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Post by profh0011 on Sept 1, 2019 10:07:43 GMT -5
"Doombot"  AHHH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 1, 2019 12:01:25 GMT -5
It's retcons like that , that weaken comics and leaves them without real consequences. Too bad.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Sept 1, 2019 12:05:05 GMT -5
After ASM #149, Conway went to DC, where he had quite some success as a writer, and, I think, editor. Awhile later, he returned to Marvel, to take over the position of Editor-In-Chief. That might have been fine... except, apparently, he also wanted to make money on the side as a writer. In his position as EIC, he was able to essentially KICK several successful creative teams right OFF of books... so HE could do them instead. This included GHOST RIDER (bye bye Tony Isabella); DAREDEVIL (up yours, Marv Wolfman!); THE DEFENDERS (hasta la vista, Steve Gerber AND Sal Buscema!! --insanely enough, he KEPT Klaus Janson in place, whose inks I hated); IRON MAN (I can't even remember who Conway replaced on that one-- HEH); and well, he REALLY wanted to do THE AVENGERS. On top of this, Conway also started LOGAN'S RUN and MS. MARVEL. Personally, I don't think anyone could have possibly written that many books (or even supplied that many "plots"-- many of which others wound up doing the dialogue for) in such a short space of time. My suspicion is that he had been STOCK-PILING scripts while working on DC, planning a blitzkrieg when he went back to Marvel, who had refused to give him an Editor position earlier, and repeatedly interfered with his run on SPIDER-MAN. My own phrase for what happened was... "REVENGE is no basis for an editorial regime."
In an interview I read maybe 20 or so years back, Steve Englehart revealed how Conway kept nit-picking him and hassling him over every single detail on AVENGERS-- the way those 2 A-HOLES running the BBC in the 80s did with John Nathan-Turner & Robert Holmes on DOCTOR WHO. Englehart had just spent an entire year doing a long storyline about the group looking for a "new line-up", and was right on the verge of deciding who was gonna be in it. But along the way, new artist George Perez-- who's picked up Rich Buckler's worst habit of getting on too many books at once and blowing deadlines on all of them-- blew his 2nd deadline (at least) in 6 months. By the time "The Decision" issue came out, a month late, Englehart was GONE!! Conway not only took over AVENGERS, but CAPTAIN MARVEL and SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP at the same time... while Marv Wolfman wound up taking over DR. STRANGE right in the middle of a story Englehart had been doing. So much chaos-- many of these books never quite recovered from it-- and yet, in only about 2 MONTHS, Conway went back to DC!!! (Some claim 2 weeks, but I don't believe that.) But the damage had been done. Conway's swift departure left openings-- Jim Shooter took over GHOST RIDER, DAREDEVIL and AVENGERS; Bill Mantlo got IRON MAN and SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP; Chris Claremont got MS. MARVEL; David Anthony Kraft got LOGAN'S RUN and DEFENDERS. The latter was a shock, as within 6 months, Kraft became my favorite writer on the book!! Never saw that coming. Wolfman seems to have survived for several months longer than the others, writing DD until #143, cover dated March 1977, before we got two Conway-plotted issues. Conway didn't plot or script any SVTU between Englehart's and Mantlo's runs, although he did write Avengers #154 and 155 which crossed over with SVTU #9 and 10 by Mantlo. |
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 2, 2019 7:55:48 GMT -5
I remember how Wolfman started a long, rambling, directionless storyline when he took over DR. STRANGE, totally derailing the 2nd half of Englehart's then-current story, and powering-down the hero. History repeated itself from the previous long ramble (the one started by Barry Smith and finished by Englehart, with lots of Gardner Fox in the middle). Several issues in, Wolfman decided to shove an ANNUAL that Craig Russell had created ENTIRELY on his own, on spec, and had worked on for several years. It had NOTHING to do with Wolfman's storyline, and really did not belong there. Worse, Wolfman removed a pile of pages, then, seriously OVER-WROTE the dialogue, almost completely murdering Russell's work. Russell then pulled a stunt that got him nearly black-balled for a period, and, apparently, never worked with Wolfman again. (Years later, Russell actually RE-DID that entire story FROM SCRATCH-- with MUCH better art and writing-- and it was published as a one-shot. Crazy stuff!)
