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Post by tonebone on Jan 1, 2023 18:33:59 GMT -5
I also like Cartoonist Kayfabe, but I must admit to leaning towards Rugg, vs. Piskor. Whenever Piskor calls artists "jobbers", with a little hint of derision, it rubs me the wrong way. As if what he and Rugg do is elevated above Kirby, Sinnott, Ditko, Ayers, and the rest who worked hard for a living. When Piskor uses that, I don't think he targets the guys who worked in an era where you had no choice, I think he is indicating folks who have the chance to pursue their own vision and creative freedom, to take a risk to self-publish or work outside the assembly line system but choose to take the assembly line pay rate and such. Yes, they may work hard for a living, but they are taking less than what they could make (higher floor, lower ceiling on earning potential) and the safe same old same old of playing in someone else's sandbox churning out the same status quo books instead of doing something of their own or something that says or does something new. You can agree or disagree with him as you like, but he shows a deep respect for some of the innovators who worked in that system when there was no other choice (the Kirby's Ditko's Adams' and the like of the work-for-hire only era). Piskor's done both, but even when he's taken work-for-hire stuff, he's pushed the boundaries of the medium with it and not just churned out house style assembly line pages for a safe sub-standard page rate. But he's gotten the opportunities he has had because he's taken chances and shook things up and not just taken the Big 2 dole to churn out house style pages. -M Maybe they were happy. Maybe they didn't give a squat about shaking things up or breaking new ground. Maybe they were just happy to be earning a living drawing. It's not the superstars on a baseball team who win the world series. It's the guys you hardly hear about. He shows respect for the "innovators", but not for the "jobbers". The term itself is derogatory, in the way he uses it. Your first paragraph describes EXACTLY Kirby's career for the first 40 or so years. He was unwilling to take those chances because he was protecting his family, and there is nobility in that. Piskor needs to watch a few episodes of "Dirty Jobs", and stop basking in delusions of grandeur, just because he regurgitated the brilliance of the X-Men "jobbers" and "made it art". |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 1, 2023 18:47:15 GMT -5
It's also a pro wrestling term for the underneath guys who would lose to the stars, on television, to make them look god. Kayfabe is the carny language that was traditionally used in pro wrestling, to keep business secret from outsiders, before Vince McMahon went out publicly to admit it was just a show, to get out from under the control of state athletic commissions (and their taxes). It is a bit odd to apply to comics, as it was never an insider business, since it was basic publishing. About the only things the publishers kept secret was how little they paid the talent and maybe some of the shady characters who they did business with (or hired, in some cases). There is definitely a modern trend of applying pro wrestling terms and logic to comic books, but it doesn't always work, beyond superhero publishing. There is a definite parallel in storytelling and plotting; but it doesn't work as well if you are discussing Love & Rockets, for example, than the latest version of the Justice League. Using that concept, who would be Marvel's Four Horsemen, beyond Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko? John Romita? Gene Colan? Don Heck? Larry Lieber? Roy Thomas? Bearing in mind that I know nothing about wrestling, and have no idea who these Four Horsemen are (but I'm assuming they are not the ones from Discworld), What If...? #11 ('What If the Original Marvel Bullpen Had Become the Fantastic Four?") suggests it might have been Flo Steinberg. The Four Horsemen were a collection of the top heels for Jim Crockett Promotions, aka "The NWA" in the mid-late 1980s. Crockett had promoted throughout the Carolinas and Virginia and had bought up the tv time slot for World Championship Wrestling, on Superstation WTBS, from Vince McMahon, after his takeover from Georgia Championship Wrestling. Crockett became almost the de facto existence of the once wide ranging National Wrestling Alliance international conglomeration of wrestling promoters; and, just about the only major competition to the WWF, as it expanded nationally. Through 1987, Crockett actually outdrew the WWF in some markets and were so strong in others that the WWF were unable to promote in those areas. During an interview segment, to save time, booker Dusty Rhodes had all of the top heels together, to do their promos for their matches. Arn Anderson made the off the cuff remark that "The only time this much havoc had been wreaked by this few a number of people, you need to go all the way back to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse!" The grouping consisted of Ole and Arn Anderson (National tag-team champions), Tully Blanchard (alternating between holding the tv title and the US title) and NWA World Champion Ric Flair, plus Blanchard's manager, JJ Dillon. All had been in the mix of opponents of Dusty Rhodes, as the top babyface. The phrase caught on and the group had already been involved in gang attacks on Rhodes (mostly the Andersons and Flair) and the name stuck and Dusty pushed them as a group, as the Elite of the Elite. They were one of the top draws in the country and fans even flashed the four-fingered hand sign on WWF tv, to Vince McMahon's exasperation. The idea was that they were the Best of the Best; the foundation of the organization. So, for Marvel, Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were all the major cornerstones of the rise of Marvel comics, from the Atlas doldrums. The question is, who would you put as a fourth member of that? Flo was a behind the scenes, so I'd categorize her more like a JJ Dillon, who managed the Horsemen, or Baby Doll (Nickla Roberts), who was Tully's valet, before she turned on him and joined with Dusty Rhodes and Magnum TA (Terry Allen). That is, more of an associate member than one of the key figures, since she wasn't involved in the creative side of Marvel, but in the administrative. |
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Post by Calidore on Jan 1, 2023 20:03:13 GMT -5
I'm not terribly knowledgable about early Marvel personnel, but would Marie Severin be eligible as the fourth?
