|
Post by sabongero on Jun 18, 2018 10:28:12 GMT -5
During Galactic Storm around #347, Hawkeye - in his Goliath persona - teamed up with Deathbird. I wrote a letter to Avengers complaining that she would never team up with him after the events of #189. This is the only letter I ever had published - I believe it's in #353. They answered that she just didn't recognize him because he was a giant. Okay... maybe? Sexual assault was apparently a thing for Hawkeye, but some of his victims were in a position to strike back: What issue number was this with Valkyrie? And why was the Enchantress's name mentioned? Was she the main villain of the issue?
|
|
|
Post by brutalis on Jun 18, 2018 10:41:14 GMT -5
This might be a Defender's issue around the time of the Avengers/Defenders fight since it'sdrawn by Sal Buscema. The Enchantress is mentioned because the Valkyrie persona was initially the Enchantress using her magics to transform an earth woman into the warrior woman to attack the Avengers.
|
|
|
Post by sabongero on Jun 18, 2018 10:45:33 GMT -5
This might be a Defender's issue around the time of the Avengers/Defenders fight since it'sdrawn by Sal Buscema. The Enchantress is mentioned because the Valkyrie persona was initially the Enchantress using her magics to transform an earth woman into the warrior woman to attack the Avengers. Thanks brutalis. I'll have to go over some of the Defenders issues I have available.
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Jun 18, 2018 11:05:02 GMT -5
He also planted an unwanted kiss on Wanda around #106 or so - forget the exact issue.
|
|
|
Post by sabongero on Jun 18, 2018 11:11:46 GMT -5
He also planted an unwanted kiss on Wanda around #106 or so - forget the exact issue. So... Clint always had the hots for Wanda. This explains why he slept with an amnesiac Wanda in New Avengers in an issue around the issue number 20's.
|
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,959
|
Post by Crimebuster on Jun 18, 2018 11:55:47 GMT -5
I have a whole theory for Hawkeye's behavior towards women - short version is, I think he's extremely sensitive and insecure, and his periods of womanizing are an overreactive defense mechanism to having his heart broken twice - once when Black Widow, his first love, dumped him, and then a second time when Mockingbird died. He acts totally different with women during the periods he is in those committed relationships, and only acts out when it's broken off by Natasha (becomes a super macho, arrogant caricature - someone who wants it known he doesn't care, and can't be hurt by women) and after Bobbi dies (sleeps around to drown his sorrows, but seems more broken than angry).
I think that modern writers - yes, I mean Bendis and his terrible decision to have Clint sleep with Wanda while she had amnesia - have totally missed the mark on what makes Clint tick when it comes to women. It's sort of irrelevant now, though, as the last ten years of Marvel have proven there's little interest in sticking to established characterizations anyway.
|
|
|
Post by sabongero on Jun 20, 2018 9:40:56 GMT -5
I have a whole theory for Hawkeye's behavior towards women - short version is, I think he's extremely sensitive and insecure, and his periods of womanizing are an overreactive defense mechanism to having his heart broken twice - once when Black Widow, his first love, dumped him, and then a second time when Mockingbird died. He acts totally different with women during the periods he is in those committed relationships, and only acts out when it's broken off by Natasha (becomes a super macho, arrogant caricature - someone who wants it known he doesn't care, and can't be hurt by women) and after Bobbi dies (sleeps around to drown his sorrows, but seems more broken than angry). I think that modern writers - yes, I mean Bendis and his terrible decision to have Clint sleep with Wanda while she had amnesia - have totally missed the mark on what makes Clint tick when it comes to women. It's sort of irrelevant now, though, as the last ten years of Marvel have proven there's little interest in sticking to established characterizations anyway. The New Avengers issue with Hawkeye and an amnesiac Scarlet Witch definitely didn't understand what made Hawkeye tick. It's as if he just showed up at her doorstep to have sex and then leave after the sex. There was no purpose and it didn't show any Hawkeye description as a character. The issue was just for shock value. And it didn't work.
