine and Reed Crandall and it was just beautiful. Robinson was in his element. Funny thing was, I had a similar idea in mind, for a Nuclear Age hero to be born in the Atomic Battlefield tests of the late 40s, with a Right-Wing patriotic hero from WW2 and this new Atomic hero, to capture the McCarthy era and even thought it was something that could be done at DC, with Mr America, the Ameri-Commando. When I first heard about this, I wondered if James Robinson had peeked at my notepad. I had been making notes about an idea o a generational story of superheroes, matching the publishing eras of comics, as well as the actual history of the period. I had ideas of a pulp science hero, ala Doc Savage, being the recruiter of the 1940s heroes, the use of Nazi scientists (ala Operation: Paperclip) to develop a superbeing (merged with atomic testing), McCarthyism and the Kefauver Comic Book hearings, the space race and 60s hero rebirth, radical heroes as art of the anti-war movement, clashing with pro-government heroes, and a modern era return of the most powerful of the radicals to face the world of corporate greed, secret wars, proxy fights, reduced civil rights and political turmoil of the Reagan/Bush and Thatcher era. Over time, I saw similar things pop up in Golden Age, Stormwatch, DC: The New Frontier, and others. Granted, most of my ideas were built upon things already done, including in the Wild Cards book series, and the Paul Levitz-written JSA story, from Adventure Comics, where the JSA refuses to answer to a McCarthy stand-in.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 15, 2018 19:38:13 GMT -5
Reviewing COIE without knowing the DC characters beforehand is like watching Avengers:Infinity War without ever seeing a Marvel movie. You just won't get the layers and the special nature of the event. Although I am a huge fan of the DC Earths especially Earth 2, Earth 3, and Earth C Minus and that did not enhance my enjoyment... I do want to say that this thread is worthwhile and interesting and that Crisis. is an important part of superhero comics that you should be aware of if you want to more-than-casually follow the genre. And I like plenty of comics with sucky, sucky writing, too. So I am not any better than you Crisis fans.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 15, 2018 19:45:57 GMT -5
Reviewing COIE without knowing the DC characters beforehand is like watching Avengers:Infinity War without ever seeing a Marvel movie. You just won't get the layers and the special nature of the event. Although I am a huge fan of the DC Earths especially Earth 2, Earth 3, and Earth C Minus and that did not enhance my enjoyment... It probably decreases any possible enjoyment as you know that those fun things are going to be destroyed the book.
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Post by String on Mar 16, 2018 15:38:52 GMT -5
Gonna sound like a broken record; but, the characters were being developed in their own books. Crisis was about them fighting the calamity; their series tie-ins were about how it was affecting them and those around them. This was the first really coordinated, large scale crossover event. Everything across the line was affected. You even see little editor notes to check out issue X of so and so's title, to learn more. Then here's a stroke of luck. In Nov, Amazon has listed for release the first volume of Crisis on Infinite Earths Companion deluxe edition which reprints those tie-in issues. This first volume will supposedly contain: JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #244, JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA ANNUAL #3, GREEN LANTERN #194, WONDER WOMAN #327-328, LOSERS SPECIAL #1, INFINITY INC. 318-20, DC COMICS PRESENTS #87-88, OMEGA MEN #31, BLUE DEVIL #17-18, NEW TEEN TITANS #13-14, ALL-STAR SQUADRON #50-51 and FURY OF FIRESTORM #87.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Mar 16, 2018 16:16:53 GMT -5
Then here's a stroke of luck. In Nov, Amazon has listed for release the first volume of Crisis on Infinite Earths Companion deluxe edition which reprints those tie-in issues. This first volume will supposedly contain: JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #244, JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA ANNUAL #3, GREEN LANTERN #194, WONDER WOMAN #327-328, LOSERS SPECIAL #1, INFINITY INC. 318-20, DC COMICS PRESENTS #87-88, OMEGA MEN #31, BLUE DEVIL #17-18, NEW TEEN TITANS #13-14, ALL-STAR SQUADRON #50-51 and FURY OF FIRESTORM #87. Firestorm #87 by Ostrander and Mandrake was published long after Crisis and had dropped the "Fury of" from its name by then. Perhaps they mean Fury of Firestorm #41 or 42, which I think were Crisis tie-ins.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 16, 2018 16:40:41 GMT -5
I don't remember those so called " tie ins" having anything that added to the 12 issue mini series.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 16, 2018 18:37:25 GMT -5
Then here's a stroke of luck. In Nov, Amazon has listed for release the first volume of Crisis on Infinite Earths Companion deluxe edition which reprints those tie-in issues. This first volume will supposedly contain: JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #244, JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA ANNUAL #3, GREEN LANTERN #194, WONDER WOMAN #327-328, LOSERS SPECIAL #1, INFINITY INC. 318-20, DC COMICS PRESENTS #87-88, OMEGA MEN #31, BLUE DEVIL #17-18, NEW TEEN TITANS #13-14, ALL-STAR SQUADRON #50-51 and FURY OF FIRESTORM #87. Firestorm #87 by Ostrander and Mandrake was published long after Crisis and had dropped the "Fury of" from its name by then. Perhaps they mean Fury of Firestorm #41 or 42, which I think were Crisis tie-ins. I am a little suspicious of Infinity Inc. # 318 as well. I was actually just thinking that it would be interesting to see how DC transitioned from pre-to-post Crisis. I've only read a couple of these. Including DC Comics Presents, both of which are definitely worth reading. There's the last Superman/Supergirl story and the introduction of the Earth-Prime Superboy.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 16, 2018 23:09:10 GMT -5
