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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2024 17:43:56 GMT -5
You can emote even without seeing someone's face. For instance music during scenes can be a powerful agent in that, think Vader debating what to do with the Emperor frying Luke in Jedi. Full helmet looking back and forth, but John Williams is the one really amping up the mood and you feel Vader's conflict. Or another non-verbal cue like when he would raise that "choke" hand of his, such a simple gesture but the association of what that means conveys his mood pretty clearly.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Apr 16, 2024 17:49:44 GMT -5
Have you looked at the world we live in? That's a big ask! It's the same reason Chris Evans runs around without a Cap mask in most of the movies and they developed the the inside the helmet look for Robert Downey Jr as Iron Man and why every Spidey has unmasked for significant portions of the movie. On a more practical creative side, it is very difficult for characters in helmets and masks to emote and connect to audiences as well, so removing the mask/helmet creates not just audience recognition but audience connections and ability to identify emotional aspects of scenes through facial expressions. Real world Spider-mask eyes don't go wide or narrow when Spidey needs to emote for the audience the way they can in comics. -M It feels like a big ask when I think of some of the silliness I see in politics or the media (which is why I ration my consumption of news). Or even something simple, such as the time I saw a person reading a book while at the wheel of a moving car - on a motorway! I could even mention a colleague from my clerical career days who thought he needed to cook a jacket potato in a microwave - for ninety minutes. Not sure where he got that timing from. I appreciate what you posted about emotional aspects and facial expressions. I guess my mindset is based on what I experience here, at comic cons, if chatting with friends about movies. Everyone here seems to be a discerning and intelligent person (I’m not saying that about me!), and I’ve had some really stimulating chats at comic cons, or with a friend who loves movies. I might have hoped Hollywood would try and appeal to the intellectual elements of society, but maybe that’s a pipe dream, eh? It's not about politics (or I didn't intend it to be)-We as a society need McDonald's to label coffee as hot to warn us because a large portion of the population cannot figure that out on their own. There's a trend that wants to try to identify writing generated by AI because of the words it uses like deluge because "normal people don't use bug words like that" and who argue creating AI art takes more creativity and talent than traditionally produced art. People as a whole should not be credited with intelligence. There are certainly individuals who are, but people as a whole, not so much. (dripping sarcasm here=) As for comic fans, they seem to have trouble figuring out volumes and issue numbers if there is more than one volume or more than one #1 based on the complaints here, so no I don't think comic or genre fans score any better than the mass audience on this matter. -M |
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Apr 16, 2024 17:52:34 GMT -5
You can emote even without seeing someone's face. For instance music during scenes can be a powerful agent in that, think Vader debating what to do with the Emperor frying Luke in Jedi. Full helmet looking back and forth, but John Williams is the one really amping up the mood and you feel Vader's conflict. Or another non-verbal cue like when he would raise that "choke" hand of his, such a simple gesture but the association of what that means conveys his mood pretty clearly. Sure you can, but doing it successfully is the exception not the rule. And movies are big money investments and will do whatever they think will result in the best box office results. Hollywood as a whole appeals to the lowest common denominator and make decisions with that audience in mind, and has always done so. What that surprises people baffles me. But again, if people as a whole acknowledged the obvious more often, I might not feel as strongly about not crediting people with intelligence. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2024 17:59:07 GMT -5
You can emote even without seeing someone's face. For instance music during scenes can be a powerful agent in that, think Vader debating what to do with the Emperor frying Luke in Jedi. Full helmet looking back and forth, but John Williams is the one really amping up the mood and you feel Vader's conflict. Or another non-verbal cue like when he would raise that "choke" hand of his, such a simple gesture but the association of what that means conveys his mood pretty clearly. Sure you can, but doing it successfully is the exception not the rule. And movies are big money investments and will do whatever they think will result in the best box office results. Hollywood as a whole appeals to the lowest common denominator and make decisions with that audience in mind, and has always done so. What that surprises people baffles me. But again, if people as a whole acknowledged the obvious more often, I might not feel as strongly about not crediting people with intelligence. -M Maybe they should have made an exception with Dredd because it both a) did not make a lot of money and b) it sucked. |
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Post by rberman on Apr 16, 2024 18:00:50 GMT -5
As an American who went to see that Dredd movie when it came out, it was a huge disappointment when Stallone was stripped of the Dredd look so early in the movie. I was only a very casual Dredd fan and I liked plenty of prior Stallone movies, but I certainly did not go to that movie to "see his face". The fact that it particularly bombed in North America I think indicates I was not alone. Don't make a Dredd movie if you don't think Dredd himself is viable as a character. The goal should have been the audience saying "Stallone did great as Dredd" not "Dredd did great as Stallone". That makes perfect sense for someone who heard of “Judge Dredd” prior to the film. But that’s a small minority of Americans who saw the film. |
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Post by driver1980 on Apr 16, 2024 18:09:52 GMT -5