|
|
|
Post by sabongero on Aug 30, 2019 15:57:51 GMT -5
Avengers #228"Trial and Error!" 0.60 ¢ @ February 1983 Writer: Roger Stern Penciler: Al Milgrom Inker: Brett Breeding Colorist: Christie Scheele Letterer: Jim Novak Editor: Mark Gruenwald Editor-in-Chief: Jim Shooter Synopsis: The media covered Hank Pym's trial, but aside from giving his brief character origins, they also somewhat portrayed Hank Pym negatively on the television news coverage. An angry She-Hulk shut the television off finding something to let off steam from the negative tv coverage. She came in one of the downstairs Avengers Mansion gym where Captain America and the new (at the time she was new) Captain Marvel just finished practicing simulated combat. Captain America excused himself that duty called, and Captain Marvel and She-Hulk had a little interaction before Captain Marvel told her she's going home... to New Orleans since she can fly at the speed of light. Peeking outside the window, She-Hulk saw Thor arrive with The Wasp, who grew to human size at the lawn. He's there to comfort her, but give her enough space, eliciting tears from Janet. An enraged She-Hulk seeing Janet holding in her emotions got ticked off and walked out of the compound needing to jog to let of steam. Arriving at Stark International, Captain America asked Iron Man if they can have a little talk. Iron Man, in the middle of installing a huge component for a mind-scanner held talks with The Captain. Both concerned for Pym, Hank wanted to prove Pym was under the influence of Moondragon who messed with The Avengers minds, was under the influence when he committed the crimes he's under trial. Even The Vision and Scarlett Witch, both concerned for Pym, could do nothing but watch helplessly as the trial unfolds on television. At Egghead's facility, the reformation of the new Masters of Evil (Egghead, Moonstone, Radioactive Man, Tiger Shark, Shocker, and The Beetle) was at hand, but not smooth as they all almost came to blows. Meanwhile, Hawkeye contemplates in his apartment why he wasn't called on to testify. Perhaps because he wasn't present during Pym's crime. At the trial on day four, all the Avengers were present to support Hank Pym. The Masters of Evil crash the trial to break out Hank Pym. They did battle with the Avengers. It was stalemate at first. Then the Avengers were able to get the best of them, but they took off with Hank Pym, while leaving behind a brainwashed Shocker who told them that this escape was planned by Hank Pym. At Egghead's headquarters, an enraged Pym can't believe what happened, but seeing a television report of how he planned his escape utilizing the Masters of Evil, he conceded to Egghead and agreed to help them and join them, since he has no choice now. Comments: Al Milgrom's cover showing the different Avengers with varying emotions tattoo-ed on their faces. Obviously, Janet would be in shock seeing the love of her life under trial. But it is very surprising Hawkeye is portrayed comforting Janet next to him as if an older brother comforting a younger sister. Captain America with just a stern looking facing forward, and Thor with only half his face shown, cannot decipher his emotions. However, on the far left side, there is no doubt about She-Hulk's smugness with arms also folded as if already personally passing the guilty judgement on Hank Pym. It's too bad, because inside the comic book issue, She-Hulk was pro-Hank Pym. The super-villains are a fickle lot. They can never seem to get along and gel very well and almost came to blows with each other before teaming up. She-Hulk is portrayed as a rookie and at the same time always in a raging mood just about to tear into things just like The Hulk. You can tell Roger Stern really wrote the Avengers as a family with members going out of their way to help support a member who is on trial for a crime. For all their superpowers, they are helpless to get Pym out of this jam. Al Milgrom's pencils are serviceable, and nothing out of the ordinary. But it gets the job done in eliciting the emotions from the varying Avengers portrayals. The only drawback is The Wasp's costume. One leg covered in spandex and the other is not and just a vague white costume with a giant "W"-like symbol. A lot of creative thought process went into creating this particular Wasp costume (sarcasm!).
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Aug 30, 2019 20:57:42 GMT -5
Ever since his 1st appearance as a Thor villain it was established the Gargoyle's transmutation of people to stone only lasts 1 hour. While it can be considered a mark against them as writers not including this power factoid within the story it is easy to understand them skipping or missing it with having so much happen in these 2 issues. JACK KIRBY knew this, he created the character.
