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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 10, 2019 7:58:17 GMT -5
It was in Jack Kirby’s Forever people run. It was awful. Okay. That makes sense. I think I may have read that once eons ago. But I'm very very far from a fan of Kirby's Fourth World. I just thought of this- Maybe the poor sales prompted Kirbys bosses to force him into injecting some of the Dc Characters to " save" the series. Although, why Deadman ? |
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Post by MDG on Jun 10, 2019 9:15:32 GMT -5
Okay. That makes sense. I think I may have read that once eons ago. But I'm very very far from a fan of Kirby's Fourth World. I just thought of this- Maybe the poor sales prompted Kirbys bosses to force him into injecting some of the Dc Characters to " save" the series. Although, why Deadman ? Someone else will have to check the timeframe, but National Lampoon did at least one "Deadman" story. Maybe DC wanted to get Boston Brand back in print to reinforce their trademark.
The artist on the NatLamp Deadman....
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 10, 2019 9:33:31 GMT -5
I just thought of this- Maybe the poor sales prompted Kirbys bosses to force him into injecting some of the Dc Characters to " save" the series. Although, why Deadman ? Someone else will have to check the timeframe, but National Lampoon did at least one "Deadman" story. Maybe DC wanted to get Boston Brand back in print to reinforce their trademark.
The artist on the NatLamp Deadman....
Deadman's last appearance in Strange Adventures was early '69. A trademark period is 10 years. There was no compelling trademark reason to have him appear in Forever People, especially when Brave & Bold was a much more reasonable vehicle. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 10, 2019 22:00:26 GMT -5
Captain America gained Super strength in issue # 158 of his book. Why the PTB felt he needed extra strength beyond his Super soldier abilities is beyond me. Maybe the The Captain can shed some light on this. According to Steve Englehart's blog, this was dictated by Marvel management, as they were looking for something to goose sales by giving people something to talk about. In Vietnam-era America, there weren't a lot of folks lining up to read the adventures of a flag-waving super-patriot whose biggest nemesis was a Nazi, and the book had been considered for cancellation before Englehart came on it after years of neglect under Stan Lee's writing (and a year of Gary Friedrich and Gerry Conway in the interim). Englehart said he did it as he was instructed, but over time, he downplayed it and eventually stopped using it altogether. It lasted until issue #193, which coincided with the return of Jack Kirby to the title, although the super-strength was not officially declared gone until issue #218, under the writing of Don Glut, who decided to finally put a dagger in this unfortunate era. Low sales! right after one of the all time best Cap stories. Shame on the Marvel readers.  |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jun 11, 2019 12:13:31 GMT -5
The artist on the NatLamp Deadman....
Glad to see someone else remembers that version of Deadman! When I was writing Amalgam Universe fanfic, I merged him with the Lev Gleason Daredevil as the "Golden Age Deaddevil."
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 11, 2019 12:19:29 GMT -5
According to Steve Englehart's blog, this was dictated by Marvel management, as they were looking for something to goose sales by giving people something to talk about. In Vietnam-era America, there weren't a lot of folks lining up to read the adventures of a flag-waving super-patriot whose biggest nemesis was a Nazi, and the book had been considered for cancellation before Englehart came on it after years of neglect under Stan Lee's writing (and a year of Gary Friedrich and Gerry Conway in the interim). Englehart said he did it as he was instructed, but over time, he downplayed it and eventually stopped using it altogether. It lasted until issue #193, which coincided with the return of Jack Kirby to the title, although the super-strength was not officially declared gone until issue #218, under the writing of Don Glut, who decided to finally put a dagger in this unfortunate era. Low sales! right after one of the all time best Cap stories. Shame on the Marvel readers. The hook into Captain Americas popularity is that he is self made. He doesn't need super strength. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 11, 2019 14:53:11 GMT -5
Low sales! right after one of the all time best Cap stories. Shame on the Marvel readers. The hook into Captain Americas popularity is that he is self made. He doesn't need super strength. Self-made with an assist by the super-soldier serum. Better heroes through chemistry. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 11, 2019 14:54:58 GMT -5
He still had to be taught fighting, tactics and acrobatics. The serum doesn't give you leadership abilities.
