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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 17, 2018 12:01:13 GMT -5
Gonna sound like a broken record; but, the characters were being developed in their own books. Crisis was about them fighting the calamity; their series tie-ins were about how it was affecting them and those around them. This was the first really coordinated, large scale crossover event. Everything across the line was affected. You even see little editor notes to check out issue X of so and so's title, to learn more. Alan Moore started on Swamp Thing in 1983, with his first issue (#20) cover-dated January, 1984. John Constantine first appeared in #37 (cover date June 85), in March of 1985, when issue #3 of Crisis was on the stands. So, he is brand-spanking new. Lady Quark makes her debut and is saved by Pariah. Interesting. So I guess John Constantine's appearance isn't so much weaving in more DC mythos as promoting then-current Swamp Thing stories. And Steve Dayton is Mento, ally of the Doom Patrol, right? He shows up out of left field. Dayton was part of the supporting cast of New Teen Titans, as Changeling's legal guardian (adoptive father). He played a central role in the NTT book, that month, as well as Swamp Thing, as the stories crossed over. His mental state had been established to be on shaky ground, from use of his helmet. That ends up central to the NTT title, in post-Crisis, when they introduce the Hybrids. |
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Post by spoon on Mar 17, 2018 15:28:00 GMT -5
Interesting. So I guess John Constantine's appearance isn't so much weaving in more DC mythos as promoting then-current Swamp Thing stories. And Steve Dayton is Mento, ally of the Doom Patrol, right? He shows up out of left field. Dayton was part of the supporting cast of New Teen Titans, as Changeling's legal guardian (adoptive father). He played a central role in the NTT book, that month, as well as Swamp Thing, as the stories crossed over. His mental state had been established to be on shaky ground, from use of his helmet. That ends up central to the NTT title, in post-Crisis, when they introduce the Hybrids. Thanks. My NTT collection is pretty sparse from right around the time of Crisis. I think I remember Dayton in the Doom Patrol arc from the NTT series that started in 1980. I didn't realize he was showing up in NTT during/after Crisis. |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 18, 2018 13:36:47 GMT -5
Not necessarily central to the Crisis plot; but, more of what they were doing in their part of the calamity or how their supporting cast were dealing with things. I picked up a few of those, after the fact, as I hadn't been reading much of anything, due to access, until I found a comic shop, at college. The first issue of Crisis I picked up was #7 and 8, then 12; then, I went back and got the rest. It's a good thing that those issues aren't necessary to complete the COIE story. In Secret Wars 2 Jim Shooter resolved a story started in the regular FF book in the pages of that mini. I have a complete run of FF from 116-412 and I don't have the resolution of the Molecule man story where Sue becomes evil. That's a misuse of a mini-series. Psycho-Man and yeah, I hate that the Hate-Monger storyline wrapped up in SW2. Those pages are included in the Byrne FF omnibus, but frankly, I wish they hadn't been. The art is terrible, the writing is embarrassing, its appearance in the book is jarring and it brings the whole volume down slightly. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 18, 2018 13:59:25 GMT -5
It's a good thing that those issues aren't necessary to complete the COIE story. In Secret Wars 2 Jim Shooter resolved a story started in the regular FF book in the pages of that mini. I have a complete run of FF from 116-412 and I don't have the resolution of the Molecule man story where Sue becomes evil. That's a misuse of a mini-series. Psycho-Man and yeah, I hate that the Hate-Monger storyline wrapped up in SW2. Those pages are included in the Byrne FF omnibus, but frankly, I wish they hadn't been. The art is terrible, the writing is embarrassing, its appearance in the book is jarring and it brings the whole volume down slightly. It's total fail and a money grab. Shame on Shooter and Marvel. I never bought that issue to complete the story, either. |
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 18, 2018 14:10:23 GMT -5
