rossn
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Posts: 173
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Post by rossn on May 26, 2018 6:41:37 GMT -5
It's ended once already in Return of the Jedi. The end of the Dark Empire trilogy is another suitable ending (even though the EU was in full swing at that point). Disney's Episode IX will hopefully be another ending. Obviously Star Wars is a huge business and business demands endless product/content, but a story needs an ending. I always thought RoTJ was the start of the next chapter, even when I was a kid seeing it in the theatre. Yes, it's the end of Vader's story, but certainly not the end. Could everything been summed up with a happy ending 10 minute epilogue? Sure. But I'm glad we got the EU instead  Well said! There is a great moment at the beginning of the Thrawn Trilogy where Obi-Wan and Luke have their last conversation together (eerily mirroring that between Yoda and Luke in The Last Jedi): Luke: "Then I am alone. I am the last of the Jedi." Obi-Wan: "Not the last of the old Jedi, Luke. The first of the new." The Thrawn Trilogy is about discovery, about rebuilding what was lost while sometimes painfully letting go. Yes Thrawn is a wonderful, memorable villain but the actual main villain in the Thrawn books is Joruus C'aobth, the false mentor and the key point in the series is that Luke fails to redeem him despite his best efforts. Not because of any flaw in Luke but because Joruus has no interest or capacity for such redemption. Not everyone can be Anakin Skywalker, reborn in the Light. Instead Luke redeems Mara Jade, the assassin, a creature of the Emperor in ways even Vader was not. And he does it not by provoking an ache of sympathy but by inspiration, by being the Jedi. I think it is very important to the series that Mara doesn't turn good by falling in love with Luke (and I say this as someone who shipped them and still does). He wins her over because he makes her realise she could be better, should be better.
Anyway, I came to Dark Empire quite late because even though I was a huge fan of Star Wars in the 1990s it was mostly via the novels rather than the comics. Technically they are all set in the same continuity but with Dark Empire (and Dark Empire 2) wedged in between the Thrawn Trilogy and the Kevin J. Anderson books it was easy to lose place. I did also have a lot of books for the Star Wars D6 roleplaying game, which incidentally had a sourcebook for Dark Empire. When I finally got around to reading it I already knew 'what happened' since I had read Jedi Search (which chronologically took place the following year in-universe) but it was certainly interesting. The art design struck me as very unusual and it was a bit of a shock moving from Zahn's more small scale, humanised (with an alien leader) Empire on the ropes to the epic juggernaut of the comics but there definitely something to be said for the epic quality and scale of the story. I'm looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts! |
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Post by aquagoat on May 26, 2018 7:08:28 GMT -5
It's ended once already in Return of the Jedi. The end of the Dark Empire trilogy is another suitable ending (even though the EU was in full swing at that point). Disney's Episode IX will hopefully be another ending. Obviously Star Wars is a huge business and business demands endless product/content, but a story needs an ending. I always thought RoTJ was the start of the next chapter, even when I was a kid seeing it in the theatre. Yes, it's the end of Vader's story, but certainly not the end. Do you mean 'not the end of Star Wars altogether'? Or 'not the end of the main Star Wars saga'? Because I agree with the former but disagree with the latter. In storytelling terms, RotJ is, literally, the end. It's the conclusion of the story, the resolution, all the story threads are tied up, Luke completes his hero's journey, the villains are defeated. Vader's story which began in Episode I is finished, and Lucas describes the six film saga as the Tragedy of Darth Vader. I mean, you could say any ending to anything is the start of a new chapter. You could try to extend any story indefinitely. You could say Red Riding Hood met another wolf, and then a bear, and so on endlessly. But what you're doing is creating more stories, not continuing the same one. That's why I think Dark