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Post by foxley on Jan 1, 2023 21:25:08 GMT -5
Bearing in mind that I know nothing about wrestling, and have no idea who these Four Horsemen are (but I'm assuming they are not the ones from Discworld), What If...? #11 ('What If the Original Marvel Bullpen Had Become the Fantastic Four?") suggests it might have been Flo Steinberg. The Four Horsemen were a collection of the top heels for Jim Crockett Promotions, aka "The NWA" in the mid-late 1980s. Crockett had promoted throughout the Carolinas and Virginia and had bought up the tv time slot for World Championship Wrestling, on Superstation WTBS, from Vince McMahon, after his takeover from Georgia Championship Wrestling. Crockett became almost the de facto existence of the once wide ranging National Wrestling Alliance international conglomeration of wrestling promoters; and, just about the only major competition to the WWF, as it expanded nationally. Through 1987, Crockett actually outdrew the WWF in some markets and were so strong in others that the WWF were unable to promote in those areas. During an interview segment, to save time, booker Dusty Rhodes had all of the top heels together, to do their promos for their matches. Arn Anderson made the off the cuff remark that "The only time this much havoc had been wreaked by this few a number of people, you need to go all the way back to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse!" The grouping consisted of Ole and Arn Anderson (National tag-team champions), Tully Blanchard (alternating between holding the tv title and the US title) and NWA World Champion Ric Flair, plus Blanchard's manager, JJ Dillon. All had been in the mix of opponents of Dusty Rhodes, as the top babyface. The phrase caught on and the group had already been involved in gang attacks on Rhodes (mostly the Andersons and Flair) and the name stuck and Dusty pushed them as a group, as the Elite of the Elite. They were one of the top draws in the country and fans even flashed the four-fingered hand sign on WWF tv, to Vince McMahon's exasperation. The idea was that they were the Best of the Best; the foundation of the organization. So, for Marvel, Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were all the major cornerstones of the rise of Marvel comics, from the Atlas doldrums. The question is, who would you put as a fourth member of that? Flo was a behind the scenes, so I'd categorize her more like a JJ Dillon, who managed the Horsemen, or Baby Doll (Nickla Roberts), who was Tully's valet, before she turned on him and joined with Dusty Rhodes and Magnum TA (Terry Allen). That is, more of an associate member than one of the key figures, since she wasn't involved in the creative side of Marvel, but in the administrative. *nods and smiles blankly*
Didn't understand a word of that. But that's usually the case whenever someone tries to explain anything sport-related to me. Or 'pretend fighting' or whatever the hell wrestling is.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 2, 2023 0:50:06 GMT -5
The Four Horsemen were a collection of the top heels for Jim Crockett Promotions, aka "The NWA" in the mid-late 1980s. Crockett had promoted throughout the Carolinas and Virginia and had bought up the tv time slot for World Championship Wrestling, on Superstation WTBS, from Vince McMahon, after his takeover from Georgia Championship Wrestling. Crockett became almost the de facto existence of the once wide ranging National Wrestling Alliance international conglomeration of wrestling promoters; and, just about the only major competition to the WWF, as it expanded nationally. Through 1987, Crockett actually outdrew the WWF in some markets and were so strong in others that the WWF were unable to promote in those areas. During an interview segment, to save time, booker Dusty Rhodes had all of the top heels together, to do their promos for their matches. Arn Anderson made the off the cuff remark that "The only time this much havoc had been wreaked by this few a number of people, you need to go all the way back to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse!" The grouping consisted of Ole and Arn Anderson (National tag-team champions), Tully Blanchard (alternating between holding the tv title and the US title) and NWA World Champion Ric Flair, plus Blanchard's manager, JJ Dillon. All had been in the mix of opponents of Dusty Rhodes, as the top babyface. The phrase caught on and the group had already been involved in gang attacks on Rhodes (mostly the Andersons and Flair) and the name stuck and Dusty pushed them as a group, as the Elite of the Elite. They were one of the top draws in the country and fans even flashed the four-fingered hand sign on WWF tv, to Vince McMahon's exasperation. The idea was that they were the Best of the Best; the foundation of the organization. So, for Marvel, Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were all the major cornerstones of the rise of Marvel comics, from the Atlas doldrums. The question is, who would you put as a fourth member of that? Flo was a behind the scenes, so I'd categorize her more like a JJ Dillon, who managed the Horsemen, or Baby Doll (Nickla Roberts), who was Tully's valet, before she turned on him and joined with Dusty Rhodes and Magnum TA (Terry Allen). That is, more of an associate member than one of the key figures, since she wasn't involved in the creative side of Marvel, but in the administrative. *nods and smiles blankly*