It's a good thing that those issues aren't necessary to complete the COIE story. In Secret Wars 2 Jim Shooter resolved a story started in the regular FF book in the pages of that mini. I have a complete run of FF from 116-412 and I don't have the resolution of the Molecule man story where Sue becomes evil. That's a misuse of a mini-series. Psycho-Man and yeah, I hate that the Hate-Monger storyline wrapped up in SW2. Those pages are included in the Byrne FF omnibus, but frankly, I wish they hadn't been. The art is terrible, the writing is embarrassing, its appearance in the book is jarring and it brings the whole volume down slightly. That's one of SW2:s minor crimes. At least the story still reads pretty well on its own. What happened in other issues and titles were much worse. The Spider-Man titles continued directly from SW2, and the storyline was some terrible golden building stuff. Avengers had it worse. The ending to a good Nebula debut story was ruined by a Beyonder deus ex machina, and just a few issues later there's a crossover where you have to read SW2 #9 to get the full story (still haven't, though. Haha!). Meanwhile in the FF, Beyonder was forcefed into the emotional "Hero" issue after the plot had already been written. A couple of months later and hey, he's back again! I don't hate a good event and crossover, but they better make sure it's actually a good one. It's a really bitchy thing to do to make readers of a top title buy some Z-grade trash book to get the full story. |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 18, 2018 15:47:48 GMT -5
Psycho-Man and yeah, I hate that the Hate-Monger storyline wrapped up in SW2. Those pages are included in the Byrne FF omnibus, but frankly, I wish they hadn't been. The art is terrible, the writing is embarrassing, its appearance in the book is jarring and it brings the whole volume down slightly. That's one of SW2:s minor crimes. At least the story still reads pretty well on its own. What happened in other issues and titles were much worse. The Spider-Man titles continued directly from SW2, and the storyline was some terrible golden building stuff. Avengers had it worse. The ending to a good Nebula debut story was ruined by a Beyonder deus ex machina, and just a few issues later there's a crossover where you have to read SW2 #9 to get the full story (still haven't, though. Haha!). Meanwhile in the FF, Beyonder was forcefed into the emotional "Hero" issue after the plot had already been written. A couple of months later and hey, he's back again! I don't hate a good event and crossover, but they better make sure it's actually a good one. It's a really bitchy thing to do to make readers of a top title buy some Z-grade trash book to get the full story. Yeah, without that bit we just wonder what happened to the Hate-Monger, but we can just assume Psycho-Man deactivated it off camera or something. I think that of all the forced crossovers, Byrne handled them the best. He still turned out great stories (and wrote the Beyonder in a far more dignified way as well.) Been a long time since I read those Avengers issues, I'll have to take another look at them and refresh my memory. |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 18, 2018 15:48:41 GMT -5
Psycho-Man and yeah, I hate that the Hate-Monger storyline wrapped up in SW2. Those pages are included in the Byrne FF omnibus, but frankly, I wish they hadn't been. The art is terrible, the writing is embarrassing, its appearance in the book is jarring and it brings the whole volume down slightly. It's total fail and a money grab. Shame on Shooter and Marvel. I never bought that issue to complete the story, either. I cannot explain why I bought all of SW2. |
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 22, 2018 21:10:45 GMT -5
I've been hellabusy! But here's the review for issue 5 at last. Will it be a Byrne-style issue full of blank pages?
1:
You killed earth 1 and 2, you bastards!
Voice says Psycho-Pirate is replacable. Not really, since everyone else is dead. Three earths, aka universes, still left. Cue Anthro to the rescue?
2-4:
Calm down, woman! Pariah has no time for hysterical crybabies who don't make any sense.
Franklin Immortus is here. Don't tell me this issue is all these guys?
The earths made it out alive, after all. As far as saving universes and combining planets its an ok explanation, I guess.
5:
Flash is here, but the Psycho-Pirate turns him into a complete wimp. Uh, hasn't he been like this the entire series?
6:
First Marcus, and now dinosaurs and vintage airplanes. I really am reading Avengers 200!
7-8:
The leaders realized 15 guys isn't enough to beat the shadows, so now they've invited everybody. See, maybe you should've done this immediately? Solyvar's blood is on your hands! Don't see him or the Beetle in the crowd.
9-11:
At least Dr. Light is here.
Lois and Lana both doing the reporter bit? Even the characters mix them up.
Harbinger: "I was controlled by our enemy, but I'm ok now, honest!"
Haha, here's The Penguin finally to save the universe! Where's the real Luthor?
"All universes were meant to be one, but somehow they were split in the dawn of time". Soo.. maybe they weren't meant to be one, after all? All universes must be one! So meta.
You'd think two whole universes would have more powerful beings than 50 or so guys. Where's over the top guys like Darkseid and Mogul?