Empire is the only continuation which really works organically, because it works as a larger climax to the saga, rather than starting a whole new one with the same characters, i.e. the Thrawn trilogy. Let me put it another way. Star Trek is a series of stories. Star Wars is one big story. But there is the Star Wars story, and the Star Wars universe. There are other stories set in the Star Wars universe, that act as background information for the main story - films like Rogue One, and the Clone Wars TV series, and so on. I'm not saying that stuff should ever end. But the main saga is a story that has been finished already in RotJ, Dark Empire provides another good ending, and hopefully Episode IX will come up with another one. A story needs an ending, and a modern myth - which is what Star Wars effectively has become - certainly needs one. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 26, 2018 14:58:19 GMT -5
I get what you're saying, but as a viewer, when I watch RotJ, I immediately thought 'what happens next?' While I agree it ends the story of Darth Vader, it doesn't end the Star Wars saga... Leia still has to try to rebuild the Republic. Luke has to decide to try to rebuild the Jedi or not. The Wookies are still slaves. There are lots of things out there, unless you picture that the entire Imperial Fleet was around Endor, which doesn't really make any sense. Granted that perhaps my view is skewed by todays modern sensibility where no story that can still sell ends, but that's WHY the Zahn books were so popular.. people wanted to know what happens next. I feel like when I read it at the time, I thought Dark Empire was along those same lines, which is not how you seem to see it, but it was a really long time ago. Once the library delivers for me, I'll re-read it and see what I think now |
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Post by aquagoat on May 26, 2018 17:48:50 GMT -5
I get what you're saying, but as a viewer, when I watch RotJ, I immediately thought 'what happens next?' While I agree it ends the story of Darth Vader, it doesn't end the Star Wars saga... Leia still has to try to rebuild the Republic. Luke has to decide to try to rebuild the Jedi or not. The Wookies are still slaves. There are lots of things out there, unless you picture that the entire Imperial Fleet was around Endor, which doesn't really make any sense. Granted that perhaps my view is skewed by todays modern sensibility where no story that can still sell ends, but that's WHY the Zahn books were so popular.. people wanted to know what happens next. I feel like when I read it at the time, I thought Dark Empire was along those same lines, which is not how you seem to see it, but it was a really long time ago. Once the library delivers for me, I'll re-read it and see what I think now That's cool, I mean this is just my take on how Star Wars fits together, I don't mean to say no-one should enjoy any of the other attempts to continue the saga, or look at Star Wars differently. For me, Dark Empire is unique and effective because it works as a climax to the existing saga at the time (that being the original trilogy). Sure, you want to know what happened to the Republic after RotJ, for instance...that's valid and interesting, I agree. But the actual story structure of Star Wars needs to escalate towards a conclusion - if you're saying RotJ isn't the ending - and that's got to be the huge final confrontation between good and evil. Rebuilding the republic is part of a happy ending that comes after that really. But again, that's just my take. |
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Post by aquagoat on May 26, 2018 18:12:28 GMT -5
Star Wars: Dark Empire # 2: 'Devastator of Worlds' Writer: Tom Veitch Art: Cam Kennedy Letters: Tom Klein Cover art: Dave Dorman Plot: The Rebels have learned that trouble is brewing in the very centre of the galaxy. Whilst the other Imperials have been fighting amongst themselves, a Great War Fleet has secretly been assembled in the centre of the galaxy. The Empire is also attacking Admiral Ackbar's home world of Calamari, and the Rebel alliance, led by Lando and Wedge Antilles, races to the rescue.Meanwhile, Leia is troubled - she regrets leaving Luke in the previous issue, and senses something terrible is happening to him...and it is, as he's being taken to a very dark place, literally, metaphorically, and grammatically...
