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Post by kirby101 on Aug 6, 2024 20:41:31 GMT -5
So I watched a Stan interview where he claims Goodman asked him to do a superhero team book because of JLA, but Stan wanted no costumes. And then he he blamed the early fan mail for demanding the addition of costumes and gave in. Versus the hypothesis I found that Goodman actually said no costumes initially out of concern for DC's reaction. Do not, and I repeat, do not believe a word Stan said about any of this. His many conflicting recollections are all not worth any consideration when trying to get at any truth. There is no way that by the time Kirby was drawing the pages to FF #3 that they got enough, if any at all fan mail from FF #2 to make a difference. It is typical Stan BS. |
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 6, 2024 20:46:17 GMT -5
What I’ve noticed is that the existing titles get revamped even before the superheroes begin. Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish and Tales to Astonish get new cover designs roughly around the time that the company switches names from Atlas to MC and there’s a renewed focus on storytelling. Stan clearly had big plans for Amazing Adult Fantasy as well as it gets just as much promotion as The Fantastic Four. That suggests to me that changes were afoot well before someone came up with the idea for the FF. From the mid 50s implosion on, there were ongoing changes at Marvel. They went from western and teen comics to the Sci-fi books to the supes. I don't think Stan had big plans for anything, except hoping something would work and he could keep his job. The story about the furniture about to be carried out might be hyperbolic, but Marvel was close to being shut down more than once. The only big plans Stan might have had for QA fantasy was to have Ditko do more great work.Thatvwas Ditko's book, he did all the stories. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2024 21:29:33 GMT -5
So I watched a Stan interview where he claims Goodman asked him to do a superhero team book because of JLA, but Stan wanted no costumes. And then he he blamed the early fan mail for demanding the addition of costumes and gave in. Versus the hypothesis I found that Goodman actually said no costumes initially out of concern for DC's reaction. Do not, and I repeat, do not believe a word Stan said about any of this. His many conflicting recollections are all not worth any consideration when trying to get at any truth. There is no way that by the time Kirby was drawing the pages to FF #3 that they got enough, if any at all fan mail from FF #2 to make a difference. It is typical Stan BS. In the immortal words of Inspector Clouseau, I believe everything and I believe nothing. |
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 6, 2024 21:44:00 GMT -5
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Post by commond on Aug 6, 2024 22:18:09 GMT -5
What I’ve noticed is that the existing titles get revamped even before the superheroes begin. Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish and Tales to Astonish get new cover designs roughly around the time that the company switches names from Atlas to MC and there’s a renewed focus on storytelling. Stan clearly had big plans for Amazing Adult Fantasy as well as it gets just as much promotion as The Fantastic Four. That suggests to me that changes were afoot well before someone came up with the idea for the FF. From the mid 50s implosion on, there were ongoing changes at Marvel. They went from western and teen comics to the Sci-fi books to the supes. I don't think Stan had big plans for anything, except hoping something would work and he could keep his job. The story about the furniture about to be carried out might be hyperbolic, but Marvel was close to being shut down more than once. The only big plans Stan might have had for QA fantasy was to have Ditko do more great work.Thatvwas Ditko's book, he did all the stories. Stan took a vested interest in the Ditko stories. He’d even cover blurb the stories with credits at times. I think he had high hopes for Amazing Adult Fantasy, and indeed it was presented as The Fantastic Four’s sister title in the in-house advertising. I haven’t gotten to those issues yet so I don’t know how well they succeed in not insulting people’s intelligence. |
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Aug 6, 2024 23:42:34 GMT -5
From the mid 50s implosion on, there were ongoing changes at Marvel. They went from western and teen comics to the Sci-fi books to the supes. I don't think Stan had big plans for anything, except hoping something would work and he could keep his job. The story about the furniture about to be carried out might be hyperbolic, but Marvel was close to being shut down more than once. The only big plans Stan might have had for QA fantasy was to have Ditko do more great work.Thatvwas Ditko's book, he did all the stories. Stan took a vested interest in the Ditko stories. He’d even cover blurb the stories with credits at times. I think he had high hopes for Amazing Adult Fantasy, and indeed it was presented as The Fantastic Four’s sister title in the in-house advertising. I haven’t gotten to those issues yet so I don’t know how well they succeed in not insulting people’s intelligence. I've read them. The art is great, the stories are not. As I was going through them I kept thinking "I can't believe the same team would produce some of the best comic books of all time a short while later". There are a few stories of interest (one featuring the first pre-X Men mutant character in, I believe, issue 14), but Spider-Man is by far the best story in all the issues and it's not even close |
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Post by commond on Aug 6, 2024 23:56:33 GMT -5
I’m curious to read them. I really liked the late 50s Ditko five pagers, but the quality has dropped off in the most recent stories and those are the stories advertising AAF in the other mags. I don’t know if it was a case of Stan becoming too involved in the stories or Ditko being stretched thin.
