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Post by Ricky Jackson on Aug 6, 2024 11:04:19 GMT -5
National/DC was very litigious at that point, or at least had been in the 40s and 50s. Just a few years earlier they had basically forced Simon & Kirby's Double Life of Private Strong off the racks with a cease and desist, so it makes sense that publishers at the time would tread lightly when it came to superheroes
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Post by mikelmidnight on Aug 6, 2024 11:09:00 GMT -5
I'd not seen that cover before! I'm not sure I do prefer human-headed Johnny (sounds like a member of the original Outsiders), but giving him black gloves (and I assume boots, and maybe belt?) would be a different look.
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 6, 2024 11:21:26 GMT -5
@supercat, that could well be part of it. I think there were a lot of moving parts and a lot in flux when they did this. Clearly there was a mandate or go ahead from Goodman before they did this book. So he would have input. I don't know if has been confirmed, but I have seen speculation that Goodman wanted one of the characters to be the Human Torch, since he owned it.
Goodman's bad distribution deal was a big component to what was happening at Marvel in the 50s and early Silver Age. While it was more a creative process when they did the actual books, we should remember that which books to publish or cancel were business decisions that had little to do with the quality of the comics.
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 6, 2024 11:24:19 GMT -5
I'm sure others here have seen this before, but I hadn't, an unused cover for FF #3. The final published is still the winner for me, but I kind of like this, and hate to admit it, I kind of like Johnny's head not being on fire (and the black gloves for some reason) even though I'm not sure that would make sense and diverges from the homage to the original Torch.  That is interesting, but no question the one they used was far better. And you gotta love Stan, probably before sales numbers to issue #1 were even in, proclaming it the Greatest Comic in the World. 
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2024 11:27:17 GMT -5
kirby101, oh yeah, no argument here, that's a stunner and so iconic, one of my favorites.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 6, 2024 12:26:21 GMT -5
Most comics, before the arrival of fans-turned-pros, were done on the fly, with little planning ahead, other than print deadlines and such. There are some notable exceptions to that, like the serialized Monster Society of Evil storyline, in Captain Marvel Adventures. Any company's material I have read, before the late 60s/early 70s, you can see they are throwing out ideas, then building on them again, based on reader response and sales, with more and more elaborate plots when the fans start working in comics and want to link to favorite past stories, in a clearer continuity. That's generally how most serialized fiction progresses.
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 6, 2024 16:24:56 GMT -5
That is interesting, but no question the one they used was far better. And you gotta love Stan, probably before sales numbers to issue #1 were even in, proclaming it the Greatest Comic in the World.
The cover for FF 3 is one of my favourites. It still bugs me that they didn't go with this one for the cover of the first Epic Collection! |
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Aug 6, 2024 16:46:29 GMT -5
Didn't former poster tolworthy have a whole thread devoted to the monstrous origins of FF#1 and the idea it used recycled stories as part of his process of writing his "The FF is the Great American Novel" book or monograph. I think those threads are still floating around but probably took place before most of the people partaking in this discussion were active members. I think there's a link to his (Chris? Tolworthy) book in his profile too iirc. But if its a topic you want to delve into more, the thread and the book are good places to start.
-M
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2024 17:30:08 GMT -5
Thanks MRP, that may be worth looking up as well.
I always assumed to some degree the FF recycled the Challengers of the Unknown concept, and yeah, of course there's some classic monster storytelling going on at the start (recycled, derivative, whatever happened to be the case). These feel like the more apparent roots.
I was more thinking of the switch to really branding this as a superhero team, and was there something like what I posted from the Brevoort site like maybe they were initially treading a little carefully with DC. But maybe not, maybe they started with something a little more tried and true and just flipped the switch on the fly with issue #3.
The reasons I think it bears a little closer examination are 1) they would have been aware of what was going on with DC like with JLA, 2) they did add super powers to the team right out of the gate even though they kept them plain clothed and fighting monsters, and 3) the switch happened quickly with issue #3.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Aug 6, 2024 17:37:41 GMT -5
Here's tolworthy's thread on FF #1. If you search for his profile in members and click on threads started, there's a bunch of similar threads examining aspects of Kirby, the MU, etc. so if you enjoy that kind of analysis, you can feast there. -M |
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 6, 2024 17:57:25 GMT -5
@supercat, It is worth the consideration. It's just hard to know. I doubt they talked about it when they started as a main part of the whole thing. Maybe Goodman made a comment or two about not copying DC. Who knows? They wanted to keep the lights on, so they were trying things. They did not know if they would still be there in a year.
The JLA was not a big gamble for DC. It had Superman and Batman, who always sold. The other new Superheroes where the experiment. Flash, Green Lantern, Grenn Arrow, the Challengers. The started those in the late 50s with the hope they could make super heroes viable again. And it worked.
That is why I discount the JLA as a prime moving in this. It wasn't a new team book, it was the old JSA reformatted, with their star characters. It's why many think The Challengers were a bigger impetus for the FF.
And has been said, Goodman owned plenty of superheroes if he wanted a JLA clone. And the JLA was more likely the reason for the Avengers.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2024 18:05:53 GMT -5
So I watched a Stan interview where he claims Goodman asked him to do a superhero team book because of JLA, but Stan wanted no costumes. And then he he blamed the early fan mail for demanding the addition of costumes and gave in. Versus the hypothesis I found that Goodman actually said no costumes initially out of concern for DC's reaction.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2024 18:08:22 GMT -5
@supercat , It is worth the consideration. It's just hard to know. I doubt they talked about it when they started as a main part of the whole thing. Maybe Goodman made a comment or two about not copying DC. Who knows? They wanted to keep the lights on, so they were trying things. They did not know if they would still be there in a year. The JLA was not a big gamble for DC. It had Superman and Batman, who always sold. The other new Superheroes where the experiment. Flash, Green Lantern, Grenn Arrow, the Challengers. The started those in the late 50s with the hope they could make super heroes viable again. And it worked. That is why I discount the JLA as a prime moving in this. It wasn't a new team book, it was the old JSA reformatted, with their star characters. It's why many think The Challengers were a bigger impetus for the FF. And has been said, Goodman owned plenty of superheroes if he wanted a JLA clone. And the JLA was more likely the reason for the Avengers. I posted my prior comment before reading this, and yeah, I agree, I'm sure it's hard to know. |
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Post by Rob Allen on Aug 6, 2024 18:37:39 GMT -5
If Goodman had a conversation with someone about comic book sales trends, at a golf game or elsewhere, that conversation was probably with Paul Sampliner, not with Donenfeld or Liebowitz. Sampliner ran the distribution company, Independent, which is the company that actually had the contract with Goodman. It was a sibling company of DC, but it was managed separately.
Even without such a conversation, Goodman knew what was going on - all of the continuing and revived heroes from DC and Joe Simon's books for Archie (you can bet that Goodman kept an eye on Joe Simon). The success of Captain Atom from Charlton may have been what convinced Goodman to try a superhero book.
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Post by commond on Aug 6, 2024 19:23:37 GMT -5
What I’ve noticed is that the existing titles get revamped even before the superheroes begin. Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish and Tales to Astonish get new cover designs roughly around the time that the company switches names from Atlas to MC and there’s a renewed focus on storytelling. Stan clearly had big plans for Amazing Adult Fantasy as well as it gets just as much promotion as The Fantastic Four. That suggests to me that changes were afoot well before someone came up with the idea for the FF.
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