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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 29, 2023 7:51:10 GMT -5
I agree with this guy (and I also miss thought bubbles): They should use all of them as needed. I miss the footnotes that refer you to pass issue #'s .
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 29, 2023 7:58:31 GMT -5
Agree with both. There were also some stories done in second person there were very effective. Some EC books come to mind. Who and why was it decided that comics can only be panels with dialog?
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 29, 2023 8:07:42 GMT -5
Agree with both. There were also some stories done in second person there were very effective. Some EC books come to mind. Who and why was it decided that comics can only be panels with dialog? For me, it also makes some comics expensive. One UK comic may be £4. I can read it in minutes. And I don’t even get something akin to Stan’s Soapbox or a letters page. I read an early issue of The Amazing Spider-Man recently. Must have taken at least 20 minutes, with all the speech and thought bubbles, captions, plus 2 pages of letters. It’s not just about the money, though. The caption from that Dracula story is profound. And thought bubbles can be fun, something such as Jameson thinking, ‘I’ll pay Parker half the value of what these photos should cost.’ We’re not getting any insight into a character’s mindset.
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Post by MWGallaher on Oct 29, 2023 8:31:06 GMT -5
Agree with both. There were also some stories done in second person there were very effective. Some EC books come to mind. Who and why was it decided that comics can only be panels with dialog? Dialog and first person narration. First person narration is, to me, an even less authentic storytelling construct than the thought balloon, especially in, say, a JLA story where different sections are narrated by different JLAers: 3 pages of Batman narrating, then 2 pages of Green Arrow, then a few Zatanna pages... It implies that sometime after the events of the story, each member sat down and recorded or related recreations of their remembered thoughts in those moments. In a novel, we can assume that the narrator is, well, writing out their memoirs or something, but it's not so easy to dream up a scenario where each participant is sharing detailed reconstructions that often include closely held secrets and private opinions. And of course, occasionally the narrator of a section will actually die, so how did this information ever get recorded? I suppose the narrative technique allows writers to be more expressive, using more engaging language that would be inauthentic when rendered as the more immediate thought balloons. We've all seen absurdly expository use of thought balloons in older comics: "If only I had my Miraclo tablets! But they were proving dangerously addictive, so I had to invent the Miraclo ray instead, which allows me to gain superpowers for one hour, but only if I expose myself to them using the machine in my lab. Unfortunately, the lab is on the other side of town, and Dr. Glisten has locked me in this meat packing plant, where I will die from exposure to the cold before I can escape!" I can see how that same information could be better conveyed as a narrative contemplation of the situation after the fact. I do wonder why writers would deprive themselves of the kind of scene-setting, art-augmenting text the likes of which enriched books like TOMB OF DRACULA, but maybe the editors just grew to impose new conventions as they went along with the trends. Arguably, the art should do the heavy lifting on establishing atmosphere, and the kind of stuff Wolfman did in TOD was sometimes--perhaps usually--superfluous over the likes of Gene Colan panels. But not every artist is a Gene Colan, right?
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 29, 2023 8:35:09 GMT -5
And there was just more story. Those early Spider-man stories were mostly one and done. Today they would be at least four issues. I can think of so many classic stories that were one, two or at most three issues. Today everything is so decompressed. A whole page to do what they used to do in one panel.
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 29, 2023 9:04:23 GMT -5
And there was just more story. Those early Spider-man stories were mostly one and done. Today they would be at least four issues. I can think of so many classic stories that were one, two or at most three issues. Today everything is so decompressed. A whole page to do what they used to do in one panel. Today everything is so decompressed bloated. You're too nice.
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 29, 2023 9:54:39 GMT -5
Agree with both. There were also some stories done in second person there were very effective. Some EC books come to mind. Who and why was it decided that comics can only be panels with dialog? Dialog and first person narration. First person narration is, to me, an even less authentic storytelling construct than the thought balloon, especially in, say, a JLA story where different sections are narrated by different JLAers: 3 pages of Batman narrating, then 2 pages of Green Arrow, then a few Zatanna pages... It implies that sometime after the events of the story, each member sat down and recorded or related recreations of their remembered thoughts in those moments. In a novel, we can assume that the narrator is, well, writing out their memoirs or something, but it's not so easy to dream up a scenario where each participant is sharing detailed reconstructions that often include closely held secrets and private opinions. And of course, occasionally the narrator of a section will actually die, so how did this information ever get recorded? I suppose the narrative technique allows writers to be more expressive, using more engaging language that would be inauthentic when rendered as the more immediate thought balloons. We've all seen absurdly expository use of thought balloons in older comics: "If only I had my Miraclo tablets! But they were proving dangerously addictive, so I had to invent the Miraclo ray instead, which allows me to gain superpowers for one hour, but only if I expose myself to them using the machine in my lab. Unfortunately, the lab is on the other side of town, and Dr. Glisten has locked me in this meat packing plant, where I will die from exposure to the cold before I can escape!" I can see how that same information could be better conveyed as a narrative contemplation of the situation after the fact. I do wonder why writers would deprive themselves of the kind of scene-setting, art-augmenting text the likes of which enriched books like TOMB OF DRACULA, but maybe the editors just grew to impose new conventions as they went along with the trends. Arguably, the art should do the heavy lifting on establishing atmosphere, and the kind of stuff Wolfman did in TOD was sometimes--perhaps usually--superfluous over the likes of Gene Colan panels. But not every artist is a Gene Colan, right? I agree that exposition dialog like that is awkward, but it served to give new readers the information about the characters. Something not done and probably not needed today.