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Post by aaronstack on Aug 7, 2024 4:39:55 GMT -5
That said, the FF were always more Science Adventurers than superheroes. This hits the nail on the head for me. Perhaps one of the (many) reasons the 21st century FF films didn't work - they were doing them as superheroes. |
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 7, 2024 8:27:47 GMT -5
As for the AAF stories. I could see coming up with so many of these short tales gets to diminished returns. We talked before about the Monster books getting repetitious. Whether it was Stan or Steve, being able to come up with four new stories every month, with cool concepts and plots, and good characters is a tall task.
Spider-Man allowed a continuing story, and they could concentrate on the characters as well as the story. Even though there is a some sameness to the Spidey vs this month's villain stories, the villain themselves and how he fought them was varied and exciting enough to keep the reader happy. And the plot lines with Peter could be stretched over several issues, allowing for more thoughtful writing.
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Post by silverdollar22 on Aug 7, 2024 13:50:42 GMT -5
Hi, everybody. Longtime lurker (and enjoyer of the post-Crisis Batman and Wonder Woman review threads!), first-time poster...
I've got about six or seven niche hobbies spinning out of my love for comics, maybe the nichest of which is poring over all the little (and sometimes not-so-little) rewrites that happen when floppies get collected for trade. Right now in particular, I'm investigating rumors that certain prints of A Death in the Family replaced all mentions of Iran with "Syraq" (or "Qurac"), and some went so far as to actually remove the infamous Khomeini panel (how they'd rebalance the rest of that page I have no idea).
Absolutely none of the editions of A Death in the Family I've seen in person have ever borne any of these edits, and I've been looking since at least the late '00s. Obviously they wouldn't be found in any version DC put out after 2010 or so, since those would use the digitized masters of Batman #426-29, which directly copied the original floppies; and obviously the very earliest prints (from 1989 or thereabouts) wouldn't bother, either. Which means if such a censored version exists, it probably came out in the '90s.
Most of you guys are old enough to have been buying trades during the '90s, I expect. Do any of you remember anything that can lend credence to these rumors? I've been stalking about twenty different sellers on eBay and Mercari now and it's looking more and more like there was never any censored print.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Aug 7, 2024 13:54:34 GMT -5
Hi, everybody. Longtime lurker (and enjoyer of the post- Crisis Batman and Wonder Woman review threads!), first-time poster... I've got about six or seven niche hobbies spinning out of my love for comics, maybe the nichest of which is poring over all the little (and sometimes not-so-little) rewrites that happen when floppies get collected for trade. Right now in particular, I'm investigating rumors that certain prints of A Death in the Family replaced all mentions of Iran with "Syraq" (or "Qurac"), and some went so far as to actually remove the infamous Khomeini panel (how they'd rebalance the rest of that page I have no idea). Absolutely none of the editions of A Death in the Family I've seen in person have ever borne any of these edits, and I've been looking since at least the late '00s. Obviously they wouldn't be found in any version DC put out after 2010 or so, since those would use the digitized masters of Batman #426-29, which directly copied the original floppies; and obviously the very earliest prints (from 1989 or thereabouts) wouldn't bother, either. Which means if such a censored version exists, it probably came out in the '90s. Most of you guys are old enough to have been buying trades during the '90s, I expect. Do any of you remember anything that can lend credence to these rumors? I've been stalking about twenty different sellers on eBay and Mercari now and it's looking more and more like there was never any censored print. Our fearless leader shaxper has a thread on the foreign editions of those issues, so he might be the person most familiar with multiple editions of the story. You can find his thread on Death in the Family here. -M |
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Post by silverdollar22 on Aug 7, 2024 14:19:01 GMT -5
Hi, everybody. Longtime lurker (and enjoyer of the post- Crisis Batman and Wonder Woman review threads!), first-time poster... I've got about six or seven niche hobbies spinning out of my love for comics, maybe the nichest of which is poring over all the little (and sometimes not-so-little) rewrites that happen when floppies get collected for trade. Right now in particular, I'm investigating rumors that certain prints of A Death in the Family replaced all mentions of Iran with "Syraq" (or "Qurac"), and some went so far as to actually remove the infamous Khomeini panel (how they'd rebalance the rest of that page I have no idea). Absolutely none of the editions of A Death in the Family I've seen in person have ever borne any of these edits, and I've been looking since at least the late '00s. Obviously they wouldn't be found in any version DC put out after 2010 or so, since those would use the digitized masters of Batman #426-29, which directly copied the original