Some wonderful new ideas are introduced to the Star Wars universe here. We are treated to a glimpse of of the Galactic Core worlds, and the planet Byss where the Emperor himself resides, which writer Tom Veitch describes as 'entirely enveloped in the power of the Dark Side'. Veitch's concept of the Force, with the enormous Force storm of the previous issue and a Dark Side-heavy planet in this one, seems more physical and tangible than that in the movies. Luke finds himself on Byss, which is pleasingly bizarre and creepy, with it's sea-green nouveau architecture; and the look of it's inhabitants perfectly builds on the sinister weirdos we saw in the Emperor's throne room in Return of the Jedi. This is one of the highlights of the series, and one of Dark Empire's great contributions to the Star Wars mythos; the Emperor isn't just a lone witch-type figure, he comes from an entire Dark Side society, and the tantalising panels we get of it here not only expand the scope of the saga, but leave the reader eager to learn more. Cam Kennedy's art is absolutely crammed with intriguing details of this mysterious world - to pick out one highlight, the Emperor's citadel is guarded by 12-foot tall robed warriors with tiny red eyes and pike staffs, who look intimidating yet somehow child-like.  The images of Luke striding through the crowds of the Emperor's lackeys on the planet as they laugh at him - but still move aside to let him through - remind the reader of Aslan, walking through the hordes of evil animals to get to the White Witch in Narnia. The difference here is that Luke doesn't stand out as an untainted messianic hero like Aslan did - looking like the powerful wizard he now is, Luke looks completely at home on Byss. You wouldn't be blamed for having a bad feeling about this... Luke is shocked to find the Emperor alive, but somehow he knew it was the case. The Emperor describes how the events of Return of the Jedi were just one of many times he has died; his Dark Side powers cause his body to decay, and so he uses cloning technology to become immortal. Many reviewers have complained that the Emperor resurrecting himself is a bad idea, but it makes perfect sense that he would do so, if he had the technology - and what did happen to it after the Clone Wars anyway? You can easy envisage Emperor Palpatine commandeering the cloning world of Kamino and using it for his own sinister purposes. This is a wonderful use of existing lore from the films - not just cloning, but the Emperor's decaying appearance in RotJ which always seemed to suggest he was so morally corrupt that his face was warped. Here he even mentions that he exists primarily as formless energy - so the Emperor is literally pure evil, in human form. So we now see Luke, not as a rookie Jedi, but at his most powerful, fighting not his father, but the real villain of the saga. We learn both Luke and the Emperor have grown very strong in the Force since they last met (Luke can trash an AT-AT Walker single-handedly now, don't forget), which positions them as beyond anything we'd seen so far in terms of Force users. This sets up the ultimate climactic battle... But instead of drawing his lightsaber and fighting him, Luke submits himself before the Emperor-! He bows! This is, of course, a pivotal moment to the story, but it's surprisingly ambiguous - despite Veitch describing the moment in detail. Luke decides the only way to defeat the Emperor is by learning the secrets of the Dark Side, and using them against him. However, as evidenced by Luke's dark garb and brooding demeanour since issue #1, Luke was heading towards the Dark Side anyway...  Luke turns to the Dark Side in Dark Empire: Anakin turns to the Dark Side in Revenge of the Sith. Deliberate or not, the scenes perfectly mirror each other.Characterisation is interesting here - the Emperor's evil seems to pervade the story and effect everybody. Han and Leia are subdued and sombre - Leia isolates herself from the others. She's concerned about Luke, and foresees terrible events about to take place. As with Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens, Leia's main use of the Force is not for combat but for sensing other people across the galaxy. Han is not quite out-of-character, but unusually downbeat: 'This endless war...it seems like we've only been alone for five minutes since Mon Mothma married us...'. He decides not to aid the Calamari rescue mission in order to spend time with Leia (dubious as many lives are at stake), and argues with her about going to help Luke. 