I don't remember those so called " tie ins" having anything that added to the 12 issue mini series. Not necessarily central to the Crisis plot; but, more of what they were doing in their part of the calamity or how their supporting cast were dealing with things. I picked up a few of those, after the fact, as I hadn't been reading much of anything, due to access, until I found a comic shop, at college. The first issue of Crisis I picked up was #7 and 8, then 12; then, I went back and got the rest.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 17, 2018 5:45:58 GMT -5
I don't remember those so called " tie ins" having anything that added to the 12 issue mini series. Not necessarily central to the Crisis plot; but, more of what they were doing in their part of the calamity or how their supporting cast were dealing with things. I picked up a few of those, after the fact, as I hadn't been reading much of anything, due to access, until I found a comic shop, at college. The first issue of Crisis I picked up was #7 and 8, then 12; then, I went back and got the rest. It's a good thing that those issues aren't necessary to complete the COIE story. In Secret Wars 2 Jim Shooter resolved a story started in the regular FF book in the pages of that mini. I have a complete run of FF from 116-412 and I don't have the resolution of the Molecule man story where Sue becomes evil. That's a misuse of a mini-series.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 17, 2018 9:07:56 GMT -5
^ Well, its the Secret Wars concept, so, there's not much sense, resolution or anything else to be found in it.
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Post by spoon on Mar 17, 2018 11:36:43 GMT -5
#4 has a different because so much of it focused on the newer characters created for the series (the Monitor, Pariah, Harbinger, the new Dr. Light and the introduction of Lady Quark) rather than established characters. Yes, I know the Monitor and Harbinger were introduced before Crisis, but that for the build-up to Crisis. I love the cover to this issue and the design of Lady Quark. The credits say Perez just did layouts and DeCarlo did finishes, and I don't feel the art is as good.
I kind of like that an Earth we've never seen before (Earth-Six) is one of the last Earths around. It suggests the vast of the Multiverse - there are many worlds we never get to know. Although her superhero name isn't used, Liana the daughter is Princess Fern. I don't remember when that name is used. The Monitor reveals that he's the one who has empowered Pariah to survive the destruction of each universe. Pariah faults Monitor for making him endure repeated suffering rather than just being able to die. The irony is that Pariah has just saved Lady Quark after she saw her husband, her daughter, and her Earth destroyed rather than allowing her to perish along with it. I think this is intentional, showing Pariah condemn an act analogous to what he just did. However, I've been reading along rather than reading ahead, so I don't remember how these things play out.
The Supergirl and Batgirl scene is a great one that I always remember. Thematically, it demonstrates how differently people with different abilities deal with the Crisis. Also, it's a callback to the meeting between Superman and Batman.
Poor Red Tornado! Things don't look too good for him. I started reading comics right around the time of Crisis, so I didn't get to read Red Tornado in his heyday. There was a Red Tornado miniseries right around this time, and I remember my older brother had an issue.
Having 12 issues, allows Wolfman and Perez to be indulgent at times, like when Perez uses those progressions of the seeming destruction of the Earth on those last three pages.
I noticed that when Earth-Six is being destroyed, a caption notes that after this only 4 Earths will be left. So I'm guessing someone miscounted. How did that happen? Was one of the Earths that remains in the later issues of series not originally intended to be around? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Post by spoon on Mar 17, 2018 11:41:05 GMT -5
Gonna sound like a broken record; but, the characters were being developed in their own books. Crisis was about them fighting the calamity; their series tie-ins were about how it was affecting them and those around them. This was the first really coordinated, large scale crossover event. Everything across the line was affected. You even see little editor notes to check out issue X of so and so's title, to learn more. Alan Moore started on Swamp Thing in 1983, with his first issue (#20) cover-dated January, 1984. John Constantine first appeared in #37 (cover date June 85), in March of 1985, when issue #3 of Crisis was on the stands. So, he is brand-spanking new. Lady Quark makes her debut and is saved by Pariah. Interesting. So I guess John Constantine's appearance isn't so much weaving in more DC mythos as promoting then-current Swamp Thing stories. And Steve Dayton is Mento, ally of the Doom Patrol, right? He shows up out of left field.
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