Didn't understand a word of that. But that's usually the case whenever someone tries to explain anything sport-related to me. Or 'pretend fighting' or whatever the hell wrestling is.
Putting it simply, if you had to pick four people who represented the creative force behind the rise of Marvel, who would it be? Another popular phrase, these days is "The Mt Rushmore of.....", relating to the four faces of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson and Teddy Roosevelt on the Mt Rushmore National Monument. Washington was the first president and led the Colonial Army, during the revolution. Jefferson was the architect of the Declaration of Independence and much of the US Constitution (especially the Bill of Rights, the 1st ten amendments, securing the civil liberties of citizens), Lincoln preserved the Union during the Civil War and ended the practice of slavery and Roosevelt established the National Park system, which included the Mt Rushmore monument (though he is always the controversial member of the 4). In looking at that with Marvel, Stan Lee is obvious, as the writer and editor of the bulk of the stories upon which there line was built. Jack Kirby is a given, as he was the artist, co-creator and plotter of the largest segment of the initial characters. Steve Ditko shares that with the most popular singular character, Spider-Man, as well as Dr Strange. Those would be the obvious three; so, who is the fourth creative driving force? In the case of Flo Steinberg, I would say as a figure to fandom, yes; but not in the actual creation of the stories and characters. To me, that needs another writer or artist. Given that Marvel was a heavily visually-driven company, an artist would seem logical. Of that generation of artists, who would be next? That group includes people like John Romita, Don Heck, Werner Roth, Gene Colan , Bill Everett and Marie Severin. With writers, you don't have many. Larry Lieber often took over books when Stan was busy elsewhere and also handled things like the western stories. However, he isn't as widely regarded as someone like Roy Thomas. Given that Roy was the boy genius writer, then Stan's hand-picked successor as EIC, he would seem the strongest case from a writer or editor standpoint. Looking beyond just that, you can look at people like production manager Sol Brodsky, as he was a big factor in the look of Marvel's books. So, I was just commenting on the frequent use of wrestling terminology, on the internet, in relation to comics and then cracking a joke about the comic book equivalent of a prominent group of pro wrestlers. However, if you forget the whole wrestling element and just asked, what four people were the main creative force at Marvel, if you had to pick only 4; the most important. Most, would throw out Stan, Jack and Steve; but, the arguments would mostly be about #4. Sorry for the headache. ps. "Pro Wrestling" is everything that "Sports Entertainment" is not!  (That will only mean something to a wrestling fan over the age of 30) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 8:08:38 GMT -5
The Four Horsemen were a collection of the top heels for Jim Crockett Promotions, aka "The NWA" in the mid-late 1980s. Crockett had promoted throughout the Carolinas and Virginia and had bought up the tv time slot for World Championship Wrestling, on Superstation WTBS, from Vince McMahon, after his takeover from Georgia Championship Wrestling. Crockett became almost the de facto existence of the once wide ranging National Wrestling Alliance international conglomeration of wrestling promoters; and, just about the only major competition to the WWF, as it expanded nationally. Through 1987, Crockett actually outdrew the WWF in some markets and were so strong in others that the WWF were unable to promote in those areas. During an interview segment, to save time, booker Dusty Rhodes had all of the top heels together, to do their promos for their matches. Arn Anderson made the off the cuff remark that "The only time this much havoc had been wreaked by this few a number of people, you need to go all the way back to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse!" The grouping consisted of Ole