Soon after this, apparently completely lost, Wolfman wandered off, and Jim Starlin came in to "FIX" his mess. The shame was that Starlin did story & layouts, but never did full pencils on the book! Having pointed the way toward the finale, HE then left, replaced by newcomer Roger Stern!! (Gee, sorta brings this sideline back on-topic, HMM? Heh.)
I loved what he was doing for awhile there-- the unusual team of Tom Sutton & Ernie Chan really seemed to click, and for a bit, he followed the path of Bill Everett's short run, by bringing Doc a bit more down to Earth and more involved with the Marvel Universe. But then he started having trouble keeping a steady art team together, and before long, HIS stories started losing direction. He left, the book completely fell apart in the hands of Chris Claremont, but eventually, Stern came back for a 2nd run which went FAR smoother.
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 2, 2019 8:01:50 GMT -5
"Conway didn't plot or script any SVTU between Englehart's and Mantlo's runs, although he did write Avengers #154 and 155 which crossed over with SVTU #9 and 10 by Mantlo."
You're RIGHT! It must have just SEEMED like Conway did them. Englehart was the ONLY writer on the entire run of that book who seemed to know what he was doing, and, frankly, Conway was indirectly responsible for Englehart's ABRUPT departure.
You know, much as I loved Englehart's writing back then, I can't help but shake my head whenever I think about what happened. What I mean is, I've been in SEVERAL really awful job situations in my life... and generally, have PUT UP with far worse for much longer. I'm sure he couldn't have known this, but had Englehart just STUCK it out a couple months, Conway would have been GONE, and Englehart's run at Marvel could have gone on a LOT longer.
I sometimes wonder what a long, long run of Englehart & Perez on AVENGERS might have been like.
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Post by electricmastro on Sept 2, 2019 13:44:51 GMT -5
During Galactic Storm around #347, Hawkeye - in his Goliath persona - teamed up with Deathbird. I wrote a letter to Avengers complaining that she would never team up with him after the events of #189. This is the only letter I ever had published - I believe it's in #353. They answered that she just didn't recognize him because he was a giant. Okay... maybe? Sexual assault was apparently a thing for Hawkeye, but some of his victims were in a position to strike back:  Do you think that there's a way to responsibly do a womanizing/flirtatious sort of character without coming off as a bad person? I get the feeling there is, but for some reason, I'm not exactly sure how to put it into words. |
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 2, 2019 14:10:22 GMT -5
Whatever it is, I'm sure grabbing a woman and PLANTING one on her mouth unexpectedly ISN'T it!  |
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Post by electricmastro on Sept 2, 2019 14:25:46 GMT -5
Whatever it is, I'm sure grabbing a woman and PLANTING one on her mouth unexpectedly ISN'T it! Yeah, I get that, though I was talking more in general, like with womanizing characters like James Bond for example. Also, on a related note, I suppose this is also worth mentioning (Avengers #222).  |
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Post by rberman on Sept 2, 2019 19:22:56 GMT -5
Do you think that there's a way to responsibly do a womanizing/flirtatious sort of character without coming off as a bad person? I get the feeling there is, but for some reason, I'm not exactly sure how to put it into words. Talking may be flirting. Touching someone without permission is more likely to be battery. So this is flirting:  But this is battery:  |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 2, 2019 19:29:40 GMT -5
The New Avengers issue with Hawkeye and an amnesiac Scarlet Witch definitely didn't understand what made Hawkeye tick. It's as if he just showed up at her doorstep to have sex and then leave after the sex. There was no purpose and it didn't show any Hawkeye description as a character. The issue was just for shock value. And it didn't work. Allan Heinberg obviously agreed - that assignation (which never made any sense for Wanda's return) was retconned in an issue of Avengers: Children's Crusade to be Hawkeye humping a Doombot“See Wanda? You’re not the only one humping robots! We have so much in common!”  |
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Post by berkley on Sept 2, 2019 21:26:49 GMT -5
For my money, neither the Avengers nor Doctor Strange ever recovered as series from Englehart's abrupt departure. I don't think either one ever enjoyed what I'd consider a classic run afterwards, as far as the writing is concerned, though the first Shooter/Perez Avengers qualifies for Perez's artwork.
