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Post by tarkintino on May 5, 2019 16:31:59 GMT -5
Endgame was just a wrap-up, but not very satisfying. If one can get beyond the sheer stupidity of Thanos' entire, death-centric plan, one had to sit through the most convoluted time-travel plot in recent film history, which was ironic, since the screenwriters went out of their way to have Banner write off the time travel theories of numerous, famous time travel or sci-fi movies and TV shows.
This was not so much a coherent story as much as it was one scene randomly connected to another, lacking the feeling of high stakes (since in a technical sense, the world post-snap was no longer in danger from Thanos), all to get to yet another series of obviously CG battles. The MCU's one jewel in the crown: Captain America: The Winter Soldier was a film that worked beautifully because characters had a personal investment in the plot, one that posed a believable threat that placed a real sense of dread in the audience (Hydra using a programmed weapons platform to commit mass murder around the world), including the Bucky part of the plot.
That's not to be found here, and the all-too easy way characters jump from one time to another, actually doing what they were warned not to (disturb or change anything) was largely used for laughs, with none of the travelers too concerned with deliberate changes they made. This is most glaring in the following scenes:
- Captain America saying "Heil Hydra" to Sitwell, when in the original timeline, Hydra had not approached or converted Cap to Hydra hence the reason he was considered a threat to be killed by Project Insight as introduced in The Winter Soldier.
- The convenience of present day Nebula's information accessed by past life Nebula (with no logical explanation for that, since her mind is not a linked device transferring information).
- Telegraphing Stark's fate by having Loki disappearing with the Tesseract in 2102, forcing Stark and Rogers to go to 1970, where he can bond with his father.
- More plot convenience of having two people travel to obtain the soul stone; if only Hawkeye or Black Widow travelled there alone, the "rule" of sacrificing someone the seeker loves means what, since the object of a seeker's love could not be themselves, so did that mean the Red Skull would simply refuse access to the stone?
Other issues:
- After the experience of knowing how to build A.I. like Ultron, why didn't Stark use one of his leftover automatons that responds to commands to perform the final snap? Yes, I know Robert Downey, Jr's contract reached its end with this film, but in-story, if he ever believed he would obtain the stones again (and after seeing what they did to the Hulk), why not have an automaton draw the stones to it and perform the snap? The risk of radiation damage would be of no concern at that point.
- Hulk claims that unlike sci-fi movies, they could not go back and change history by doing as Rhodes suggests and kill Thanos as a baby, yet Steve Rogers freely alters history by telling his earlier self that Bucky is alive (something he never had even a hint of in the original timeline until years beyond the events of 2012's Avengers), and of course staying in the past to be with Peggy Carter, when the Agent Carter TV series says she married and had children...and did not mention Steve Rogers. To that end, old Peggy (in The Winter Soldier) spoke as if Steve had been gone for decades.
The plot and wrap-up was not strong at all, namely because everyone knew a "hard" conclusion had to be reached for the actors no longer contracted to Disney. There was distinct lack of an organic cause and effect throughout, and now that most of the original cast have closed the book on their characters, the future of the MCU (with the remaining characters) does no seem nearly as fascinating / promising.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on May 5, 2019 18:38:53 GMT -5
I'm seeing a lot of folks disappointed in the direction they took the Hulk in. Personally, I can see why to a degree. He was essentially nerfed power wise, and essentially became Beast from X-Men. Overall it didn't bother me too much, but I do miss the original Hulk. Would have been nice for him to get a second crack at Thanos in the final fight.
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Post by hondobrode on May 5, 2019 21:23:53 GMT -5
Girlfriend and I saw it today.
It was very, very good.
Some slippery logic, but no glaring huge plot holes I couldn't live with.
Coordinating all the different characters here was massive and they did a very good job.
It was definitely worthwhile. I had avoided spoilers going on but knew Clint would be adopting the Ronin identity.
I knew something would happen with Cap and Iron Man obviously with the actors' contractual situations.
Was surprised about Black Widow.
Yes I immediately caught Starlin in the therapy group. Cool.
I've never cared much for the actual Ant-Man character, but I like that they've taken him to the quantum level, basically extending his power set comparable to DC's Atom, a favorite of mine.
Not sure how I felt about Professor Hulk. I liked that it made the screen, but I like the traditional loose cannon better.
