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Post by profh0011 on Oct 13, 2019 21:42:11 GMT -5
I know many Marvel fans would violently disagree with me... but to me, Roger Stern finally put THE AVENGERS on a level it hadn't been since Steve Englehart suddenly left without warning several years earlier. It's just my own personal taste, but looking back, I'd rather forget everything that happened in between.
Especially Jim Shooter's brief, 2nd, mean-spirited run.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2019 22:17:05 GMT -5
I know many Marvel fans would violently disagree with me... but to me, Roger Stern finally put THE AVENGERS on a level it hadn't been since Steve Englehart suddenly left without warning several years earlier. It's just my own personal taste, but looking back, I'd rather forget everything that happened in between. Especially Jim Shooter's brief, 2nd, mean-spirited run. It's one of the better runs and I do like Stern's work on it. I was disappointed of Englehart's departure and all that. So, I understand your position and I do support it. You are not alone here.  |
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Post by berkley on Oct 14, 2019 0:13:11 GMT -5
I wasn't reading any Marvel comics by the time Stern took over the Avengers and thus missed his run altogether, but I might go back and read at least parts of it one of these days: a lot of the stuff from the 80s that didn't attract me at the time is starting to look more interesting at this late stage as kind of the last gasp of traditional 60s/70s style superhero comics, if that makes any sense.
That's the plus side, from my POV. The downside is that several storylines or characters turns I've heard or read about online don't sound good to me, so I'm not sure I really want to subject myself to those issues. I'll just have to take the plunge one of these days and see it it goes.
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Post by zaku on Oct 14, 2019 3:03:55 GMT -5
Sexual assault was apparently a thing for Hawkeye, but some of his victims were in a position to strike back:  Where is the HR when you need it? But this is battery:  Serious question. There is any modern comics where someone asked Hawkeye to be accountable for his sexual assaults? |
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 14, 2019 5:52:33 GMT -5
I know many Marvel fans would violently disagree with me... but to me, Roger Stern finally put THE AVENGERS on a level it hadn't been since Steve Englehart suddenly left without warning several years earlier. It's just my own personal taste, but looking back, I'd rather forget everything that happened in between. Especially Jim Shooter's brief, 2nd, mean-spirited run. I do disagree with you , without the violence. The fall of Hank Pym is one of my favorite storylines of all time and it wouldn't have been unless it included the friction of Hanks breakdown. Stern was called upon to finish that story. |
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 14, 2019 13:07:00 GMT -5
I wish I could remember who it was online who, some years ago, described Jim Shooter's apparent attitude toward characters as being "as if he hated them". While many writers put characters thru hell and have them come out the other side, Shooter had a regular habit of "dumping them into hell and then leaving them there". On several occasions, he would go out of his way to inflict SERIOUS damage on characters' lives, then walk away, and expect someone else to fix the MESS he started.
This kind of character-destructive behavior was also practiced at DC, where Denny O'Neil made an entire career out of it... and Kevin Dooley not only did it, he blamed his writers and his readers while he was at it. When Dooley completely derailed Hal Jordan (ONE MORE TIME!) in GREEN LANTERN, editorial took it further by INSISTING that what he did was "permanent", and any suggestion of "fixing" it was not even allowed.
Until Dooley was no longer working in comics, of course...........
As for Shooter, I have no interest in ever reading anything he might write, ever again.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Oct 14, 2019 13:53:05 GMT -5
For me, Stern's run is the last great Avengers run from the original series. I also personally find both Shooter eras to be superior to Englehart. That's not meant as disrespect, as I also think Englehart's run is a gold plated classic. But Shooter's first run is up there among the best ever, and his second run is great, even if he bailed out on both runs and other people had to finish them off.
For me, Avengers #1-285 is about the best sustained long term run in superhero comics, 25+ years of great stories. My personal hierarchy of Avengers writers is:
1. Roy Thomas
2. Jim Shooter
3. Steve Englehart
4. Roger Stern
5. Kurt Busiek
6. Stan Lee
then a good ways behind those 6 hall of famers would be Michilinie, Conway, and Harras. I love Simonson on other books, but did not like his Avengers run - who knows what it might have been if he ever got the chance to do the stories he really wanted to. The rest of the regular writers for the series don't rate, though there are some occasional one-off writers that had nice stories along the way.