'I'm not about to challenge the judgement of a Jedi!' he tells Leia - hard to imagine him ever saying that in the movies. Eventually of course, he changes his mind. We also learn some cool backstory to Admiral Ackbar his home world of Calamari, which the Empire tried to turn into a slave camp many years ago. The Mon Calamari people resisted, and although the Empire destroyed their cities as a result - and had the planet top of the list as a Death Star target - it only hardened the Mon Calamari against them, and Ackbar and co became a valuable part of the Rebel Alliance. They may learn to regret this however, as the ominous World Devastators (more on those shortly) arrive on Calamari...the Emperor clearly hates crustaceans. The visuals are just as evocative and memorable as the first issue. This one opens with the trademark Dark Empire image - huge ships against a moody watercolour background. It's at once perfectly keeping with the style of the movies, and unique to the artist Cam Kennedy. The Rebel's new stronghold/hideout is Pinnacle Base - a beautifully eerie and elegant world of enormous, disc-topped stalagmite-type structures, which our heroes carve into to set up their new home. Ships are guided around by Ixlls, which are strange bat-bird creatures. It's the kind of imaginative and otherworldly visual that, like Byss, the new Disney movies are desperately in need of. We already saw in the first issue that artist Cam Kennedy is ideal for depicting the Empire's hordes of ships and vehicles. This second instalment goes further and introduces some brand new ones - wonderfully described by Mon Mothma as 'diabolical machines'. Witness the World Devastators; vast and terrifying ships which consume everything they come across, turn them into Imperial weapons, and regurgitate them back into the battle! Ackbar himself inexplicably describes the World Devastators as 'far more lethal than the Death Star' - I'm not sure the inhabitants of Alderaan would agree. Nonetheless, it's easy to imagine how terrifying it would be in battle to see your own vehicles being sucked up and re-purposed against you. It's a great concept. We also see Imperial Dungeon Ships, and a spherical energised cage which is used to deliver Luke to the Emperor. To sum up, another great issue. In contrast with the first, this is more plot and character building that action, with some exquisite and tantalising world building as well. The development of the Emperor, his history of cloning and his culture is intriguing, and cliffhangers don't get much bigger than Luke Skywalker turning to the Dark Side. Notable dialogue: 'If there's a dark centre of the universe, this is it, Artoo....' - Luke describes the planet Byss, and also mirrors his comment from A New Hope about Tatooine: '"If there's a bright centre to the universe, you're on the planet that it's farthest from." Continuity issues: The Imperial Dungeon ships - with Mandalorian walls no less - which Luke describes as 'hyperspace vehicles', were 'used to transport Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars'. When Lucas himself got round to the Clone Wars, the Jedi were just slaughtered outright rather than imprisoned. What exactly would they be imprisoned for, one wonders? It's an intriguing idea - perhaps Veitch envisions the Jedi's downfall as similar to the fate of the Templar Knights, who were outlawed, given show trials, and then executed.  Favourite panel: Again, too many to chose from, but this hugely ominous image of an almost gothic-looking World Devastator bearing down on Calamari... Rating: 4/5
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Post by thwhtguardian on May 26, 2018 21:22:26 GMT -5
Well, I'm in for the reread too! Just finished the first two and I'll echo what others have said on the art but with one caveat; while I also dislike muted,limited color pallet I love the over all technique. There's just something absolutely stunning about the use of water colors coupled with the galaxy far, far away; it gives it a very picturesque, high fantasy feel that is a perfect fit.
On the plot I'll again echo what some have said in that I never felt that Return of the Jedi as the end of Star Wars, any more than A New Hope felt like the beginning to me. As such I was never bothered by the fact that the Empire remained strong after the Emperor's death, it was a vast and powerful military organization that didn't seem likely to just roll over once its leader was no more so battling them here poses no conundrum for me. That said, with the larger time jump present in the current films I don't feel the same way about the first order; at that point in time I really felt like good should have prevailed and that it didn't is one of the reasons the sequels feel off to me. That isn't to say I'm a 100% behind the use of the Empire here, though I think it's logical that they are still a threat I really hate that there's yet another super weapon at large in the Galaxy that must be stopped at all costs. It just feels repetitive to me, which again is a fault I find in the sequel trilogy as well with its Star Killer base. If one Death Star could be beat by a small, but determined group of Rebels in snub fighter than why would a bigger version, or even multiple weapons like the World Devastators pose a bigger threat?