What also bothered me was when a writer has the characters describe the action that is obviously happening. Especially when the artist made it clear. I found Stan often did this as I was re-reading the early Spider-Man issues. Spider-Man "I will swing out the window and surprise the criminal by coming back through another window!" Yeah Stan, Steve made that clear what was going on. Though this same thing worked in Dr Strange because all the action was magical rays and sparkles, so having Strange describe what he was doing and what incantations he used worked.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2023 10:03:03 GMT -5
And there was just more story. Those early Spider-man stories were mostly one and done. Today they would be at least four issues. I can think of so many classic stories that were one, two or at most three issues. Today everything is so decompressed. A whole page to do what they used to do in one panel. It's interesting to me because when I talk to some of my much younger friends about comic books today, they sometimes ask for recommendations to go back and read this era, or have just discovered some of it on their own. And many times they say to me "it's so slow to read!", as in so much exposition and talking overall. I'm probably somewhere in between myself. Just sheer "quality-wise", stuff like those early Spider-Man stories just seem on a whole other level to me. In terms of actual reading, I find I have to be in a little bit more of a mood to sit down and actively "read" all that. Hard for me to get through more than an issue or two at a time. Whereas I can take some later stuff and sometimes read a year's worth of content in one go. I don't view either approach as truly "better" since I like aspects of both, though I do lean a bit towards some of that "decompression" has gotten out of hand in more recent years (like TOO little happens overall).
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 29, 2023 12:10:00 GMT -5
And there was just more story. Those early Spider-man stories were mostly one and done. Today they would be at least four issues. I can think of so many classic stories that were one, two or at most three issues. Today everything is so decompressed. A whole page to do what they used to do in one panel. It's interesting to me because when I talk to some of my much younger friends about comic books today, they sometimes ask for recommendations to go back and read this era, or have just discovered some of it on their own. And many times they say to me "it's so slow to read!", as in so much exposition and talking overall.I'm an old fart but I agree. Those early Ditko Spider-mans take 30 minutes to finish.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,202
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Post by Confessor on Oct 29, 2023 15:47:16 GMT -5
I'm an old fart but I agree. Those early Ditko Spider-mans take 30 minutes to finish. Me too. You can really get stuck into them and feel as if you've read a decent comics-worth of story at the end.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Oct 29, 2023 15:50:26 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with skimming the dialogue and captions in those more wordy older comics IMO. I've been going through a lot of Silver and Bronze Age stuff in the last few years and so much of the text is superfluous and repetitive, especially during a binge read
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 29, 2023 15:52:58 GMT -5
I'm an old fart but I agree. Those early Ditko Spider-mans take 30 minutes to finish. Me too. You can really get stuck into them and feel as if you've read a decent comics-worth of story at the end. Love ya both. Drinks are on me.
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Post by commond on Oct 29, 2023 16:35:15 GMT -5
Storytelling in comics today is very cinematic. Storytelling in older comics is more literary. They are different reading experiences. Reading a modern comic today is like watching an episode of prestige TV. They're built to a cliffhanger that makes you want to read the next issue, the same way way prestige TV makes you want to binge watch the entire season in one sitting. It took some getting used to at first, as you'd see a lot of wide screen panels with very little dialogue. However, when it's done well it's every bit as valid as the older storytelling methods. You don't see other mediums standing still and comics is the same.
On the subject of single issue stories, I think it was clear even back in the Bronze Age that readers preferred multi-part stories hence Marvel's failed experiment with returning to single issue stories circa 1970.
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 29, 2023 16:42:58 GMT -5
It's interesting to me because when I talk to some of my much younger friends about comic books today, they sometimes ask for recommendations to go back and read this era, or have just discovered some of it on their own. And many times they say to me "it's so slow to read!", as in so much exposition and talking overall.I'm an old fart but I agree. Those early Ditko Spider-mans take 30 minutes to finish. Hey! You got your twelve cents' worth, didn't ya!?
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 29, 2023 16:43:45 GMT -5
Storytelling in comics today is very cinematic. If you like a steady diet of silent movies.
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