floppies; and obviously the very earliest prints (from 1989 or thereabouts) wouldn't bother, either. Which means if such a censored version exists, it probably came out in the '90s. Most of you guys are old enough to have been buying trades during the '90s, I expect. Do any of you remember anything that can lend credence to these rumors? I've been stalking about twenty different sellers on eBay and Mercari now and it's looking more and more like there was never any censored print. Our fearless leader shaxper has a thread on the foreign editions of those issues, so he might be the person most familiar with multiple editions of the story. You can find his thread on Death in the Family here. -M Oh, wow! I'd remembered reading his review back in the day ( "Hey man, you wanna Patriot Missile? First buy's free"), but I never knew he had such a personal fascination with the story! |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 7, 2024 16:34:28 GMT -5
Hi, everybody. Longtime lurker (and enjoyer of the post- Crisis Batman and Wonder Woman review threads!), first-time poster... I've got about six or seven niche hobbies spinning out of my love for comics, maybe the nichest of which is poring over all the little (and sometimes not-so-little) rewrites that happen when floppies get collected for trade. Right now in particular, I'm investigating rumors that certain prints of A Death in the Family replaced all mentions of Iran with "Syraq" (or "Qurac"), and some went so far as to actually remove the infamous Khomeini panel (how they'd rebalance the rest of that page I have no idea). Absolutely none of the editions of A Death in the Family I've seen in person have ever borne any of these edits, and I've been looking since at least the late '00s. Obviously they wouldn't be found in any version DC put out after 2010 or so, since those would use the digitized masters of Batman #426-29, which directly copied the original floppies; and obviously the very earliest prints (from 1989 or thereabouts) wouldn't bother, either. Which means if such a censored version exists, it probably came out in the '90s. Most of you guys are old enough to have been buying trades during the '90s, I expect. Do any of you remember anything that can lend credence to these rumors? I've been stalking about twenty different sellers on eBay and Mercari now and it's looking more and more like there was never any censored print. It wouldn't surprise me if the rumor were true, as I've always been surprised DC let Starlin call out a foreign leader directly, but I've neither heard nor seen anything to confirm it. I'll take a look through my foreign editions, but I'm not sure I'll be able to determine much without being able to comprehend the languages. |
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Post by silverdollar22 on Aug 7, 2024 17:42:33 GMT -5
Hi, everybody. Longtime lurker (and enjoyer of the post- Crisis Batman and Wonder Woman review threads!), first-time poster... I've got about six or seven niche hobbies spinning out of my love for comics, maybe the nichest of which is poring over all the little (and sometimes not-so-little) rewrites that happen when floppies get collected for trade. Right now in particular, I'm investigating rumors that certain prints of A Death in the Family replaced all mentions of Iran with "Syraq" (or "Qurac"), and some went so far as to actually remove the infamous Khomeini panel (how they'd rebalance the rest of that page I have no idea). Absolutely none of the editions of A Death in the Family I've seen in person have ever borne any of these edits, and I've been looking since at least the late '00s. Obviously they wouldn't be found in any version DC put out after 2010 or so, since those would use the digitized masters of Batman #426-29, which directly copied the original floppies; and obviously the very earliest prints (from 1989 or thereabouts) wouldn't bother, either. Which means if such a censored version exists, it probably came out in the '90s. Most of you guys are old enough to have been buying trades during the '90s, I expect. Do any of you remember anything that can lend credence to these rumors? I've been stalking about twenty different sellers on eBay and Mercari now and it's looking more and more like there was never any censored print. It wouldn't surprise me if the rumor were true, as I've always been surprised DC let Starlin call out a foreign leader directly, but I've neither heard nor seen anything to confirm it. I'll take a look through my foreign editions, but I'm not sure I'll be able to determine much without being able to comprehend the languages. Ah, the man himself! I'm honored  ... and also curious, how many copies of ADitF do you own, just in English? Like, do you have the very first trade? One of the later ones that bundles it together with "A Lonely Place of Dying"? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 7, 2024 17:59:36 GMT -5
Just thinking out loud; but, I'd be willing to bet that if any changes occurred, they were more recent, possibly in light of the Charlie Hebdo attack, in France, in 2015. I haven't looked at a trade in years, as I was never a fan of the storyline, in its original release. It has been called out for be Islamophobic; but you could say that about a large portion of Starlin's Batman run. He had a pretty one-dimensional view of both terrorism and Shiite Muslims. Even the Mack Bolan book series was more nuanced than those comics.
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