Still, warts and all it's a great book, and even though labeled "Legends" I still think of it as the legitimate sequel to the original trilogy, and because of the large time jump there's nothing to say a similar series of events couldn't have occurred before the Force Awakens so I'll still take it as "real"
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Post by aquagoat on May 27, 2018 5:14:06 GMT -5
I really hate that there's yet another super weapon at large in the Galaxy that must be stopped at all costs. It just feels repetitive to me, which again is a fault I find in the sequel trilogy as well with its Star Killer base. If one Death Star could be beat by a small, but determined group of Rebels in snub fighter than why would a bigger version, or even multiple weapons like the World Devastators pose a bigger threat? Still, warts and all it's a great book, and even though labeled "Legends" I still think of it as the legitimate sequel to the original trilogy, and because of the large time jump there's nothing to say a similar series of events couldn't have occurred before the Force Awakens so I'll still take it as "real" I'm really intrigued by the concept of canon, and how Star Wars fans reacted to the new Disney canon replacing the old one (EU). It's kind of fascinating. Although Disney have labelled the old stuff 'Legends' (i.e. 'not true'), one doesn't invalidate the other - it's all fiction at the end of the day. The EU says Luke married Mara Jade. Disney says that's a 'Legend' (but are still happy to print books with it in). On the other hand, you don't have to accept Disney's version - Mark Hamill himself is adamant that The Last Jedi's Luke is out of character, and not George Lucas' version, and a lot of fans agree. Personally, I like having different versions. I find the World Devastators are sufficiently different and imaginative enough to be a cool new threat, though I don't think they should have been played up as 'worse than the Death Star'. The 'another super-weapon' thing is repetitive as you say, but I think it's inspired, as a lot of Empire stuff is, by the Nazis in World War II. Hitler was obsessed with finding an ultimate weapon which would change the course of the entire war, and they came up with loads of crazy stuff. Unfortunately Dark Empire II introduces a quite generic Death Star substitute, but we'll get to that later on. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on May 27, 2018 6:25:43 GMT -5
I really hate that there's yet another super weapon at large in the Galaxy that must be stopped at all costs. It just feels repetitive to me, which again is a fault I find in the sequel trilogy as well with its Star Killer base. If one Death Star could be beat by a small, but determined group of Rebels in snub fighter than why would a bigger version, or even multiple weapons like the World Devastators pose a bigger threat? Still, warts and all it's a great book, and even though labeled "Legends" I still think of it as the legitimate sequel to the original trilogy, and because of the large time jump there's nothing to say a similar series of events couldn't have occurred before the Force Awakens so I'll still take it as "real" I'm really intrigued by the concept of canon, and how Star Wars fans reacted to the new Disney canon replacing the old one (EU). It's kind of fascinating. Although Disney have labelled the old stuff 'Legends' (i.e. 'not true'), one doesn't invalidate the other - it's all fiction at the end of the day. The EU says Luke married Mara Jade. Disney says that's a 'Legend' (but are still happy to print books with it in). On the other hand, you don't have to accept Disney's version - Mark Hamill himself is adamant that The Last Jedi's Luke is out of character, and not George Lucas' version, and a lot of fans agree. Personally, I like having different versions. I find the World Devastators are sufficiently different and imaginative enough to be a cool new threat, though I don't think they should have been played up as 'worse than the Death Star'. The 'another super-weapon' thing is repetitive as you say, but I think it's inspired, as a lot of Empire stuff is, by the Nazis in World War II. Hitler was obsessed with finding an ultimate weapon which would change the course of the entire war, and they came up with loads of crazy stuff. Unfortunately Dark Empire II introduces a quite generic Death Star substitute, but we'll get to that later on. To me, I'm not even sure that The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi are canon! I tend to think that if a SW film doesn't have George Lucas signing off on it, then it's the same as the non-Arthur Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes stories: they might be good, but they ain't canon. Regarding EU stuff, I'm old enough and have been a fan of SW long enough that I take any "official" decision about which EU stuff is real and which is Legends or whatever with a pinch of salt. The current Disney canon is the third lot of EU material I've known. I've seen the Marvel comics stuff thrown out of the window when Dark Horse took over, and then saw the DH stuff, along with things like the Han Solo trilogy novels and Splinter of the Mind's Eye, get thrown away when Disney took over (that's without mentioning George Lucas's disregard for and violation of then-curremt EU canon when making the prequels). So, when Disney market new books and stuff by advertising it as "canon", I just role my eyes. And lest we forget that Disney couldn't even keep track of continuity enough to know when Poe Dameron first met Rey (someone forget that they'd already met in TFA and had them get introduced again in The Last Jedi). So yeah...I think the idea of "head canon" is the best way to go with SW. Just pick and choose whatever you like. Because make no mistake, sooner or later, the current version of SW canon will be rendered obsolete. |