Doctor Strange in particular is a character that I think really needs a special kind of writer to do it justice. It would have taken someone like Alan Moore in the 80s - but can you imagine Alan Moore working for Shooter's Marvel?
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Post by electricmastro on Sept 2, 2019 22:00:46 GMT -5
Do you think that there's a way to responsibly do a womanizing/flirtatious sort of character without coming off as a bad person? I get the feeling there is, but for some reason, I'm not exactly sure how to put it into words. Talking may be flirting. Touching someone without permission is more likely to be battery. So this is flirting: But this is battery: That's a good way of defining it I think. The fact they had Hawkeye doing that might have been an attempt to call back to his days when he was a villain and still comes across as a jerkbutt even long after the fact, even if he was doing it to a villain like Deathbird. If anything, it probably comes across as less questionable if he were to do that to a consenting partner he was already in a relationship with who's permissive with kisses like that, and be by the same measure if said partner were to do it to him. |
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 3, 2019 6:24:10 GMT -5
For my money, neither the Avengers nor Doctor Strange ever recovered as series from Englehart's abrupt departure. I don't think either one ever enjoyed what I'd consider a classic run afterwards, as far as the writing is concerned, though the first Shooter/Perez Avengers qualifies for Perez's artwork. Doctor Strange in particular is a character that I think really needs a special kind of writer to do it justice. It would have taken someone like Alan Moore in the 80s - but can you imagine Alan Moore working for Shooter's Marvel? This is almost a shock to read. Over at another board (One I have been "permanently banned" from-- HAH!!) "everyone" seemed to be sharing the generally enforced opinion that Roger Stern's 2nd run was "the" classic, best-ever run on the series, to the point where they seemed to act like it was the one time when the series "finally got good".
Myself, I always saw that run as consistency following chaos... much like his runs on AVENGERS and AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. And I seemed to be the only one who noticed that, in all 3 cases, Stern-- almost inexplicably in my eyes-- went out of his way to "permanently" break up a long-time romantic relationship early in his runs. I wondered what the hell was going on there.
I figured what happened in AVENGERS was probably Jim Shooter's dictatorial edict. The other 2, they still make me wonder.
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 3, 2019 6:28:04 GMT -5
"special kind of writer"No kidding. STEVE DITKO's run of DR. STRANGE has been the one run of any Marvel series I've read and re-read more than any other. Which kind of flips me out. STEVE DITKO, of course, created the series entirely on his own, on spec-- and WROTE every episode of it he worked on. I suspect his editor didn't screw it over much, because he didn't UNDERSTAND what Ditko was doing, and figured he had "bigger" fish to burn to a crisp (heehee). 
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Post by sabongero on Oct 13, 2019 20:04:10 GMT -5
 Avengers #229"Final Curtain!" 0.60 ¢ @ March 1983 Writer: Roger Stern Penciler: Al Milgrom Inker: Joe Sinnott Colorist: Christie Scheele Letterer: Jim Novak Editor: Mark Gruenwald Editor-in-Chief: Jim Shooter Synopsis: A fugitive Henry Pym is working at a lab with the Masters of Evil who kidnapped him from his trial and left a brainwashed Shocker to lie that he's in cahoots with Egghead and his crew, thus setting him up. Right now he's helpless and just tries to go with them for now. In New Orleans, the new Captain Marvel, Monica Rambeau, saw on television what transpired and also hearing about Iron Man's disappearance, put on her costume and headed to Avengers Mansion in blinding speed. Arriving at Avengers Mansion, Captain Marvel found Thor and Captain America who are not themselves and seem to be "down" due to the current events of a disgraced Avenger (Hank Pym), a missing Avenger (Iron Man), and a suddenly de-powered Avenger (She Hulk). In on eof the study rooms in the mansion, Janet Van Dyne is consoling a dejected and helpless feeling Jennifer who try as she might, cannot transform into the She Hulk. Jan was told by Jarvis the butler that she has a call and left the study room to get it, while Hawkeye remained vowing to get Jennifer on her feet and see how he can help her. Downstairs it was Scott Lang who wanted to talk to Janet and brought