It feels like a big ask when I think of some of the silliness I see in politics or the media (which is why I ration my consumption of news). Or even something simple, such as the time I saw a person reading a book while at the wheel of a moving car - on a motorway! I could even mention a colleague from my clerical career days who thought he needed to cook a jacket potato in a microwave - for ninety minutes. Not sure where he got that timing from. I appreciate what you posted about emotional aspects and facial expressions. I guess my mindset is based on what I experience here, at comic cons, if chatting with friends about movies. Everyone here seems to be a discerning and intelligent person (I’m not saying that about me!), and I’ve had some really stimulating chats at comic cons, or with a friend who loves movies. I might have hoped Hollywood would try and appeal to the intellectual elements of society, but maybe that’s a pipe dream, eh? It's not about politics (or I didn't intend it to be)-We as a society need McDonald's to label coffee as hot to warn us because a large portion of the population cannot figure that out on their own. There's a trend that wants to try to identify writing generated by AI because of the words it uses like deluge because "normal people don't use bug words like that" and who argue creating AI art takes more creativity and talent than traditionally produced art. People as a whole should not be credited with intelligence. There are certainly individuals who are, but people as a whole, not so much. (dripping sarcasm here=) As for comic fans, they seem to have trouble figuring out volumes and issue numbers if there is more than one volume or more than one #1 based on the complaints here, so no I don't think comic or genre fans score any better than the mass audience on this matter. -M The numbering thing for me is more about frustration pertaining to a lack of history (I’d rather see a 600th issue than a new number 1) and a lack of desire to do “homework” to find out exactly which Deadpool ‘number 1’ follows on from the last one (Wikipedia and even Marvel.com don’t always provide clarity); however, and again I’m not including myself in this, it feels like people here, and elsewhere in the comic fan world, seem intelligent when chatting about themes and storylines. |
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Post by driver1980 on Apr 16, 2024 18:19:22 GMT -5
You can emote even without seeing someone's face. For instance music during scenes can be a powerful agent in that, think Vader debating what to do with the Emperor frying Luke in Jedi. Full helmet looking back and forth, but John Williams is the one really amping up the mood and you feel Vader's conflict. Or another non-verbal cue like when he would raise that "choke" hand of his, such a simple gesture but the association of what that means conveys his mood pretty clearly. While it’s a different thing in many respects, wrestling needs to let its wrestlers show emotion, and lucha libre (wrestling in Mexico for anyone who doesn’t follow the sport) features a lot of masked wrestlers. I’m not going to claim that wrestling is exactly akin to movies or comics, but the wrestlers need to be able to take fans on a journey, show emotion, make people care about the matches, etc. And masks are no barrier to them doing that. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2024 18:25:06 GMT -5
As an American who went to see that Dredd movie when it came out, it was a huge disappointment when Stallone was stripped of the Dredd look so early in the movie. I was only a very casual Dredd fan and I liked plenty of prior Stallone movies, but I certainly did not go to that movie to "see his face". The fact that it particularly bombed in North America I think indicates I was not alone. Don't make a Dredd movie if you don't think Dredd himself is viable as a character. The goal should have been the audience saying "Stallone did great as Dredd" not "Dredd did great as Stallone". That makes perfect sense for someone who heard of “Judge Dredd” prior to the film. But that’s a small minority of Americans who saw the film. Sure, totally fair point. But here's my thought...we loved Stallone as Rocky. We loved him as Rambo. Those characters captured our imaginations. Dredd may have been largely unfamiliar to American audiences, but it was up to Hollywood to make us love Stallone as Dredd. And they didn't really give us full on Dredd. Whether a more faithful depiction might have been more successful I don't know, but again they didn't really deliver a good alternative either. I kind of think if you're going to stray from the source material, better have a good plan. |
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Post by driver1980 on Apr 16, 2024 18:38:58 GMT -5
That makes perfect sense for someone who heard of “Judge Dredd” prior to the film. But that’s a small minority of Americans who saw the film. Sure, totally fair point. But here's my thought...we loved Stallone as Rocky. We loved him as Rambo. Those characters captured our imaginations. Dredd may have been largely unfamiliar to American audiences, but it was up to Hollywood to make us love Stallone as Dredd. And they didn't really give us full on Dredd. Whether a more faithful depiction might have been more successful I don't know, but again they didn't really deliver a good alternative either. I kind of think if you're going to stray from the source material, better have a good plan. I totally agree. If Hollywood wanted to go with what they did, it should have either been “Demolition Man II” or a totally new hero. I do feel Dredd could be better served as a series (or mini-series) on a streaming platform not reliant on box office. Such a series could also show a more low-key story, such as an episode doing a routine Dredd story featuring him dealing with joyriders and graffiti artists, allowing other episodes to deal with bigger stuff such as Judge Death. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 16, 2024 21:27:15 GMT -5
You can emote through body language; but, American actors, traditionally, do not have extensive training in mime...not the streetcorner type, but real mime, as in Marcel Marceau and the like. That is a major aid to expressing ideas and emotions, through body work, rather than facial expression. That and dance.
