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Post by badwolf on May 7, 2019 19:23:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I found it increasingly difficult to remember everything to understand all the details in the recent films, and am glad they are (maybe?) wiping the slate clean, at least for a bit.
Honestly I wish they'd go back to standalone films. The earliest ones have always been my favorites.
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Post by rberman on May 7, 2019 23:02:11 GMT -5
Finally saw it! Managed to avoid spoilers too. Kudos to the world for figuring out this piece of etiquette. I thought it was great, a grand finale to the whole series. Which poses a challenge going forward, since for the first time since the first few movies there's no clear forward plot, no wheels already set in motion to make us ask, "Where is that going?" But I understand the need to put a full stop on continuity and do a soft reboot every once in a while so that the next generation of paying customers can have a clear place to jump on board without feeling like they've missed a lot. Once more Marvel shows up DC films, which is too bad for DC. Maybe they will figure out how to make movies that are serious and heroic without being gloomy?
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2019 23:14:26 GMT -5
Finally saw it! Managed to avoid spoilers too. Kudos to the world for figuring out this piece of etiquette. I thought it was great, a grand finale to the whole series. Which poses a challenge going forward, since for the first time since the first few movies there's no clear forward plot, no wheels already set in motion to make us ask, "Where is that going?" But I understand the need to put a full stop on continuity and do a soft reboot every once in a while so that the next generation of paying customers can have a clear place to jump on board without feeling like they've missed a lot. Once more Marvel shows up DC films, which is too bad for DC. Maybe they will figure out how to make movies that are serious and heroic without being gloomy? It looks like the new Spidey film will be an epilogue of sorts for Endgame and will be setting up a lot of the questions/directions moving forward into the next phase including what the folks who were gone will be dealing with when they come back, what SHIELD and Fury are up to, etc. and seems to play on the idea of a multiverse having been created by the events of Endgame (all based on the trailer which dropped yesterday). So I don't think that there will be a lack of questions and plot impetus moving it forward for very long (only until July when Spidey drops) and there will be a lot of wheels in motion after that. -M
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on May 8, 2019 13:09:52 GMT -5
I liked the movie overall, I just hate time travel. I feel that no one ever explains it properly and that they just do whatever they want and leave things unmentioned or unexplained on purpose. If people ask questions, we are left "guessing" or theorizing on our own. Or, you just ignore the questions and say "hey, its time travel".
Some things that were lost on me (feel free to help clear me up here anyone!)
1. The snap the Hulk does. When everyone returns and Ant Man or whoever looks outside, it looks nice out. Does this mean the fact that the world was kinda in shambles has been undone? Or is everyone just back but they still exist in a world that had gone on without them? When Clint gets a call from his wife, is she back at their home which, in current time, would likely be in shambles because Clint has been globe trotting and killing people this whole time. Or is it like she never left? I guess the basic question is, do the returning people come to the current world or do the current people return to a pre snap era?
2. Black Widow's death. My impression from Infinity War was that Thanos had to give up something he loved greatly to get the soul stone. Hence, he sacrificed his own daughter. It was a powerful and sad moment. Flash forward to Endgame...how is Black Widow sacrificing herself the same? Was it literally anyone had to be sacrificed? If so, why couldnt Thanos grab any lackey and toss them in. Ditto for Barton and Black Widow. If it had to be someone you loved the most, I don't believe there was this kind of love between Widow and Barton. It kinda made the scene from Infinity War seem less of a moment and for me, Widow dying lacked any real emotional connection.
3. Loki. What is he doing in some other timeline now that he has escaped thanks to Iron Man and Ant Man's failure?
4. Cap at the end. Did he put the stones back and go back to pre-serum Cap? Seems like post-serum Cap because he seems jacked when he dances at the end. If so, why did he age? Thought the serum he took slowed the process. Maybe slowing is the key word and, after living a life and then, essentially living it again only with his love, he now actually ages. It all just seemed confusing. Plus, it has been so long since watching him actually react and talk with Sam that the moment where he hands over the shield lacked a lot of feeling for me. The two never interacted in the movie much, nor did they in Infinity War so this moment just lacked great emotion for me. It should have been an iconic movie moment but instead was just like "here, you take it now, enjoy".
