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Post by tarkintino on Apr 6, 2019 17:01:24 GMT -5
Surely somebody cares. The director. Phoenix. Someone must care. Me...I con't care at all. Joker has been horribly over-exposed for a good forty years. Same...got sick of the character many years ago. Its like the Green Goblin in Spider-Man movies; two of the now three Spider-Man movie series have used the Green Goblin, with both focusing on plots taken from a single storyline from the comics (you know which one). Film studios cannot talk themselves out of thinking "legacy" characters (villains) are what everyone desires, and that's not the case. I really do not need to see another live action Green Goblin, just as the idea of this Joker movie leaves me with the same level of disinterest.
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Apr 6, 2019 17:16:28 GMT -5
Same...got sick of the character many years ago. Its like the Green Goblin in Spider-Man movies; two of the now three Spider-Man movie series have used the Green Goblin, with both focusing on plots taken from a single storyline from the comics (you know which one). Film studios cannot talk themselves out of thinking "legacy" characters (villains) are what everyone desires, and that's not the case. I really do not need to see another live action Green Goblin, just as the idea of this Joker movie leaves me with the same level of disinterest. Couldn't agree more. If I hadn't already seen some very good to great depictions of this character in movies and TV, this Phoenix version would be of interest. But. I'm. So. Sick. Of. This. Character. Batman too, for that matter. It doesn't help that the first Burton film linked the two characters so that it seems mediocre screenwriters feel the need to turn to the hoary "two sides of the same coin" trope. One of the better things about the MCU is their willingness to mix things up re: antagonists. (To your point re: the Green Goblin, I greatly appreciated the turn to the Vulture in Spider-Man: Homecoming.)
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Post by aquagoat on Apr 7, 2019 10:26:53 GMT -5
Actually it was Alan Moore (and others) who positioned Batman and the Joker as very similar characters.
And there is a general rule in writing that the closer your hero is to your villain, the better. It's used everywhere, not just 'mediocre screenwriters'.
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Apr 7, 2019 12:13:44 GMT -5
Actually it was Alan Moore (and others) who positioned Batman and the Joker as very similar characters. And there is a general rule in writing that the closer your hero is to your villain, the better. It's used everywhere, not just 'mediocre screenwriters'. Burton's Batman became the generally accepted template for a wider understanding of these two characters in film, which is what's under discussion here. Their association as men who have taken on a bizarre, frightening appearance and haunt the streets of Gotham at night is there from the very first Joker story in Batman no. 1. Perhaps it's a matter of taste as to whether making that association more obvious is good writing, but I believe Batman/Joker stories are richer and more complex when the association remains implicit rather than made explicit. The very direct linking of these two characters made in the Burton film (i.e., that the Joker killed Bruce Wayne's parents) is far more spot-on and direct than the notion (not set-in-stone "rule") that the protagonist and antagonist should be similar in some important way (which has been done time and time again in literature and film, often very well - I never claimed to do so was in and of itself a mediocre writing strategy). And to cleave to that in a reductive way has been the strategy of some mediocre writers ever since. Note that not only does The Dark Knight not do this but, to screenwriters Jonathan and Christopher Nolan's credit, the film provides no backstory for the Joker. The question "Do you want to know how I got these scars?" is never definitively answered and, in this, the Joker remains a more mysterious, incomprehensible and thus threatening figure of chaos. Imagine if Noah Cross had in some way been responsible for J.J. Gittes first tragic foray into Chinatown that is the heart of Jack Nicholson's character in Roman Polanski's Chinatown. That's a silly notion that takes away from Cross's symbolic value as an unstoppable force of capitalism and Gittes as the Everyman victim of modern alienation, per the tropes of film noir. Similarly, to reduce Batman/Joker stories to an explicit conflict between two men diminishes the underlying social themes of the Batman mythos. He is a character after all who shares many of the same pulp roots as the noir detective. Young Bruce doesn't declare that he will bring the killer of his parents to justice but that he will wage war on all criminals. Having his parents' killer remain an anonymous agent of modern, urban crime is more interesting to me than that he is the protagonist's primary antagonist. But, again, to each his own.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,866
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Post by shaxper on Apr 7, 2019 12:52:48 GMT -5
What are they going to do with the character that hasn't already been done?
And if they do take the character somewhere new, will it fit?
And if they somehow manage to take this over-used character in an exciting new direction that utterly works, he's still a homeless villain in an uncertain universe with no clearly established Batman to go against him.
The current Cinematic DC Universe is a wasteland, and any story that doesn't stand alone is somewhat doomed to fail as a result. A villain's story can't really stand alone. He's only a villain in contrast to a hero.