Haha, Hal Jordan playing it cool. Dude's quit and ain't coming back even for the end of the universes!
12:
Ok, so everyone who's ever lived or will live are in the same spot now? No logistical problems whatsoever? Who decided what age everyone gets to be?
13:
Who needs Hal Jordan when we can bring 20 guys with the same power? Nevermind, all dead now. Actually, even the Guardians aren't dead, just in stasis. Cop out! There better be an explanation.
15-16:
fffffffffffffff, Anthro really is back! There's another gorilla in the background.
Russia only has, ever had and will ever have only one superhero. In Soviet Russia, even green is red.
Another flying fireguy.
Firestorm and his lady are done. So much for the love story of the century. Shoulda gone for it when you had the chance, buddy.
17:
So much for Red Tornado. Not a Wolfman favorite, so he's gotta go from the reboot continuity.
18:
Old people spot a dead heroine. Since all time is one, wouldn't all the dead heroes just bounce back like Super Mario? Is anyone even dead?
"If we can't merge them properly, both worlds are doomed." More meta commentary.
19-21:
More characters pop in, but I can already tell they're gonna be completely unimportant.
Tornado's back, too.
Haha, even the character are tiring of this:
"Who even cares this red guy is dead?"
"Who's this nobody?"
Those guys were the Justice League? Holy inflation, Batman!
23-24:
Apokolips name-dropped. Even Flash knows Darkseid can take this guy!
Cliffhanger revelation.. the Monitor isn't a snowflake, after all! Ok, I admit I knew the villain was called Anti-Monitor.
25:
Wasn't even the cliffhanger. Here's some more obscure guys.
"This force destroys everything in its path!" Yeah, tell that to the Guardians.
Nice outfit on Phantom Lady.
Yeah, now they're all dead, I guess? That was the actual end to the story.
Not gonna lie, this was the toughest issue so far. Was really losing interest towards the end. Seemed a lot longer than 25 pages. It was literally just, "hey, here's this and this character", with no plot whatsoever. Might as well have been reading Who's Who. Even the review isn't funny.
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Post by rberman on Mar 22, 2018 21:37:12 GMT -5
We need Luthor to leverage stolen power from Darkseid to usurp the Anti-Monitor. No, wait, that was the plot of Secret Wars. But would Darkseid be pro-anti-monitor, or anti-anti-monitor? He is big into the whole anti-life equation...
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 22, 2018 21:48:12 GMT -5
nero9000, where are the pictures so that we can tell what you're talking about? Sorry, but this is starting to sound like same review, different day. It was clever once, but now... Can you add actual commentary instead of short takes? I think that would help motivate some good back-and-forth.
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Post by spoon on Mar 22, 2018 22:14:30 GMT -5
I've been hellabusy! But here's the review for issue 5 at last. Will it be a Byrne-style issue full of blank pages? 5: Flash is here, but the Psycho-Pirate turns him into a complete wimp. Uh, hasn't he been like this the entire series? If you go back and read the Flash's appearance in #2, it may raise some questions about that prior appearance. Yeah, the Monitor made some strange strategic choices. But maybe that has to do with the Monitor's remark on page 3 that his power source was not ready yet. Maybe he didn't have the power to teleport so many people back in #1. Blue Beetle isn't in that incredibly awesome crowd scene because he's from Earth-4. All the heroes (and the few villains) in the crowd are from Earth-1 or Earth-2. I guess because the Monitor was pulling those two Earths into this Limbo, those were the folks that were handy to work with. George Perez is really, really good at these crazy crowd scenes! Hmmm . . . When you give up a ring, the Guardians may hold it against you. Also, there may not be a free ring. There was that threatening voice coming from the Power Battery in a prior issue, so there may be something going on. I don't think she a heroine. She's just dressed like a hippie. I hope it's vaguely non-spoilery enough to note that some characters on these pages will be important. Cheetah is a villain, so she would be a jerk about Red Tornado. There will be an even more fascinating Phantom Lady panel in the future. Also, George Perez needs to draw more Phantom Lady. They could just make the last 7 issues about the Freedom Fighters. Hopefully, you'll like #6 better. I think it picks up, but I like the series throughout. Some thoughts of my own: Like several other issues, I think #5 has a very memorable, cool cover. This issue is about Earth-1 and Earth-2 coming together. Notice that the left half of the cover has Earth-1 characters and the right side has Earth-2 characters. The characters on the dividing line are split between their versions from both Earths. It seems problematic to have Alfred speaking familiarly to Batman and Robin in Wayne Manor when a bunch of super-villains are also present. They may catch on to those secret identities. A lot of space seems dedicated to the Wildcat/Yolanda Montez subplot considering it doesn't have apparent cosmic implications. My best guess is that because Infinity, Inc. was one of the titles that had the most Crisis crossover issues, it was thought a good idea to give the series some solid promotion in the pages of Crisis. I suspect John Ridley, who wrote the last letter on the letter page of #5 may be the same Ridley who went on to win a screenwriting Oscar for 12 Years a Slave. I know Ridley also wrote a few comics in the 2000s, so I looked him up on Wikipedia. Ridley attended NYU in the 1980s, so he could've had a Brooklyn address at this time. |