5. Thanos destroyed the stones. Doing this would have, according to the Ancient One, ruined the Universe. Don't understand how they avoided this.
6. Gamora gone. Obviously this seems likely to actually be revisited as Quill is searching his computer for info on her. We did not see her get snapped into dust, and we also did not get confirmation is she just was sent back to her timeline. Either way it is confusing. Or did she just leave and is living in the current world, but as her past self, with no knowledge or understanding of her current love with Quill and affiliation with the GOTG.
7. Chunky Thor. Ever since Ragnarok, I have hated Thor. OG Thor was fine. And they did fail at high fantasy with Dark World but I still think that is more the route you have to go in with Thor. It was like they tried to make him goofy and because general public loved it, now its his thing. I dislike it a lot.
These little things added up for me. Still a top 10 Marvel film IMO but not because of the plot. Mind you, if anyone here can shed more light on some of my nitpickings, I am all ears.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on May 8, 2019 13:15:27 GMT -5
I will add in some of my fav moments
-Scene with Ant Man and Hulk when we see Professor Hulk for the first time. Great. -Stark meeting his father. Also a good scene. -Everyone returning behind a beaten up Cap...chills -Cap wielding Mjolnir...also chills -The woman power moment...epic - Spider-Man...Holland just nails it for me - Good humour...some people had said it was too funny. I barely laughed out loud and felt the moments where I did silently chuckle were perfectly placed.
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Post by brutalis on May 8, 2019 13:34:55 GMT -5
I liked the movie overall, I just hate time travel. I feel that no one ever explains it properly and that they just do whatever they want and leave things unmentioned or unexplained on purpose. If people ask questions, we are left "guessing" or theorizing on our own. Or, you just ignore the questions and say "hey, its time travel". Some things that were lost on me (feel free to help clear me up here anyone!) 1. The snap the Hulk does. When everyone returns and Ant Man or whoever looks outside, it looks nice out. Does this mean the fact that the world was kinda in shambles has been undone? Or is everyone just back but they still exist in a world that had gone on without them? When Clint gets a call from his wife, is she back at their home which, in current time, would likely be in shambles because Clint has been globe trotting and killing people this whole time. Or is it like she never left? I guess the basic question is, do the returning people come to the current world or do the current people return to a pre snap era? 2. Black Widow's death. My impression from Infinity War was that Thanos had to give up something he loved greatly to get the soul stone. Hence, he sacrificed his own daughter. It was a powerful and sad moment. Flash forward to Endgame...how is Black Widow sacrificing herself the same? Was it literally anyone had to be sacrificed? If so, why couldnt Thanos grab any lackey and toss them in. Ditto for Barton and Black Widow. If it had to be someone you loved the most, I don't believe there was this kind of love between Widow and Barton. It kinda made the scene from Infinity War seem less of a moment and for me, Widow dying lacked any real emotional connection. 3. Loki. What is he doing in some other timeline now that he has escaped thanks to Iron Man and Ant Man's failure? 4. Cap at the end. Did he put the stones back and go back to pre-serum Cap? Seems like post-serum Cap because he seems jacked when he dances at the end. If so, why did he age? Thought the serum he took slowed the process. Maybe slowing is the key word and, after living a life and then, essentially living it again only with his love, he now actually ages. It all just seemed confusing. Plus, it has been so long since watching him actually react and talk with Sam that the moment where he hands over the shield lacked a lot of feeling for me. The two never interacted in the movie much, nor did they in Infinity War so this moment just lacked great emotion for me. It should have been an iconic movie moment but instead was just like "here, you take it now, enjoy". 