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Post by badwolf on Oct 14, 2019 14:19:31 GMT -5
Not a fan of Shooter or Englehart. My favorite two runs are Stern's and Michelinie's.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 14, 2019 16:29:07 GMT -5
even if he bailed out on both runs and other people had to finish them off. You know, I forgot he did that... TWICE!!!  |
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 14, 2019 16:51:33 GMT -5
The ESSENTIAL books allowed me, after decades, to finally catch on the immense, long run by Roy Thomas. I almost wish I hadn't. Roy Thomas has the distinction of being a guy who learned his job on the job. I know he's not the only one, but familiarizing myself with his early work in a comprehensive way due to MASTERWORKS and ESSENTIAL books really made it obvious. Thomas also has certain personal quirks and tics which, I'm afraid, annoy the living hell out of me... and it seems they do so more as the years go by. And boy, were they on display for most of his AVENGERS run. Let me cut to the chase... I felt Roy FINALLY "got good" when THE VISION debuted. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but it seems Roy got his bad habits relatively under control (like cannibalism in the Royal Navy-- Monty Python joke), and he really began to impress me. I suppose it should be no surprise that this coincided with the arrival not only of JOHN BUSCEMA, arguably Thomas' #1 collaborator (and due to Thomas' version of "The Marvel Method", none of us may EVER know exactly what or how much Buscema "contributed" to the stories), and, George Klein, one of my all-time favorite Buscema inkers, who was FIRED by Carmine Infantino as part of a movement at DC someone once described sarcastically as " trying to WEED OUT THE OLD GUYS". Thomas-Buscema-Klein was PURE GOLD to my eyes. And, until I got those ESSENTIAL books, I had not really been aware of how short-lived their run was. It was broken up prematurely, because, of all things-- Marvel's editor decided he wanted Buscema doing AMAZING SPIDER-MAN-- a book Buscema later said he "HATED" doing. Buscema wound up doing 10 issues of that book (with a couple of short breaks in the middle somewhere), before returning to THE AVENGERS, and for his 2nd run being teamed with TOM PALMER-- oooooooh. In between, Klein was teamed with other, less appropriate pencillers... until he suddenly PASSED away. One has to wonder what a proper healthcare system might have done in that and countless other cases. We also got about half a year of Sal Buscema teamed with Sam Grainger (just in from the fanzines!), back when Sal was still doing full pencils, and possibly more imressive than he's ever been since. The last year, at least, of Thomas' run, I found all of his worst traits as a writer had come back, worse than before... and when Englehart took over, it was like a gigantic moment of relief for me, reading those things. EVEN when Englehart clearly hadn't figured out yet what the hell he was doing-- I STILL liked his work BETTER than Thomas, for most of his run. I don't think I've ever taken the time to put all this into words online before. Thank you for your indulgence.  |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 14, 2019 19:39:59 GMT -5
I know many Marvel fans would violently disagree with me... but to me, Roger Stern finally put THE AVENGERS on a level it hadn't been since Steve Englehart suddenly left without warning several years earlier. It's just my own personal taste, but looking back, I'd rather forget everything that happened in between. Especially Jim Shooter's brief, 2nd, mean-spirited run. I personally saw Stern’s run as a smooth continuation of Shooter’s second term (which I actually enjoyed a lot). As far as I’m concernes, what he brought that had been lacking is a sense of reliability, as Shooter’s second run was rife with distracting fill-ins. I just wish that there had been less of Milgrom’s art during that period. I feel that The Avengers needs a really tight penciller, someone like Adams, Perez, Byrne or even Buckler. |
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Post by electricmastro on Oct 19, 2019 0:41:55 GMT -5