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Post by aquagoat on May 27, 2018 16:07:14 GMT -5
I'm really intrigued by the concept of canon, and how Star Wars fans reacted to the new Disney canon replacing the old one (EU). It's kind of fascinating. Although Disney have labelled the old stuff 'Legends' (i.e. 'not true'), one doesn't invalidate the other - it's all fiction at the end of the day. The EU says Luke married Mara Jade. Disney says that's a 'Legend' (but are still happy to print books with it in). On the other hand, you don't have to accept Disney's version - Mark Hamill himself is adamant that The Last Jedi's Luke is out of character, and not George Lucas' version, and a lot of fans agree. Personally, I like having different versions. I find the World Devastators are sufficiently different and imaginative enough to be a cool new threat, though I don't think they should have been played up as 'worse than the Death Star'. The 'another super-weapon' thing is repetitive as you say, but I think it's inspired, as a lot of Empire stuff is, by the Nazis in World War II. Hitler was obsessed with finding an ultimate weapon which would change the course of the entire war, and they came up with loads of crazy stuff. Unfortunately Dark Empire II introduces a quite generic Death Star substitute, but we'll get to that later on. To me, I'm not even sure that The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi are canon! I tend to think that if a SW film doesn't have George Lucas signing off on it, then it's the same as the non-Arthur Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes stories: they might be good, but they ain't canon. Regarding EU stuff, I'm old enough and have been a fan of SW long enough that I take any "official" decision about which EU stuff is real and which is Legends or whatever with a pinch of salt. The current Disney canon is the third lot of EU material I've known. I've seen the Marvel comics stuff thrown out of the window when Dark Horse took over, and then saw the DH stuff, along with things like the Han Solo trilogy novels and Splinter of the Mind's Eye, get thrown away when Disney took over (that's without mentioning George Lucas's disregard for and violation of then-curremt EU canon when making the prequels). So, when Disney market new books and stuff by advertising it as "canon", I just role my eyes. And lest we forget that Disney couldn't even keep track of continuity enough to know when Poe Dameron first met Rey (someone forget that they'd already met in TFA and had them get introduced again in The Last Jedi). So yeah...I think the idea of "head canon" is the best way to go with SW. Just pick and choose whatever you like. Because make no mistake, sooner or later, the current version of SW canon will be rendered obsolete. Exactly. Eventually Disney viewers will get sick of Disney milking Star Wars to death (and it's already happening, Solo isn't doing well as the box office), the films will stop....and then ten years later they'll try to reboot Star Wars: 'Here's the new Episode I you always wanted!' = $$$$$. I sort of agree with you that the only 'proper' Star Wars is George Lucas Star Wars - but The Empire Strikes Back is as much Lawrence Kasdan and Irvin Kershner as Lucas, and that's the best one. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on May 27, 2018 16:39:56 GMT -5
I sort of agree with you that the only 'proper' Star Wars is George Lucas Star Wars - but The Empire Strikes Back is as much Lawrence Kasdan and Irvin Kershner as Lucas, and that's the best one. Oh yeah, but the difference between that and, say, The Last Jedi, is that Lucas himself ultimately signed off on ESB. It was his original storyline that Kasdan adapted into a full script. And, yes, Irvin Kershner might've directed it, but he was still following the Lucas approved shooting script and George was on set and location for a lot of that movie, watching over Kershner's shoulder, approving creature designs etc. For me, even the Star Wars Holiday Special is more canon than the sequel trilogy, because, while he may disown it nowadays, Lucas was at the helm for that atrocity. That's not to say that the modern, "non-canon" stuff (and it's only my definition of non-canon, mind) is necessarily bad. I loved Rogue One and happen to think that it's the best SW film since the original trilogy and far, far superior to TFA and TLJ. So you have to take these post-Lucas SW films on their own merits. |
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Post by Duragizer on May 27, 2018 23:46:50 GMT -5
I'm an unabashed fan of the original Dark Empire. It's not a perfect story — Veitch's dialogue isn't too hot, and he devotes too little attention to Luke's exploration of the dark side — but the art and atmosphere help balance the weaknesses. And it does a better job making Palpatine a strong villain than ROTJ ever did.