5. Thanos destroyed the stones. Doing this would have, according to the Ancient One, ruined the Universe. Don't understand how they avoided this. 6. Gamora gone. Obviously this seems likely to actually be revisited as Quill is searching his computer for info on her. We did not see her get snapped into dust, and we also did not get confirmation is she just was sent back to her timeline. Either way it is confusing. Or did she just leave and is living in the current world, but as her past self, with no knowledge or understanding of her current love with Quill and affiliation with the GOTG. 7. Chunky Thor. Ever since Ragnarok, I have hated Thor. OG Thor was fine. And they did fail at high fantasy with Dark World but I still think that is more the route you have to go in with Thor. It was like they tried to make him goofy and because general public loved it, now its his thing. I dislike it a lot. These little things added up for me. Still a top 10 Marvel film IMO but not because of the plot. Mind you, if anyone here can shed more light on some of my nitpickings, I am all ears. Will try to answer as best I understand: 1. Hulk snap brought everyone snapped out into current time: hence 5 years later. Since the movie showed the debris and piles of trash/etc showing things as green and bright was a visual shortcut to show the Hulk snap worked. Since call was on Hawkeye's cell, likely people were snapped back to the place they were snapped from. 2. Widow's sacrifice was her own self, her own happiness, her own place of belonging with finding a "family" with the Avengers. She sacrificed herself for all the others who were snapped out in hopes of bringing them back. 3. Figure the Loki series coming from Disney will tell that story. 4. Cap would have returned all the stones 1st except and used the Pym Particles to access his past via the Quantum Realm. This means he is still super-soldier serum cap which would have helped his aging and surviving through into the end of the movie in current time. As to Sam/Cap that is just one of the problems of movies: can't show ALL the character bits and such that a comic book can. You have to read between the lines. The ONLY person to completely stand by Cap has been Sam from the time they 1st met through Cap knows Bucky is still working out all of his own issues so Cap wouldn't want to place the burden of being Captain America onto Bucky. 5. Would a comic book provide the answer to the stones destruction or use that to publish another mini-series and more revenue? No, that is a plot point to further explore in future Marvel movies and should hopefully be an ongoing issue/discussion/fix. 6. Hulk snap only returned those snapped out. Gamora traveled into the future (our current) alongside Thanos. She snuck away during the big battle and confusion. Will be part of GOTG 3 plot no doubt. 7. Thor played for laughs is because it went over so well in Ragnarok. A fine line to walk between Thor being funny or silly or dumb. The overweight drunken depressed Thor is OK after all he has lost through Ragnarok and Infinity War, but too many "bunny" jokes and such makes him look stupid, which he can't be shown as or it detracts from the warrior/hero he truly is. Leave the jokes for Spidey and Ant-Man. Of course these are all my own thoughts from viewing Endgame twice now. Hope they help and take from them what you will...
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on May 8, 2019 13:53:25 GMT -5
^ That does, especially your Widow explanation. I guess the fact she spent 5 years leading the Avengers was kinda lost due to the fact they had to rush that bit. She obviously felt that she found a home there and sacrificing her life was meaningful.
I still don't get the Hulk snap. She calls him from their derelict phones at his house? Guess she could have had her cell with her when she left and just came back with it....I dunno, its all a but much still and why I despise time travel. The idea of having people back who were gone and people aging. Just seems like a logistical mess they are likely to explain by just avoiding.