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Post by Randle-El on May 6, 2019 0:12:59 GMT -5
I managed to see it a few nights ago. Overall I thought it was great and a fantastic ending to the Infinity Saga. I honestly could be happy if they decided to call it a day after his. I have a hard time seeing how they will top something like this. Then again, I said the same thing after the first Avengers movie, so what do I know? That said, I do think that I appreciated this movie more on an emotional level than an intellectual one. Let's be honest, when time travel is involved, it's best not to think too hard about it. I have to say... I think they made a pretty bold choice in {Spoiler: Click to show} having folks return from the snap five years after the fact. If I recall the original story correctly, they basically hit the reset button so that everything went back to the way it was before. If they are sticking with this, then I'm interested in seeing if and how they handle it in the rest of the MCU, because this is not something you can explain away with a wave of your hands or an line of dialogue. The Marvel Netflix shows being cancelled right before Endgame is quite convenient, but there are still at least three other shows that will have to deal with it at some point.
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Post by The Captain on May 6, 2019 8:05:57 GMT -5
I actually prefered the Professor Hulk inclusion over Force of Nature Hulk version. Why?
We've already seen FoN Hulk do his thing in multiple films. He trashed Chitauri soldiers and Loki in Avengers, and he destroyed huge sections of Johannesburg as well as countless robots in Avengers: Age of Ultron. In Thor: Ragnarok, we got to see him and the God of Thunder throw down, then watched Thanos hand him his ass is Infinity War.
For me, just having him run rampant again in Endgame would have been more of the same. The Big Three got their moment against Thanos, and I thought it important to let Captain Marvel have her encounter with Thanos to establish her as the new "heavy hitter" in the MCU, so where does that leave FoN Hulk?
Introducing the Professor Hulk persona made more sense storywise, as well as giving Mark Ruffalo more to do with his role.
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Post by badwolf on May 6, 2019 9:57:25 GMT -5
I have a question: Why was Gamora mad at Quill when he came back, and why did Nebula say "it was either him or a tree"? (I get that the tree was Groot, but why the either/or situation?)
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Post by brutalis on May 6, 2019 10:50:51 GMT -5
I have a question: Why was Gamora mad at Quill when he came back, and why did Nebula say "it was either him or a tree"? (I get that the tree was Groot, but why the either/or situation?) This is "Gamora from past" who is still more or less anti-hero/almost villainous that has no connection to current Peter Quill who connected with and who loves the Gamora that Thanos killed to gain the Soul Stone. So Quill being all emotional/lovey-dovey/caring means NOTHING to this Gamora from the past who has never met or learned from Quill and in turn becoming a better person. Of course Quill doesn't know at the time that this Gamora is not "his" Gamora returned to life. And either Starlord or Groot means they were the best of choices. Is Drax or Rocket a choice?
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Post by Randle-El on May 6, 2019 11:46:59 GMT -5
I managed to see it a few nights ago. Overall I thought it was great and a fantastic ending to the Infinity Saga. I honestly could be happy if they decided to call it a day after his. I have a hard time seeing how they will top something like this. Then again, I said the same thing after the first Avengers movie, so what do I know? That said, I do think that I appreciated this movie more on an emotional level than an intellectual one. Let's be honest, when time travel is involved, it's best not to think too hard about it. I have to say... I think they made a pretty bold choice in {Spoiler: Click to show} having folks return from the snap five years after the fact. If I recall the original story correctly, they basically hit the reset button so that everything went back to the way it was before. If they are sticking with this, then I'm interested in seeing if and how they handle it in the rest of the MCU, because this is not something you can explain away with a wave of your hands or an line of dialogue. The Marvel Netflix shows being cancelled right before Endgame is quite convenient, but there are still at least three other shows that will have to deal with it at some point. I found an answer to my own question. {Spoiler: Click to show} Looks like the MCU TV shows will basically ignore the Snap. www.thewrap.com/agents-of-shield-season-6-avengers-endgame-marvel/At this point, the only logical in-story explanation for this is that these shows all take place in alternate universe(s). But that of course is basically admitting that it's no longer a shared universe.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2019 15:30:51 GMT -5
I have a question: Why was Gamora mad at Quill when he came back, and why did Nebula say "it was either him or a tree"? (I get that the tree was Groot, but why the either/or situation?)
why was Gamora even there? that's my biggest continuity issue with it.
the "2nd snap" resolved by wiping out Thanos and his allies.