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Post by spoon on Mar 22, 2018 22:19:27 GMT -5
nero9000 , where are the pictures so that we can tell what you're talking about? Sorry, but this is starting to sound like same review, different day. It was clever once, but now... Can you add actual commentary instead of short takes? I think that would help motivate some good back-and-forth. Well if you want to the great crowd scene I was talking about, here it is: abload.de/image.php?img=2dvsip.jpgIt looks re-colored, so it's probably from a later TPB edition. Pretty cool, huh? |
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 22, 2018 22:31:51 GMT -5
nero9000 , where are the pictures so that we can tell what you're talking about? Sorry, but this is starting to sound like same review, different day. It was clever once, but now... Can you add actual commentary instead of short takes? I think that would help motivate some good back-and-forth. The pictures are in the comics. The bits are ruined if I overexplain them, and I'd have to scan like 30 panels. Don't see how anyone could make actual commentary on an issue like this. Anyway, I'm sure the Internet is full of rave Crisis-commentaries. I'm trying to do something different! |
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 23, 2018 1:41:44 GMT -5
nero9000 , where are the pictures so that we can tell what you're talking about? Sorry, but this is starting to sound like same review, different day. It was clever once, but now... Can you add actual commentary instead of short takes? I think that would help motivate some good back-and-forth. The pictures are in the comics. The bits are ruined if I overexplain them, and I'd have to scan like 30 panels. Don't see how anyone could make actual commentary on an issue like this. Anyway, I'm sure the Internet is full of rave Crisis-commentaries. I'm trying to do something different! Well, the problem is that it reads as a non-sequitur, without any context, either thru images or a description of the scene. I don't fault you for wanting to keep things as brief as possible (Kirby knows I get pretty wordy); but, it is a fine line to walk. Things do pick up from this point, as we are done with introduction and are into rising action. From this point on, we are pretty much hitting the moments for which Crisis is remembered and lauded. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,220 
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Post by Confessor on Mar 23, 2018 5:08:20 GMT -5
nero9000 , where are the pictures so that we can tell what you're talking about? Sorry, but this is starting to sound like same review, different day. It was clever once, but now... Can you add actual commentary instead of short takes? I think that would help motivate some good back-and-forth. The pictures are in the comics. The bits are ruined if I overexplain them, and I'd have to scan like 30 panels. Or source the images from the Internet. But either way, yeah, that's right...a review thread takes a lot of work. Shocking, eh? Don't see how anyone could make actual commentary on an issue like this. I completely disagree. Crisis is such an iconic and important comic book event, there's a ton of room for commentary, with things like it's impact on fandom, on the industry, how the decade it was created in effected it, what the creatives behind it were hoping to achieve etc, etc. There is lots of room for a real in-depth critical analysis here. But again, that will take hard work. Anyway, I'm sure the Internet is full of rave Crisis-commentaries. I'm trying to do something different! I don't want to sound overly harsh, but you're trying to do something different and it isn't really working, irrespective of whether you're raving about the series or dissing it. This isn't just me either, as the comments in this thread illustrate...lots of folks here are finding this thread frustrating. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's nothing in your reviews for anyone who isn't already intimately familiar with Crisis to get a grip on. These aren't reviews; they are lists of subjective statements without any context. Please, read shaxper's "Review Threads: Tips and Tricks" thread or at the very least have a look at the many high quality review threads already in the forum. |
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