New thought...could a Black Widow movie (which was supposedly in development) take place during the 5 years we "skipped" after the snap? Natasha on her own mission navigating a distraught world, battling a villain like Taskmaster? Seems cooler than doing a prequel or a story from another universe now that the multiverse is supposedly a thing.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 8, 2019 13:58:54 GMT -5
New thought...could a Black Widow movie (which was supposedly in development) take place during the 5 years we "skipped" after the snap? Natasha on her own mission navigating a distraught world, battling a villain like Taskmaster? Seems cooler than doing a prequel or a story from another universe now that the multiverse is supposedly a thing. Possible. Possibly a prequel. Possibly she was released when the Soul Stone was returned. Lots of options.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 14:10:33 GMT -5
^ That does, especially your Widow explanation. I guess the fact she spent 5 years leading the Avengers was kinda lost due to the fact they had to rush that bit. She obviously felt that she found a home there and sacrificing her life was meaningful. I still don't get the Hulk snap. She calls him from their derelict phones at his house? Guess she could have had her cell with her when she left and just came back with it....I dunno, its all a but much still and why I despise time travel. The idea of having people back who were gone and people aging. Just seems like a logistical mess they are likely to explain by just avoiding. New thought...could a Black Widow movie (which was supposedly in development) take place during the 5 years we "skipped" after the snap? Natasha on her own mission navigating a distraught world, battling a villain like Taskmaster? Seems cooler than doing a prequel or a story from another universe now that the multiverse is supposedly a thing. The new Spidey movie in July is going to address what is going on with the returnees. Peter returning to school to with classmates who also were snapped and came back but also some classmates who stayed beyond and have aged 5 years, graduated and moved on is one of the issues being addressed in the movie. The Spidey film is the epilogue of sorts for Endgame, which is why Feige calls it, and not Endgame, the end of Phase 3, and a lot of the repercussions of events in Endgame will start to be addressed in Far From Home. -M
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Post by rberman on May 8, 2019 14:11:24 GMT -5
I liked the movie overall, I just hate time travel. I feel that no one ever explains it properly and that they just do whatever they want and leave things unmentioned or unexplained on purpose. If people ask questions, we are left "guessing" or theorizing on our own. Or, you just ignore the questions and say "hey, its time travel". Some things that were lost on me (feel free to help clear me up here anyone!) 1. The snap the Hulk does. When everyone returns and Ant Man or whoever looks outside, it looks nice out. Does this mean the fact that the world was kinda in shambles has been undone? Or is everyone just back but they still exist in a world that had gone on without them? When Clint gets a call from his wife, is she back at their home which, in current time, would likely be in shambles because Clint has been globe trotting and killing people this whole time. Or is it like she never left? I guess the basic question is, do the returning people come to the current world or do the current people return to a pre snap era? The people were returned, but the world was not undone. So Tony's daughter still exists, the memorial stones are still in San Francisco, etc. Here's the thing. The Black Plague was terrible, killing something like a third of Europe. However, a silver lining was that it concentrated wealth among survivors in the lower classes, allowing a middle class of merchants and artisans to emerge from the rubble. So consider what would happen if half of the world population disappeared overnight. The other half will have consolidated their wealth and moved on to rebuild society. It wouldn't result in abandoned cities, though it might lead to political breakdown and re-alignments, depending on which government and military figures survived and which didn't. Now suddenly all those people are back, but all their assets have been reallocated. Someone else is living in their house, driving their car, married to their wife, raising their kids, etc. The infrastructure, especially food production and distribution, is not ready to handle a suddenly doubled human population. Talk about a recipe for mass chaos! Do you think we'll see this in Spider-Man: Far from Home? I doubt it! It's whatever the Soul Stone says. This is all basically magic, an occult human sacrifice (or alien sacrifice, in Gamora's case). If the Soul Stone is satisfied with Clint's grief over Natasha dying and surrendering her soul, then that's good enough. They did set up Clint and Natasha all along as a loving couple in a sense, perhaps a platonic sense rather than an adulterous one. They are at least comrades in arms who have that esprit de corps between them. Good thing Clint with Natasha rather than Rocket or someone else who doesn't really care about her! Whatever the writers of Thor 4 come up with. Apparently Chris Hemsworth has signed to do five more Marvel films, which leaves room for Loki to do as much or little as the creative teams wish. I hope he comes back. I never liked him in older comic books, but the movies have made me a fan, as have his subsequent appearances in Ms. Marvel and Squirrel Girl as more of a brat than a mustache twirler. I didn't get the serum slowed his aging. The bigger problem is that Sam Wilson may have the shield, but he's no super soldier. Yet... She said that taking them to the future would cause corruption of the timestream. Apparently destroying them is a different matter. But given that they were returned after being used, that means they're still out there, right? Where are they? Several of the items from which they were taken (Vision's forehead/Loki's sceptre; the Cosmic Cube) were destroyed in the process. I guess that leaves room for future stories to answer the question. It appears that 2014 Gamora (from before she met Quill) is now adventuring with the GotG in 2019, with no knowledge of the intervening events. I am sure Thor will hit the gym between now and his next appearance, presumably in GotG Vol 3. He will be goofy there since GotG is a comedy series. Sorry!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 8, 2019 14:34:10 GMT -5
Whatever the writers of Thor 4 come up with. Apparently Chris Hemsworth has signed to do five more Marvel films, which leaves room for Loki to do as much or little as the creative teams wish. I hope he comes back. I never liked him in older comic books, but the movies have made me a fan, as have his subsequent appearances in Ms. Marvel and Squirrel Girl as more of a brat than a mustache twirler. Loki is currently set for a Disney Streaming series. So who knows if he'll come back in the movies.