Roger Stern (not to mention John Byrne, who, I presume, "contributed" here) both prided themselves on "continuity. But David Michelinie (who-- presumably-- supplied the dialogue, and not sure how much more or less else) apparently DIDN'T. Even so-- Roger Stern, as editor, clearly screwed up by not picking up on this-- and unlike the myriad number of times he stuck his nose in where it didn't belong-- NEITHER did Jim "BECAUSE I SAY SO!" Shooter.
I really hated these issues. Aside from anything else, Dan Green's inks had gone TO HELL at this point, and he was murdering EVERYONE whose pencils he touched-- including John Byrne. It was a real relief when he switched over to pencilling on DR. STRANGE. Damn, he was GOOD at that!
Byrne "casting" Lois Lane and having her apartment be the one from the Christopher Reeve movies may have been "cute", but it was also a distraction from an already dodgy story.
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Aug 30, 2019 21:06:39 GMT -5
For several years, Roger Stern had been somewhat hit-and-miss, but mostly on the good side. It was nice when things really picked up for him, and he wound up doing several regular series, ALL of which he was doing FAR better than had been for years before he took over.
THE AVENGERS was an extreme case. While there were some good issues here and there, I think I'd put most of the "good" down to George Perez' contributions. He had a way of making damn near every writer he ever worked with look like they knew what they were doing.
The exception was Steve Englehart. HE DID know what he was doing, with or without Perez.
To me, AVENGERS had been in an almost steady state of CHAOS since Gerry Conway got on Englehart's nerves so much he had a fit and decided to QUIT comics entirely. (Which didn't quite work out at the time.)
|
|
|
Post by sabongero on Aug 30, 2019 21:44:14 GMT -5
To me, AVENGERS had been in an almost steady state of CHAOS since Gerry Conway got on Englehart's nerves so much he had a fit and decided to QUIT comics entirely. (Which didn't quite work out at the time.) Interesting. What was the story behind how Conway got on Englehart's nerves... so much that it drove him to quit the comic book industry at the time?
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 31, 2019 3:19:11 GMT -5
I have a whole theory for Hawkeye's behavior towards women - short version is, I think he's extremely sensitive and insecure, and his periods of womanizing are an overreactive defense mechanism to having his heart broken twice - once when Black Widow, his first love, dumped him, and then a second time when Mockingbird died. He acts totally different with women during the periods he is in those committed relationships, and only acts out when it's broken off by Natasha (becomes a super macho, arrogant caricature - someone who wants it known he doesn't care, and can't be hurt by women) and after Bobbi dies (sleeps around to drown his sorrows, but seems more broken than angry). I think that modern writers - yes, I mean Bendis and his terrible decision to have Clint sleep with Wanda while she had amnesia - have totally missed the mark on what makes Clint tick when it comes to women. It's sort of irrelevant now, though, as the last ten years of Marvel have proven there's little interest in sticking to established characterizations anyway. Good observation. That rings really true. (Although, uh... I can't imagine any characters less consistent than Mockingbird in the '70s and the Scarlet Witch basically always. I'm happy to see Marvel continue their proud tradition of random, nonsensical character regression into the 21st century. I find comforting consistency in their constant inconsistency. So Hawkeye's weirdly consistent logical character growth through his first 30 years of existence really bugged me. I'm glad they made him over in the traditional Marvel manner, where nothing he does makes sense.)
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Aug 31, 2019 9:57:29 GMT -5
I was at an Ithacon when someone asked Stern about writing the Avengers Marvel style, and he pulled out some pencil pages he'd just received--forgot of they were originals or Xeroxes--and he explained about looking at what the artist was trying to convey, then determining who should be talking and what they would be saying. He just started riffing in a somewhat exaggerated way--lots of "thee" and "thou" for Thor--the dialog he'd use.
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Aug 31, 2019 15:27:38 GMT -5
Interesting. What was the story behind how Conway got on Englehart's nerves... so much that it drove him to quit the comic book industry at the time? After ASM #149, Conway went to DC, where he had quite some success as a writer, and, I think, editor.