I saw Judge Dredd, when it came out, after reading a handful of stories and thought it started well, had some good moments, but fell apart quickly and did seem scatter-brained. Stallone wasn't the worst thing in it (not while Schneider was around). I think a bigger thing affecting it was the fact that Robocop pretty much ripped it off and, as a film, did it far better than the Judge Dredd film.
With Dredd, Urban captured the character well and they got certain aspects well; but, neither truly captured the comics well, based on my reading since. Elements, yes; but not the overall voice and feel of them.
Personally, I though Demolition Man was a more entertaining film than either Dredd films, though I did want to see Nigel Hawthorne go into a long explanation of circular logic and confusing vocabulary, just like Sir Humphrey Applebee.
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Post by Batflunkie on Apr 16, 2024 21:42:51 GMT -5
As an American who went to see that Dredd movie when it came out, it was a huge disappointment when Stallone was stripped of the Dredd look so early in the movie. I was only a very casual Dredd fan and I liked plenty of prior Stallone movies, but I certainly did not go to that movie to "see his face". The fact that it particularly bombed in North America I think indicates I was not alone. Don't make a Dredd movie if you don't think Dredd himself is viable as a character. The goal should have been the audience saying "Stallone did great as Dredd" not "Dredd did great as Stallone". What's surprising to me is how many people didn't understand that it was based on an actual comic book, even with all the old fleetway/quality/eagle comics on the title screen. There were so many online outlets who thought the Karl Urban Dredd movie when it was in production/coming out was a reboot of the Stallone film and not an actual property that had a lifespan beyond the silver screen So, ignorance and bean-counting brainlessness trumped creativity? What a world, eh? If there were more people who put aside money for actual passion, the world would be a much happier place. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, not yet anyway |
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Post by foxley on Apr 17, 2024 3:06:47 GMT -5
I feel we should be able to credit people with intelligence. Have you looked at the world we live in? That's a big ask! It's the same reason Chris Evans runs around without a Cap mask in most of the movies and they developed the the inside the helmet look for Robert Downey Jr as Iron Man and why every Spidey has unmasked for significant portions of the movie. On a more practical creative side, it is very difficult for characters in helmets and masks to emote and connect to audiences as well, so removing the mask/helmet creates not just audience recognition but audience connections and ability to identify emotional aspects of scenes through facial expressions. Real world Spider-mask eyes don't go wide or narrow when Spidey needs to emote for the audience the way they can in comics. -M But as comic readers we also know what Steve Rogers, Peter Parker and Tony Stark look like. Part of Dredd's mystique is that he is never seen without his helmet. The V for Vendetta didn't feel the need to show us V without his Guy Fawkes mask. If it had been an entirely American production with an American writer and direction, V would have ripped off his mask 30 seconds after saving Evey, they would have fallen passionately in love and then it would have been revealed that V was the rightful prime minister.
And if you're going to a Judge Dredd film to watch Dredd emote, I respectfully suggest that you have misunderstood the character.  |
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Post by tonebone on Apr 18, 2024 13:52:01 GMT -5
I feel we should be able to credit people with intelligence. Have you looked at the world we live in? That's a big ask! It's the same reason Chris Evans runs around without a Cap mask in most of the movies and they developed the the inside the helmet look for Robert Downey Jr as Iron Man and why every Spidey has unmasked for significant portions of the movie. On a more practical creative side, it is very difficult for characters in helmets and masks to emote and connect to audiences as well, so removing the mask/helmet creates not just audience recognition but audience connections and ability to identify emotional aspects of scenes through facial expressions. Real world Spider-mask eyes don't go wide or narrow when Spidey needs to emote for the audience the way they can in comics. -M Spider-Man 2 used the "maskless" Spidey brilliantly... when he's unmasked on the runnaway elevated train scene... everyone sees his face, they hand him back his mask, and you KNOW they all will keep his secret, no matter what. Such a powerful scene, maybe the best in the whole franchise(s). |
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Post by MDG on Apr 18, 2024 14:53:04 GMT -5
Spider-Man 2 used the "maskless" Spidey brilliantly... when he's unmasked on the runnaway elevated train scene... everyone sees his face, they hand him back his mask, and you KNOW they all will keep his secret, no matter what. Such a powerful scene, maybe the best in the whole franchise(s). Certainly one of the few scenes I remember most clearly from any Marvel movie |
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 18, 2024 16:55:51 GMT -5
Spider-Man 2 used the "maskless" Spidey brilliantly... when he's unmasked on the runnaway elevated train scene... everyone sees his face, they hand him back his mask, and you KNOW they all will keep his secret, no matter what. Such a powerful scene, maybe the best in the whole franchise(s). Certainly one of the few scenes I remember most clearly from any Marvel movie Rather than a wet Kirsten Dunst swallowing Toby Maguire's tongue? |
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