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Post by rberman on May 8, 2019 14:59:10 GMT -5
Whatever the writers of Thor 4 come up with. Apparently Chris Hemsworth has signed to do five more Marvel films, which leaves room for Loki to do as much or little as the creative teams wish. I hope he comes back. I never liked him in older comic books, but the movies have made me a fan, as have his subsequent appearances in Ms. Marvel and Squirrel Girl as more of a brat than a mustache twirler. Loki is currently set for a Disney Streaming series. So who knows if he'll come back in the movies. Probably not then. I assume they will have Tom Hiddleston appear in a few scenes in the first episode and then he will use his illusion powers to assume the form of a cheaper actor thereafter. Sort of like Jeremy Renner is going to pass the baton in the Hawkeye series.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 8, 2019 15:04:40 GMT -5
Loki is currently set for a Disney Streaming series. So who knows if he'll come back in the movies. Probably not then. I assume they will have Tom Hiddleston appear in a few scenes in the first episode and then he will use his illusion powers to assume the form of a cheaper actor thereafter. Sort of like Jeremy Renner is going to pass the baton in the Hawkeye series. He's on board at least for the planned six episodes. Hiddleston still does a bit of television. The Night Manager from 2016 was pretty brilliant.
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Post by Randle-El on May 8, 2019 15:39:08 GMT -5
The people were returned, but the world was not undone. So Tony's daughter still exists, the memorial stones are still in San Francisco, etc. Here's the thing. The Black Plague was terrible, killing something like a third of Europe. However, a silver lining was that it concentrated wealth among survivors in the lower classes, allowing a middle class of merchants and artisans to emerge from the rubble. So consider what would happen if half of the world population disappeared overnight. The other half will have consolidated their wealth and moved on to rebuild society. It wouldn't result in abandoned cities, though it might lead to political breakdown and re-alignments, depending on which government and military figures survived and which didn't. Now suddenly all those people are back, but all their assets have been reallocated. Someone else is living in their house, driving their car, married to their wife, raising their kids, etc. The infrastructure, especially food production and distribution, is not ready to handle a suddenly doubled human population. Talk about a recipe for mass chaos! Do you think we'll see this in Spider-Man: Far from Home? Exactly. The impact of 50% of the world's population disappearing and then reappearing five years later is bound to have a completely destabilizing effect on the entire planet even beyond what Endgame showed. The fact that Peter Parker's high school class is taking a vacation to Europe right after the events of Endgame seems to trivialize what happened. Whether their relationship has a suppressed romantic side or not seems to up to interpretation. I always understood their relationship as complex with a possible romantic undercurrent. They are both attractive, roughly of the same age, in the same profession, and working together in pressure situations where they have to rely on each other. I feel like that's a recipe for sexual tension. On the other hand, the movies seem to portray Clint as someone who wants a life outside of superhero adventures. Perhaps either or both of them have entertained the thought of getting together, but they ultimately knew that a long-term future was off the table because it didn't align with Clint's desires. I think his love for his family is genuine, and he would never betray that, but he also has a true love for Natasha as well. Besides, I seem to recall the Red Skull saying that those who seek the Soul Stone must sacrifice what they love, not what they love most. As for Cap's aging -- it was never made clear in the film how much the super solider serum affected aging, although it is reasonable to assume that he would not age the same as normal people. That said, he was also frozen for 70 years. I'm sure that was responsible for at least some, if not all, of his youthful appearance. Also, bear in mind that the old Cap at the Endgame is close to 200 years old. Minus the 70 years he was frozen and presumably not aging, that still gives him a physical age of around 130. I'd say he looks pretty good for 130 years, and that may be due to the super soldier serum.