But as for Dark Empire II and Empire's End, I don't like them much at all. I won't bring up my grievances with them yet, 'cause spoilers.
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Post by aquagoat on May 28, 2018 17:05:53 GMT -5
I'm an unabashed fan of the original Dark Empire. It's not a perfect story — Veitch's dialogue isn't too hot, and he devotes too little attention to Luke's exploration of the dark side — but the art and atmosphere help balance the weaknesses. And it does a better job making Palpatine a strong villain than ROTJ ever did. But as for Dark Empire II and Empire's End, I don't like them much at all. I won't bring up my grievances with them yet, 'cause spoilers. It's fascinating to learn more about Palpatine, one of the best things about Dark Empire. What we saw in RotJ was just the tip of the iceberg. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on May 31, 2018 7:44:17 GMT -5
I'm really intrigued by the concept of canon, and how Star Wars fans reacted to the new Disney canon replacing the old one (EU). It's kind of fascinating. Although Disney have labelled the old stuff 'Legends' (i.e. 'not true'), one doesn't invalidate the other - it's all fiction at the end of the day. The EU says Luke married Mara Jade. Disney says that's a 'Legend' (but are still happy to print books with it in). On the other hand, you don't have to accept Disney's version - Mark Hamill himself is adamant that The Last Jedi's Luke is out of character, and not George Lucas' version, and a lot of fans agree. Personally, I like having different versions. I find the World Devastators are sufficiently different and imaginative enough to be a cool new threat, though I don't think they should have been played up as 'worse than the Death Star'. The 'another super-weapon' thing is repetitive as you say, but I think it's inspired, as a lot of Empire stuff is, by the Nazis in World War II. Hitler was obsessed with finding an ultimate weapon which would change the course of the entire war, and they came up with loads of crazy stuff. Unfortunately Dark Empire II introduces a quite generic Death Star substitute, but we'll get to that later on. To me, I'm not even sure that The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi are canon! I tend to think that if a SW film doesn't have George Lucas signing off on it, then it's the same as the non-Arthur Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes stories: they might be good, but they ain't canon. Regarding EU stuff, I'm old enough and have been a fan of SW long enough that I take any "official" decision about which EU stuff is real and which is Legends or whatever with a pinch of salt. The current Disney canon is the third lot of EU material I've known. I've seen the Marvel comics stuff thrown out of the window when Dark Horse took over, and then saw the DH stuff, along with things like the Han Solo trilogy novels and Splinter of the Mind's Eye, get thrown away when Disney took over (that's without mentioning George Lucas's disregard for and violation of then-curremt EU canon when making the prequels). So, when Disney market new books and stuff by advertising it as "canon", I just role my eyes. And lest we forget that Disney couldn't even keep track of continuity enough to know when Poe Dameron first met Rey (someone forget that they'd already met in TFA and had them get introduced again in The Last Jedi). So yeah...I think the idea of "head canon" is the best way to go with SW. Just pick and choose whatever you like. Because make no mistake, sooner or later, the current version of SW canon will be rendered obsolete. Eh, I think there's a big difference between people writing Tarzan, Conan and Holmes stories after the author's deaths and George Lucas selling his Universe lock stock and barrel to another company. Doyle and Burroughs didn't personally approve of further adventures of their characters so it's easy to view them as illegitimate but Lucas knowingly sold it knowing full well that other movies would be made so it's much more of an official passing of the torch; besides it's not as if Lucas didn't let others play with his world before so in that respect as well there's nothing unofficial about the new films, comics and novels. Now, that isn't to say one has to like them, or even take them as "real" in their own minds, only rather that they can't just be dismissed out of hand. |