Sexual assault was apparently a thing for Hawkeye, but some of his victims were in a position to strike back: Where is the HR when you need it? But this is battery: Serious question. There is any modern comics where someone asked Hawkeye to be accountable for his sexual assaults? Although I can definitely understand how it can be written better, I always saw Hawkeye as someone struggling with his self-reassurance and self-acceptance in transitioning from his villain persona, which I think more or less was complete by the time he married Mockingbird. Also, I imagine She-Hulk helped knock down his ego a peg or two.  |
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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2020 18:15:06 GMT -5
 Avengers #230"The Last Farewell" 0.60 ¢ @ April 1983 Writer: Roger Stern Penciler: Al Milgrom Inker: Joe Sinnott Colorist: Christie Scheele Letterer: Jim Novak Editor: Mark Gruenwald Editor-in-Chief: Jim Shooter Synopsis: Egghead is dead, accidental of course. Hawkeye acted in defense of Henry Pym, with Pym as witness. Moonstone tried to escape but surrendered herself when Captain America, Thor, She-Hulk, and The Wasp blocked her path. With the Beetle and Moonstone cooperating after a plea bargain, Henry Pym was exonerated of all charges against him in court. Furthermore, Hawkeye was also found innocent of murder in a separate trial. Elsewhere, we saw an interesting brief encounter where a corrections officer was escorting The Beetle to his cell, and accidentally bumping to another inmate and unknown to them, the fake skin on the inmate's forearm was removed and revealed a living wooden arm. And in Titan, Eros was released by Elysius from his promise to Captain Mar-vell, citing his need to frolic. And frolic he will, with his choice of worlds... deciding on Earth. Just beyond New York harbor, Dr. Pym was joined by Egghead's niece, Trish, and her companion as they scattered Egghead's ashes into the ocean, with Henry Pym delivering the eulogy, and Trish not grieving for her uncle that has done her so much harm in the past, including an amputated arm from the result of a car explosion. Pym then knew he had one more thing to do. Dr. Henry Pym arrived at Avengers Mansion where he faced an Avengers hearing. He was cleared. And then he acted as counsel to Hawkeye's defense. He was cleared as well. Jarvis had prepared his luggages along with a suitcase of his Yellowjacket costume, which he gave Captain America. Before he could leave, he was met by his former teammates, who gave him and Janet Van Dyne some privacy. They had a heartwrenching goodbye. And Henry Pym left the facility. Comments: This was a non-action issue full of drama and irony. Henry Pym's eulogy and scattering the ashes in the ocean of one of his Rogues Gallery was something you didn't expect. At the same time, that two page goodbye between Henry Pym and Janet Van Dyne was heartfelt and at the same time broke your heart, especially to readers who have experienced a break-up with a relationship that was supposed to last "forever." One cannot feel anything but utter sadness with the ending as a look of gloom filled the room by the window as they watched Henry leave the front of Avengers Mansion in a car. A somewhat "quiet" issue done well. Only one question remained unanswered, how come Iron Man didn't respond to the Avengers' call three times? |
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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 23, 2020 15:06:51 GMT -5
 Avengers #189
Comments: The definition of gadfly is an annoying person, especially one who provokes others into action through criticism. When Captain America told Falcon not to worry about Hawkeye, and to let Mr. Gyrich, the government gadlfy, know that he's back with the team. And the Avengers can't stand him, but have to put up with him. Not everything is kosher among the members. Hawkeye didn't take too kindly to the government replacing his active roster status with that of the Falcon. Things worked out for him with a cushy job at Cross Technological Enterprises, which saw him have his first action there in a few days after assuming the job of security chief. He even got to make out with the enemy at the end. And what did the Scarlet Witch have to sort out? I noticed this is a pretty thick comic book. Thirty-six pages cover to cover. But it read rather quickly. No wonder. There are seventeen pages of actual comic book story. Then there's the cover page, the Letters page, the Bullpen Bulletin with Stan's Soapbox page, and sixteen pages worth of ads. Yes, 17 pages of actual story is typical for the 70's, unfortunately. |
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