and Arn Anderson (National tag-team champions), Tully Blanchard (alternating between holding the tv title and the US title) and NWA World Champion Ric Flair, plus Blanchard's manager, JJ Dillon. All had been in the mix of opponents of Dusty Rhodes, as the top babyface. The phrase caught on and the group had already been involved in gang attacks on Rhodes (mostly the Andersons and Flair) and the name stuck and Dusty pushed them as a group, as the Elite of the Elite. They were one of the top draws in the country and fans even flashed the four-fingered hand sign on WWF tv, to Vince McMahon's exasperation. The idea was that they were the Best of the Best; the foundation of the organization. So, for Marvel, Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were all the major cornerstones of the rise of Marvel comics, from the Atlas doldrums. The question is, who would you put as a fourth member of that? Flo was a behind the scenes, so I'd categorize her more like a JJ Dillon, who managed the Horsemen, or Baby Doll (Nickla Roberts), who was Tully's valet, before she turned on him and joined with Dusty Rhodes and Magnum TA (Terry Allen). That is, more of an associate member than one of the key figures, since she wasn't involved in the creative side of Marvel, but in the administrative. *nods and smiles blankly*
Didn't understand a word of that. But that's usually the case whenever someone tries to explain anything sport-related to me. Or 'pretend fighting' or whatever the hell wrestling is.
Just check out the wrestling thread. There are only 192 pages of posts… ;-) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 8:09:02 GMT -5
LOL:
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Post by tonebone on Jan 3, 2023 9:41:36 GMT -5
I'm not terribly knowledgable about early Marvel personnel, but would Marie Severin be eligible as the fourth? I would vote for that. She was the unsung backbone of Marvel. Her cover designs and keen production skills kept the lights on, not to mention her art and coloring. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 12:16:09 GMT -5
On sale 45 years ago today:  This story was featured in a pocketbook reprint here in the UK:  I liked pocketbooks. Also, as a kid, I had no concept of what a reprint was (I just presumed us Brits were writing/drawing our own DC adventures). Truth be told, my illusions were shattered when I first came across the term “first printed in…”  So, as I said, I just presumed we were doing our own DC stuff here. I liked the various formats here, from hardback UK annuals to black and white reprints and pocketbooks. |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jan 3, 2023 13:03:22 GMT -5
By the same token, 90s indie Majestic flamed out quickly because their parent company was pirating their own NFL trading cards, to sell without paying royalties and got busted and lost their license. They crashed and took the company down before they could expand on an intriguing premise, in Legacy. Simon & Kirby's Mainline went under because their distributor wouldn't put out their comics, because of the 50s hysteria. First Comics went under because the owners spent so much cash trying to get Classics Illustrated off the ground and into book stores that they couldn't sustain regular operations, despite the revenues generated by their regular titles. Eclipse Comics was pretty much crippled by the flood of their warehouse and offices, since they depended on the sales of back issues to finance new publications. They limped along, borrowing from the future to finance the present. Had they not suffered the flood, they might have lasted through the 90s, with a better financial situation. Malibu disappeared because Marvel just wanted to keep them out of DC's hands (per Tom Mason and Chris Ulm), thereby significantly increasing their market share. They soon shut things down and gained little beyond some computer coloring systems. Fantagraphics nearly went under with the bankruptcy of their retail book distributor, Seven Hills, and had to appeal to the market place to get people to place orders directly with the company, to get enough cash to float them through the crisis. The Borders bankruptcy took down Tokyo Pop, in the US, because Borders had gone deep into manga and owed Tokyo Pop a ton of money.
I'd not heard that re: Malibu. So we might have had the Centaur heroes in the DCM? (I don't think they'd have contributed much, though Roy Thomas would have been happy.)
I'll also add Star*Reach in there, which started off with a bang but made some bad decisions, mainly producing poor-quality color books whose sales didn't justify the additional cost. They also started up a second anthology, Imagine, which ended up being the same as the original Star*Reach title, so they'd have been better off just bringing Star*Reach out more frequently.