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Post by aquagoat on May 31, 2018 16:15:20 GMT -5
To me, I'm not even sure that The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi are canon! I tend to think that if a SW film doesn't have George Lucas signing off on it, then it's the same as the non-Arthur Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes stories: they might be good, but they ain't canon. Regarding EU stuff, I'm old enough and have been a fan of SW long enough that I take any "official" decision about which EU stuff is real and which is Legends or whatever with a pinch of salt. The current Disney canon is the third lot of EU material I've known. I've seen the Marvel comics stuff thrown out of the window when Dark Horse took over, and then saw the DH stuff, along with things like the Han Solo trilogy novels and Splinter of the Mind's Eye, get thrown away when Disney took over (that's without mentioning George Lucas's disregard for and violation of then-curremt EU canon when making the prequels). So, when Disney market new books and stuff by advertising it as "canon", I just role my eyes. And lest we forget that Disney couldn't even keep track of continuity enough to know when Poe Dameron first met Rey (someone forget that they'd already met in TFA and had them get introduced again in The Last Jedi). So yeah...I think the idea of "head canon" is the best way to go with SW. Just pick and choose whatever you like. Because make no mistake, sooner or later, the current version of SW canon will be rendered obsolete. Eh, I think there's a big difference between people writing Tarzan, Conan and Holmes stories after the author's deaths and George Lucas selling his Universe lock stock and barrel to another company. But that's essentially saying that continuation of a story is down to which business owns the rights to it. It's saying Disney own the Star Wars brand now, so anything they slap a Star Wars logo on is 'proper Star Wars'. I don't think it's as simple as that. For instance, say someone brought the Mona Lisa, and they decided to expand the canvas, and paint a sister - Mona Sarah - next to her. This person officially owns the painting, so they can do what they like with it. But it's not Da Vinci's painting anymore. It's 50% Da Vinci, and 50% someone trying to imitate him to create more product. And let's not forget one important fact: Lucas did hand over Star Wars to Disney - but he gave them story outlines for the sequel trilogy. And Disney didn't use them. Disney didn't continue Star Wars the way Lucas wanted them to. In my opinion, the Star Wars trilogy is the best Star Wars. The prequels are poor real Star Wars. The sequels (and Rogue One and Han Solo) are pretty good imitation Star Wars. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on May 31, 2018 17:03:47 GMT -5
Eh, I think there's a big difference between people writing Tarzan, Conan and Holmes stories after the author's deaths and George Lucas selling his Universe lock stock and barrel to another company. But that's essentially saying that continuation of a story is down to which business owns the rights to it. It's saying Disney own the Star Wars brand now, so anything they slap a Star Wars logo on is 'proper Star Wars'. I don't think it's as simple as that. For instance, say someone brought the Mona Lisa, and they decided to expand the canvas, and paint a sister - Mona Sarah - next to her. This person officially owns the painting, so they can do what they like with it. But it's not Da Vinci's painting anymore. It's 50% Da Vinci, and 50% someone trying to imitate him to create more product. And let's not forget one important fact: Lucas did hand over Star Wars to Disney - but he gave them story outlines for the sequel trilogy. And Disney didn't use them. Disney didn't continue Star Wars the way Lucas wanted them to. In my opinion, the Star Wars trilogy is the best Star Wars. The prequels are poor real Star Wars. The sequels (and Rogue One and Han Solo) are pretty good imitation Star Wars. Again though, that's different as it's a finished art piece several hundred years separated from the death of it's original artist not something knowingly passed on as is the case of Star Wars. |
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