we're supposed to believe that Tony thought for a second and said. . ."oh wait. . except for Gamora"
EVERYONE else who time-traveled with Thanos was wiped out.
sloppy as hell writing
was frustrated by lack of Warlock in a freaking Infinity Stones story (as well as the lack of *any* of the stones, other than the power stone to punch. . .otherwise why were they even there??). . . but yeah, the above was my biggest issue with the film. tho I *DID* enjoy it greatly, and recommend seeing it.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on May 6, 2019 17:30:19 GMT -5
I have a question: Why was Gamora mad at Quill when he came back, and why did Nebula say "it was either him or a tree"? (I get that the tree was Groot, but why the either/or situation?)
why was Gamora even there? that's my biggest continuity issue with it.
the "2nd snap" resolved by wiping out Thanos and his allies.
we're supposed to believe that Tony thought for a second and said. . ."oh wait. . except for Gamora"
EVERYONE else who time-traveled with Thanos was wiped out.
sloppy as hell writing
was frustrated by lack of Warlock in a freaking Infinity Stones story (as well as the lack of *any* of the stones, other than the power stone to punch. . .otherwise why were they even there??). . . but yeah, the above was my biggest issue with the film. tho I *DID* enjoy it greatly, and recommend seeing it. 2014 Gamora fought against Thanos and his minions. All her life she was never on board with Thanos and his "plans". Just forced to do his bidding. She turned and joined the heroes of 2023 after she believed new Nebula's story, seizing the opportunity she had probably been looking for the entire time. That's why she wasn't snapped away.
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Post by Phil Maurice on May 6, 2019 17:40:44 GMT -5
{Spoiler}2014 Gamora fought against Thanos and his minions. All her life she was never on board with Thanos and his "plans". Just forced to do his bidding. She turned and joined the heroes of 2023 after she believed new Nebula's story, seizing the opportunity she had probably been looking for the entire time. That's why she wasn't snapped away. {Spoiler: Click to show}I think Cap returning the stones erased the 2014 Gamora, thus her being absent from the Guardians' ship and why Quill is seen searching for her at the movie's end.
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Post by String on May 6, 2019 17:48:18 GMT -5
Maybe I misjudged all the previous hype but I was disappointed by Carol here or rather the lack of her. All this build-up from Fury calling her to her big movie, I got the sense she was supposed to be some important cog in how this event is resolved yet she's hardly in the film. Granted, she got two cool scenes but nowhere near what I was expecting. The timey-wimey stuff is convoluted if you think it through long enough. I just thought it was a nifty way to reference/tie-in the other major films, that if you have been watching these films all along, here's a cool payoff. My biggest question about it: {Spoiler: Click to show} Is Loki now alive since he vanished with the Tesseract in 2012? How would the team fix that? Overall, I enjoyed it (time travel headaches aside). I even teared up a couple of times (notably when mentor and student reunite and the last scenes) While I was put off it initially, the more I think about it, the more I love Thorbowski. Thor Abides! I haven't experienced this in a movie theater for quite some time but when the credits started rolling, the majority of the audience clapped and cheered (the theater was about half full when I saw it). Gotta agree with them, logic flaws aside, this was a HUGE accomplishment. Bravo, well done indeed.
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Post by badwolf on May 6, 2019 18:50:00 GMT -5
Maybe I misjudged all the previous hype but I was disappointed by Carol here or rather the lack of her. All this build-up from Fury calling her to her big movie, I got the sense she was supposed to be some important cog in how this event is resolved yet she's hardly in the film. Granted, she got two cool scenes but nowhere near what I was expecting. She was there to save Stark since they couldn't think of another way to write him out of that corner.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on May 6, 2019 21:12:26 GMT -5
This guy has a lot of cool videos talking about the MCU. Nice theories on Captain America and his potential fate at the end of the film.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2019 9:43:48 GMT -5
I saw the film in London last Friday and I enjoyed it to the extent and it was pleasantly paced and had some difficulty following it. I need to see it again later this week when I'm not rushed and I missed some of the film because the people in London are a bit rowdy and keep getting out of their seats getting refreshments and bothering my enjoyment of the movie.
My girlfriend (She is a huge Avengers Fan) and I find it a bit confusing with the time travel and but it was done just right and I missed some of that and that why I want to see it again later on ... Too much to see and all that.
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