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Post by tarkintino on May 11, 2019 2:20:23 GMT -5
I liked the movie overall, I just hate time travel. I feel that no one ever explains it properly and that they just do whatever they want and leave things unmentioned or unexplained on purpose. If people ask questions, we are left "guessing" or theorizing on our own. Or, you just ignore the questions and say "hey, its time travel". Agreed, and the Russo brothers trying to explain it after the fact only proves they (and the other screenwriters) failed to explain something no one can realistically understand in the first place. Having Hulk mock other movie time travel ideas was just to avoid that which the Russos ended up having to do since the film's release: attempt to counter criticisms from audiences who have their own ideas on how time travel works. More convoluted screenwriting. The snap was only stated to bring people back, but the physical world was still 5 year later and those areas abandoned / in a state of disrepair should remain that way at the moment the snap happened, including Hawkeye's home, even as his wife and children reappeared. This is one of the numerous problems with the movie; the Soul Stone demands the seeker to sacrifice something they love in order to obtain it; Black Widow committing suicide did not represent that, as Hawkeye--being the one left to obtain the stone--did not get it because he sacrificed Black Widow, as seen with Thanos & Gamora, so the film simply used plot convenience for an empty stab at drama contradicting its own rules. Psychologically, Black Widow always intended to commit suicide (once learning how the stone is accessed), so even as Hawkeye was losing his grip on her hand, that was not an act the Soul Stone (or its rules) would perceive as he--the seeker--sacrificing anything. I'm guessing more plot convenience to explain the Loki TV show. Well, that would not make sense if that's what the movie implied, since the serum will work the same (slowing the aging process) no matter what the user does (or does not do) with his life. That's due to movie being bloated in an attempt to be "epic" and tie up the fates of characters tied to actors with expired contracts. For all of the build up of Sam as Steve's new best friend, you are correct in noting how little development the relationship received (post Civil War). And before someone says that was not the focus of the movies, we had more of the Wanda/Vison relationship in Infinity War, and neither were as established as basic characters as Steve and Sam. Some will argue that the Vision/Wanda relationship was key to the Infinity War plot, but its outcome (Thanos obtaining the Mind stone) was going to happen whether Wanda's interaction happened or not, as we see when he reverses time to get it. On an emotional standpoint, there's not much there as the Vision/Wanda "romance" seemed forced and lacked the years of development the comic book counterparts had to make it even remotely believable, thus the Endgame scene of Wanda screaming (at Thanos) about his taking "everything" away from her rang hollow. Plot convivence again. Make some grand, threatening statement about a McGuffin, but never have it live up to the hype. The consequences of destroying the stones is never see or fel--not even in a throwaway shot of some other planet. Its just "the threat of" and nothing more. Same here. But, we live in a time where the visual and idea of a strong Thor was considered "boring" to some, when that original personality was a necessary contrast to the other Avengers and Loki. Turning him into a fat alcoholic made his presence a joke, and for all of the stated importance of the stones plot--having fat Thor as alleged comic relief was distracting. So, now he inexplicably gives up being the ruler of his relocated people to become a comedy sidekick. I cannot recall another 21st century superhero movie or series that downgraded and destroyed a character to this degree. This was anything other than a satisfying ending for the original characters. A lot of noise and "this is important!" dialogue, but it never felt that way.
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