I will always mourn the loss of the Englehart & Rogers original Batman graphic novel they were negotiating to produce. Plans were underway but then they had to withdraw because DC insisted that the book be in color, and they simply couldn't afford that. One can't fault Mike Friedrich for not being prescient, but with different planning this excellent publisher might have lasted quite a bit longer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 16:41:23 GMT -5
Today marks the 18th anniversary of the passing of comic book legend Will Eisner.  To mark the occasion, if you have not read it, go read  for a spirited discussion about the craft of making comics and the future of the medium as these two saw it. -M |
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Post by Batflunkie on Jan 3, 2023 20:11:35 GMT -5
On sale 45 years ago today: This story was featured in a pocketbook reprint here in the UK: I liked pocketbooks. Also, as a kid, I had no concept of what a reprint was (I just presumed us Brits were writing/drawing our own DC adventures). Truth be told, my illusions were shattered when I first came across the term “first printed in…” So, as I said, I just presumed we were doing our own DC stuff here. I liked the various formats here, from hardback UK annuals to black and white reprints and pocketbooks. Loved how Ultraa was later incorporated into Morrison's Multiversity |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2023 20:54:53 GMT -5
By the same token, 90s indie Majestic flamed out quickly because their parent company was pirating their own NFL trading cards, to sell without paying royalties and got busted and lost their license. They crashed and took the company down before they could expand on an intriguing premise, in Legacy. Simon & Kirby's Mainline went under because their distributor wouldn't put out their comics, because of the 50s hysteria. First Comics went under because the owners spent so much cash trying to get Classics Illustrated off the ground and into book stores that they couldn't sustain regular operations, despite the revenues generated by their regular titles. Eclipse Comics was pretty much crippled by the flood of their warehouse and offices, since they depended on the sales of back issues to finance new publications. They limped along, borrowing from the future to finance the present. Had they not suffered the flood, they might have lasted through the 90s, with a better financial situation. Malibu disappeared because Marvel just wanted to keep them out of DC's hands (per Tom Mason and Chris Ulm), thereby significantly increasing their market share. They soon shut things down and gained little beyond some computer coloring systems. Fantagraphics nearly went under with the bankruptcy of their retail book distributor, Seven Hills, and had to appeal to the market place to get people to place orders directly with the company, to get enough cash to float them through the crisis. The Borders bankruptcy took down Tokyo Pop, in the US, because Borders had gone deep into manga and owed Tokyo Pop a ton of money.
I'd not heard that re: Malibu. So we might have had the Centaur heroes in the DCM? (I don't think they'd have contributed much, though Roy Thomas would have been happy.)
I'll also add Star*Reach in there, which started off with a bang but made some bad decisions, mainly producing poor-quality color books whose sales didn't justify the additional cost. They also started up a second anthology, Imagine, which ended up being the same as the original Star*Reach title, so they'd have been better off just bringing Star*Reach out more frequently.
I will always mourn the loss of the Englehart & Rogers original Batman graphic novel they were negotiating to produce. Plans were underway but then they had to withdraw because DC insisted that the book be in color, and they simply couldn't afford that. One can't fault Mike Friedrich for not being prescient, but with different planning this excellent publisher might have lasted quite a bit longer.
The launch of Image threw Malibu into the number 3 spot and the launch of Ultraverse kept them there. DC was interested in acquiring them, especially as it would greatly boost their market share and Ultraverse had enough publicity that they could exploit it better. They were close to a deal, when Marvel swooped in to get there first and Malibu needed to sell, fast, and did. It was never about the computer color systems, though that proved to be a bonus. |
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Post by MDG on Jan 4, 2023 15:10:19 GMT -5
I got my Granddaughter (just turned 8) A Little Lulu collection and she's enjoying it a lot. However, she doesn't get many of the references in the stories. High on the list: box tops, soap flakes, and castor oil.
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Post by tonebone on Jan 4, 2023 17:47:07 GMT -5
On sale 45 years ago today: This story was featured in a pocketbook reprint here in the UK: I liked pocketbooks. Also, as a kid, I had no concept of what a reprint was (I just presumed us Brits were writing/drawing our own DC adventures). Truth be told, my illusions were shattered when I first came across the term “first printed in…” So, as I said, I just presumed we were doing our own DC stuff here. I liked the various formats here, from hardback UK annuals to black and white reprints and pocketbooks. You've gotta love a villain with such a luxurious mane. |
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