Awhile later, he returned to Marvel, to take over the position of Editor-In-Chief. That might have been fine... except, apparently, he also wanted to make money on the side as a writer. In his position as EIC, he was able to essentially KICK several successful creative teams right OFF of books... so HE could do them instead.
This included GHOST RIDER (bye bye Tony Isabella); DAREDEVIL (up yours, Marv Wolfman!); THE DEFENDERS (hasta la vista, Steve Gerber AND Sal Buscema!! --insanely enough, he KEPT Klaus Janson in place, whose inks I hated); IRON MAN (I can't even remember who Conway replaced on that one-- HEH); and well, he REALLY wanted to do THE AVENGERS. On top of this, Conway also started LOGAN'S RUN and MS. MARVEL.
Personally, I don't think anyone could have possibly written that many books (or even supplied that many "plots"-- many of which others wound up doing the dialogue for) in such a short space of time. My suspicion is that he had been STOCK-PILING scripts while working on DC, planning a blitzkrieg when he went back to Marvel, who had refused to give him an Editor position earlier, and repeatedly interfered with his run on SPIDER-MAN. My own phrase for what happened was... "REVENGE is no basis for an editorial regime."
In an interview I read maybe 20 or so years back, Steve Englehart revealed how Conway kept nit-picking him and hassling him over every single detail on AVENGERS-- the way those 2 A-HOLES running the BBC in the 80s did with John Nathan-Turner & Robert Holmes on DOCTOR WHO. Englehart had just spent an entire year doing a long storyline about the group looking for a "new line-up", and was right on the verge of deciding who was gonna be in it. But along the way, new artist George Perez-- who's picked up Rich Buckler's worst habit of getting on too many books at once and blowing deadlines on all of them-- blew his 2nd deadline (at least) in 6 months. By the time "The Decision" issue came out, a month late, Englehart was GONE!! Conway not only took over AVENGERS, but CAPTAIN MARVEL and SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP at the same time... while Marv Wolfman wound up taking over DR. STRANGE right in the middle of a story Englehart had been doing.
So much chaos-- many of these books never quite recovered from it-- and yet, in only about 2 MONTHS, Conway went back to DC!!! (Some claim 2 weeks, but I don't believe that.) But the damage had been done.
Conway's swift departure left openings-- Jim Shooter took over GHOST RIDER, DAREDEVIL and AVENGERS; Bill Mantlo got IRON MAN and SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP; Chris Claremont got MS. MARVEL; David Anthony Kraft got LOGAN'S RUN and DEFENDERS. The latter was a shock, as within 6 months, Kraft became my favorite writer on the book!! Never saw that coming.
Englehart decided to do ONE year at DC before quitting the biz to become a novelist... and dumped "everything" he had into those books. DAMN, they were good!!!!!!! DETECTIVE, MISTER MIRACLE and JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA. But I would have preferred if he'd stayed at Marvel. He was never quite the same when he came back to comics. And since then, I've found he's been very "apologetic" and forgiving toward those who he had said, in earlier interviews, had really SCREWED him over.
Eventually, Conway began working in TV, which I saw as a win-win situation. He wound up doing MUCH better work for TV than he had ever done in comics... and comics fan no longer had to put up with his sub-par work.
I'm of the opinion that Jim Shooter's run on AVENGERS was and is looked on with such fondness... to a large degree, by comparison to who he replaced. (But, that's me. )
How the HELL do I remember all this so clearly without looking it up??? (Dont' ask me! )
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 2:24:42 GMT -5
The New Avengers issue with Hawkeye and an amnesiac Scarlet Witch definitely didn't understand what made Hawkeye tick. It's as if he just showed up at her doorstep to have sex and then leave after the sex. There was no purpose and it didn't show any Hawkeye description as a character. The issue was just for shock value. And it didn't work. Allan Heinberg obviously agreed - that assignation (which never made any sense for Wanda's return) was retconned in an issue of Avengers: Children's Crusade to be Hawkeye humping a Doombot
|
|