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 11, 2019 19:23:45 GMT -5
In the TV show Family Guy, they killed off the dog. I was shocked but apparently they brought him back later on in the season. Maybe there was backlash ? One of my favorite 1st-season LOST IN SPACE episodes was "One Of Our Dogs Is Missing".
The dog was never seen again.
For many years, I thought the dog must have gotten killed fighting the werewolf at the end of the story.
Then I watched it in reruns and was shocked to find... the dog DIDN'T get killed.
It just VANISHED between the end of the story, and the start of the next one.
I guess it MUST have gotten sick and DIED between stories... as in, during the last commercial break. And they just didn't want to dwell on it. Poor thing.
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 11, 2019 19:28:47 GMT -5
Steve Englehart's solution, shown in dream form in FF #332, would have been to reveal that Franklin Richards had misguidedly mind-controlled Johnny and Alicia to make them fall in love so that the Thing could move on and regain his human form. I've read some things Steve Englehart said on his website, "explaining" things in his FF run, and why editorial interference messed with certain things.
I like Steve and much of his work and for a stretch he was my favorite comics writer in the 1970s. But what he said on that website, to me, is TOTAL B***S***.
His entire run of FF is some of the worst-written stuff from any writer during that entire era of Marvel. And the last year or so of it, it got EVEN WORSE. It was like he was throwing a long-term FIT, and decided to write for readers at a 6-year-old level.
I think it's that book. I mean, EVEN Roger Stern CRASHED AND BURNED when he tried writing it.
So did Doug Moench!
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 11, 2019 19:41:46 GMT -5
I remember during the Stern/Roger Marshals Dr. Strange run Clea broke up with long time partner Strange in order to move aside for another woman who loved him more. I don't know if they have ever gotten back together since then. As I recall... Roger Stern broke up Dr. Strange & Clea...
...decided that Peter Parker & Mary Jane Watson should only ever be "friends"...
...and wrote the CONCLUSION of Jim Shooter's deeply offensive, hateful story in which Hank Pym & Janet Van Dyne broke up.
I began to wonder what Stern's problem with "classic" romantic relationships was.
It's like he was trying to be "the new Roy Thomas" on that score.
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 11, 2019 19:50:21 GMT -5
Regarding DC's incessant reboots and the like... You know, the WB cartoons NEVER have these problems. When a new cartoon series starts, IT'S A NEW SERIES. Totally separate continuity from anything that's ever happened before. So they can start from scratch and build in whatever direction they want. I've sometimes wished the Post-Crisis New DCU had gone that route. instead of telling us Superman's new origin, and Batman's new origin, and then n both cases, JUMPING AHEAD 10 years and leaving you wondering, okay, WHAT actually happened during those 10 years-- and what didn't?
It's probably why I like the 1990s WB BATMAN series more than pretty much anything in the Post-Crisis BATMAN comic-books. (Although there were a few LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT stories that were damned good.)
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 13, 2019 7:51:49 GMT -5
Its not a classic example ( not 10 years old yet) but Dr.
Doom becoming a good guy looking to make amends was goofy. He returned to being the S bag that he used to be in the recent FF relaunch. So far no explanation why.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jun 13, 2019 11:46:40 GMT -5
I've read some things Steve Englehart said on his website, "explaining" things in his FF run, and why editorial interference messed with certain things. I like Steve and much of his work and for a stretch he was my favorite comics writer in the 1970s. But what he said on that website, to me, is TOTAL B***S***. His entire run of FF is some of the worst-written stuff from any writer during that entire era of Marvel. And the last year or so of it, it got EVEN WORSE. It was like he was throwing a long-term FIT, and decided to write for readers at a 6-year-old level.