along a cerebral helmet from Tony Stark. He offered to stay and help out as Ant-Man but Janet turned down his offer. Captain America knew about it as it was supposed to be used to clear Henry Pym during the trial but dejectedly said now it's no use. Captain Marvel not believing these Avengers acting dejected and low ran off her mouth and borderline condescendingly told off Janet, Cap and Thor, which Thor warned her that she is still talking to the Avengers and to take care. But Janet interjected immediately and wanted to hear out Captain Marvel. Captain Marvel meant well and gave them a suggestion. Perhaps the helmet contraption from Tony Stark that was brought by Scott Lang a little earlier, can be used on The Shocker, and that the it can prove Hank Pym did not orchestrate the breakout. Meanwhile, in another part of Avengers Mansion, Hawkeye ridiculed Jennifer (aka She-Hulk in human form) over and over. It reached the point where Jennifer was angered and kept slapping Hawkeye in the face, and Hawkeye responded with a louder laughter each time. Until, Hawkeye was seen flying and crashing through the hallway. In her anger, Jennifer turned back into the She-Hulk. Hawkeye's plan worked, albeit painfully on his end. The other Avengers arrived and the team went to where The Shocker was incarcerated and tried the helmet on Shocker, where the super-villain remembered everything and blurted out that Egghead set him up to take the fall and also set up Henry Pym. At Egghead's HQ, Henry Pym has completed the machine that was supposed to prolong life. The Masters of Evil and Egghead didn't trust him, and wanted the contraption tried on Henry Pym as the guinea pig. With Pym strapped to the machine, it turned on, and instead of what they expected, Henry Pym turned the tables on them. It was a force field with assault weapons. He managed to take down the whole Masters of Evil in less than ten minutes. After all he had three days to prepare the machine to take down each member of the Masters of Evil. Egghead found himself cowering in fear hiding behind a table, as each member of the Masters of Evil was taken down. Above in the streets, the Avengers arrived and was formulating a game plane to assault Egghead's HQ, when suddenly an out of control super-villain, the Beetle crashed through the house and towards them. Hawkeye went through the hole caused by the Beetle as the Avengers forgo entering secretly and just make their way down to the sub-levels of the house. Hawkeye found the Masters of Evil waylaid and a victorious Henry Pym telling Egghead what he did, and how Egghead manipulated to make him look like a criminal. As Henry Pym turned to away, Egghead pulled a weapon and was about to shoot and kill Henry Pym from behind, when Hawkeye shot at the weapon to disarm Egghead, and the weapon discharged and Egghead fell to the ground. As Hawkeye approached Pym to let him know all is okay and there's enough evidence to clear him and send Egghead to prison, Henry just told him Egghead is dead. Comments: This issue not only cleared Henry Pym was in cahoots with the Masters of Evil, but it showed the resiliency of the character of Henry Pym. Not all victories are achieved via slugfests and brawn, but can also be achieved by using your mind to achieve results. This is what this issue was all about. Henry Pym had three days to build a machine to take down a super-villain team in par with the strength of the Avengers team, all by himself, by carefully assessing the weakness of each opponent and how to neutralize each one. Another one was Hawkeye. Jennifer couldn't transform herself willingly to She-Hulk and felt useless and depressed. Hawkeye, acting like a "jerk" kept putting Jennifer down and verbally made fun of her, and ridiculed her so much with his mocking laughter that in her anger, she transformed into She-Hulk. This was Hawkeye's plan to help Jennifer turn to the She-Hulk, and it worked. Again using brains over brawn. And when Thor and Captain America were feeling "down" as things were going bad for the Avengers. The new Captain Marvel, was harsh in her words toward them, but also had thought out of the box and suggested that perhaps utilizing the helmet on the Shocker can give them the answers they needed to clear Henry Pym, and explain all the things that happened in the last few days. Again mind over brawn. This was a brilliantly written issue by Roger Stern. It's good to utilize the stronger points of several Avengers in using mind over brawn, and it made for a more interesting and rewarding story to read for the reader. |
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AHHH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