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Post by rberman on Apr 7, 2019 12:58:29 GMT -5
The current Cinematic DC Universe is a wasteland, and any story that doesn't stand alone is somewhat doomed to fail as a result. A villain's story can't really stand alone. He's only a villain in contrast to a hero. The usual tactic is to pit him against someone more destructive so that he looks good by comparison, like in "Suicide Squad." People cheer for underdogs instinctively.
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Apr 7, 2019 13:09:13 GMT -5
What are they going to do with the character that hasn't already been done? And if they do take the character somewhere new, will it fit? And if they somehow manage to take this over-used character in an exciting new direction that utterly works, he's still a homeless villain in an uncertain universe with no clearly established Batman to go against him. The current Cinematic DC Universe is a wasteland, and any story that doesn't stand alone is somewhat doomed to fail as a result. A villain's story can't really stand alone. He's only a villain in contrast to a hero. Perhaps in this film his "antagonist" is the rest of the world, ala Taxi Driver (wherein Travis Bickle sees all of society as sick) or The King of Comedy (wherein Rupert Pupkin's obsession with fame transforms Jerry Langford from an idol to impediment to career success). (Unsurprisingly, given his initial involvement, there's more than a little Scorsese vibe to the trailer.) A protagonist (certainly not a "hero" but also not a "villain" per se) such as this can certainly stand alone if the film is more of a character study, as the aforementioned films are.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 7, 2019 17:54:20 GMT -5
The trailer makes him look like a powerless victim.
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Post by robsuperfriend63 on Apr 26, 2019 15:42:15 GMT -5
My 2 cents. I'm tired of Batman related stuff that doesn't have Batman in it.
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Post by Duragizer on Apr 27, 2019 1:13:22 GMT -5
My 2 cents. I'm tired of Batman related stuff that doesn't have Batman in it. Those Nolan films, amirite.
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Post by Warmonger on Aug 30, 2019 13:18:18 GMT -5
Looks pretty good to me and I think Phoenix will be awesome in the role. My only worry is Todd Phillips as the director. As far as I know he’s strictly been a comedy director with zero experience with dark, gritty dramas.
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Post by Randle-El on Aug 30, 2019 20:27:10 GMT -5
Looks pretty good to me and I think Phoenix will be awesome in the role. My only worry is Todd Phillips as the director. As far as I know he’s strictly been a comedy director with zero experience with dark, gritty dramas. I was trying to figure out why the trailer was giving me these familiar vibes even though I haven't seen it before. Then I realized that my reaction to it was exactly the same reaction I had when I saw the trailer for Venom. The whole thing feels like they took a script that could have been a more generic genre film (sci-fi horror for Venom, psychological thriller for Joker) and shoehorned comic book elements into it in order to cash in on the Marvel or DC connections. I feel like I would actually have more interest if they took all the DC comics elements out of it and just made it a generic thriller about an unhinged comedian. As with Venom, the appeal of Joker is how he stands in contrast to the hero. It's a shame, because it actually looks like a decently made film, but for me they are ruining it by trying to make it a film about a Batman villain without Batman.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 31, 2019 1:40:32 GMT -5
looks pretty good to me and I think Phoenix will be awesome in the role. My only worry is Todd Phillips as the director. As far as I know he’s strictly been a comedy director with zero experience with dark, gritty dramas. That totally worked for me. That was my favorite trailer for a superhero thing in a while. I don't think the quality of the trailer has any bearing on the quality of the movie, of course, but I liked the trailer. And you need a comedy director for the Joker, right?
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Aug 31, 2019 4:05:04 GMT -5
Looks pretty good to me and I think Phoenix will be awesome in the role. My only worry is Todd Phillips as the director. As far as I know he’s strictly been a comedy director with zero experience with dark, gritty dramas. I was trying to figure out why the trailer was giving me these familiar vibes even though I haven't seen it before. Then I realized that my reaction to it was exactly the same reaction I had when I saw the trailer for Venom. The whole thing feels like they took a script that could have been a more generic genre film (sci-fi horror for Venom, psychological thriller for Joker) and shoehorned comic book elements into it in order to cash in on the Marvel or DC connections. I feel like I would actually have more interest if they took all the DC comics elements out of it and just made it a generic thriller about an unhinged comedian. As with Venom, the appeal of Joker is how he stands in contrast to the hero. It's a shame, because it actually looks like a decently made film, but for me they are ruining it by trying to make it a film about a Batman villain without Batman. I feel like people would just view it as an unofficial Joker origin film still.
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 31, 2019 8:19:46 GMT -5
Quick answer to the original question: Someone may, but it ain't me.
Cei-U! I'm Jokered out!
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