My theory on Englehart: he was heartbroken when Coyote didn't make it big. He even tried to make it more mainstream, but sales still didn't improve. After that, he grew disgruntled with comics and his heart was never in anything he was writing.
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 13, 2019 14:14:13 GMT -5
My theory on Englehart: he was heartbroken when Coyote didn't make it big. He even tried to make it more mainstream, but sales still didn't improve. After that, he grew disgruntled with comics and his heart was never in anything he was writing.
Could be.
Enbglehart's a complicated case. At one point, apparently he felt he would have been happy if he could have just stayed at Marvel for the rest of his career.
Somewhere in there... he got on VAMPIRELLA. And in my view, did WAY better than the guy he replaced. But after only a couple of episodes, he vanished. According to him... he made the dumb mistake of mailing in a script without making a copy. Editor Bill DuBay said it got "lost" somehow (in the mail? in the office?) and so DuBay took over the series... for all of 2 issues, before getting others to finish up what turned out to be a 4-parter. Englehart even described the plot of the missing issue-- which the Enrich cover on that issue (a real classic) reflected... but which had nothing to do with the story inside that got published. He said he figured, well, he was busy enough elsewhere, not to be too bothered by it. But I wondered if DuBay hadn't deliberately 'lost" the script just so he could make some extra money. I still remember how editor Jack Miller deliberately screwed over Arnold Drake only 2 episodes into Drake's brand-new series... DEADMAN. Which Drake, the creator, never wrote again. (Well, he did... but DC wasn't interested in his later story.)
Then Gerry Conway became Marvel's EIC. And KICKED several successful teams off of books, just so HE could make money on the side writing them. He had so many scripts in such a short time, I suspect he must have been planning this for months and stockpiling stories so he could dump them on Marvel all at once. He didn't even bother writing the dialogue for many of them. Conway wanted THE AVENGERS... and caused Englehart so much grief, he not only quit the book-- but quit MARVEL-- and intended to quit COMICS entirely to become a novelist-- but first, he wanted to spend a year at DC and dump ALL his best ideas in one short time period. I've been in so many bad job situations over the years, I can't help but feel Englehart was really OVER-reacting. I mean, the way it worked out, if he'd held in there... Conway would have been gone in a few months.
In later interviews, he spelled all this out. In MUCH-LATER interviews... he changed his tune, apparently preferring not to be holding angry grudges against people who were involved in derailing his entire career.
The novel market WASN'T interested in a guy whose resume consisted of writing comics. Maddening.
When Englehart returned, he may have been the first guy in my lifetime to be getting steady work at 3 different comics publishers at the same time! But his output was erratic. Some average... some BRILLIANT... but some, the worst stuff I was reading from that period. What the hell???
A longtime comics-shop owner of mine passed on a story that both Englehart & Marshall Rogers had been taking LSD. For awhile, it "enhanced" their creativity. But beyong that point... if you keep taking the stuff... it's going to BURN OUT your brain. This is what he told me...
At Marvel, it struck me that the point where Englehart's writing took an ABRUPT nosedive... was right after someone, or several someones, in "editorial" TOLD him, in no uncertain terms, to GET-- RID-- of Mantis. They ordered him to get rid of her, and forbid his ever using her in any of his stories. After that, SILVER SURFER went from "inspired" to "average", and at the same point, FANTASTIC FOUR suddenly became gibberish aimed at 6-year-olds.
I have seen occasional good stuff from him since. DARK DETECTIVE was brilliant... but when it was coming out, "everyone" seemed unaware that it was NOT part of then-current continuity. Englehart was actually the ONLY one at DC right then who was writing brand-new stories set on "EARTH-1". I could never figure why, with DC's growing number of endless "Elseworlds" stories, they refused to let anyone write stories about "Earth-1".
Word came down that DC decided that the 2nd half of DARK DETECTIVE would "NEVER" be published. After Marshall Rogers passed away, Paul Gulacy offered to illustrate the other 6 issues. DC turned him down flat.
There's a LOT of weird S*** that goes on behind-the-scenes.
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