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Post by rberman on May 13, 2019 14:59:36 GMT -5
I can understand that, especially in response to a post in which I compared Tom King's Barda to King Kirby's Barda. But as I think about it more, I'm less interested in fidelity to previous versions than in whether a given version of a character is interesting in its own right, and well used within the story. King's Scott Free is King himself grappling with family vs war, and Barda is his own wife, and Orion is every terrible commanding officer in the Green Zone in Baghdad, and Lightray is every unthinkingly obedient subordinate officer. It just happens that King's wife parallels Kirby's wife, so there's some similarity in the portrayals, but ultimately King's characters are who they are so that King can tell the story he wants to tell. King wasn't trying to use Kirby's Barda, per se. The obvious objection is that if Tom King didn't want to use the characters of Orion etc., then he shouldn't be using characters named Orion etc. Why doesn't he make up his own roster, as he did in A Once Crowded Sky? But that's what happens with the major publishers. They have character trademarks that need to be maintained, and they hire creators to tell (hopefully) interesting stories using those trademarks, and the resulting variances in the characters are a secondary or even tertiary concern. And I am OK with that. MCU Thor is not 616 Thor, but each is entertaining in his own context. Yeah, it's standard procedure in corporate factory-comics, but that doesn't mean I have to like it as an individual reader. Also, as it happens, I don't find King's writing interesting in itself, so whatever it is that his fans get out of his work is all lost on me. King's indifference to past continuity in favor of the local story (one of several traits he shares with Grant Morrison) has certainly been polarizing. I have no personal attachment to DC's past continuity; indeed, DC itself shows little sentimentality on the matter with its endless reboots. But I can understand at least some of what people don't like about King, even though I find that his take refreshing. Thanos was right. The only way to have a happy new universe is to shed the people who loved the old universe.
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Post by berkley on May 13, 2019 19:20:41 GMT -5
Yeah, people are so used to it in comics they don't see anything strange about, let alone wrong with it. But to me, if someone's trying to sell me a New Gods series I'm going to have certain minimum expectations, just the same as if someone is trying to sell me a Sherlock Holmes story or whatever the case may be. If they give me a story where Holmes is a dumb guy who doesn't have a clue, the odds are very low that I'll like it, though I wouldn't say they were at absolute zero.
Emotional attachment or personal history certainly comes into it: for example, I've never read, I dunno, say Little Women and probably never will. If someone makes a Little Women movie or writes a sequel, I'm not going to have much to say about it one way or the other. Even if I did happen to see it or read it, I won't know enough about the original to understand any changes they've made.
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Post by Duragizer on May 13, 2019 19:49:55 GMT -5
In the second segment, Lois shows surprising intuitive ability, directing Superman toward a hidden group of Intergang thugs. He appreciates her help and privately ponders his own sexual needs, but he refrains from kissing her. Note that he calls Lois “another human.” Does he consider himself human? If he doesn't, someone's writing him wrong.
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Post by rberman on May 14, 2019 6:36:16 GMT -5
The New Gods #3 “Death Is the Black Racer!” (June 1971)The Story: An exciting in media res opening shows Lightray fleeing the Black Racer. He uses a crystalline asteroid to change his light-beams into “a fiery holocaust” which Black Racer easily dodges. I don’t think that’s how light and fire interact. The word “holocaust” shows up in Fourth World books a lot. Just as Black Racer is about to touch Lightray, presumably killing him, Metron shows up and uses a Boom Tube to send Black Racer to Metropolis on Earth. Black Racer spies a gunfight between two black members of Inter-Gang. Sugar-Baby guns down a black man in a suit. The scene is witnessed by Willie Walker, a mute, paralyzed Viet Nam vet. Black Racer prevents Sugar Baby from murdering Walker, then heals Walker’s paralysis and allows him to take up the mantle of the Black Racer. On Earth, Orion spends several pages changing into civilian clothes. He cryptically comments that his appearance as a New Genesis inhabitant is “not the true face of Orion” but rather has been somehow fashioned by Mother Box. Orion and one of his human friends, police inspector David Lincoln, track some Inter-Gang thugs to their hideout and interrupts their plan to attack a “communications building” with an Apokolips bomb. The plot gets confusing at this point. Sugar-Man flees with the bomb. Black Racer intercepts him and sends Sugar-Man’s truck sailing up toward space: But then Orion says that Mother Box is responsible for sending the Apokolips bomb over a thousand miles into space so that when it explodes, it won’t damage all the communications equipment in North America. This is just handled in dialogue and doesn’t fit with what we saw Black Racer doing. This issue appears to have been hopelessly tampered with late in the production cycle to insert the story of Black Racer, so that the narrative is completely jumbled. My Two Cents: Well, this issue is just a big fat mess due to editorial tampering. Jack Kirby had a detective story to tell about Orion and Detective Lincoln playing gumshoe and tracking down an Intergang bomb. But Mark Evanier reports what happened instead: The Black Racer is an obvious take-off on the Silver Surfer, spoofing Kirby’s days on Fantastic Four. His alter ego as a comatose man is an amping up of the power fantasy behind Billy Batson and Don Blake. As a figure of death, he ought to be faceless and swathed in black but instead is black in the African sense and wears garish yellow and red. And he gets way too much of this issue, resulting in an incoherent climax in which both Orion and Black Racer never meet and independently claim full credit for ending the bomb threat. I feel like there’s a political statement here. Metron doesn’t dispose of Black Racer; he just makes him someone else’s problem to save his friend. Black Racer himself is handled in a confusing manner. His initial combat with Lightray sets us up to see him as an agent of Apokolips. But then he becomes more of a Spectre-like angel of vengeance who attacks criminals. Are we then to understand that Lightray deserved to die, like Sugar-Baby? We haven't seen any evidence of his guilt. The cover makes the odd choice of asking readers whether the Black Racer is going to exit the comic book and attack them. Once again the cover background is a B&W photo, as in many of these New Gods titles.
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 14, 2019 11:58:04 GMT -5
I never took Black Racer to be an agent of Apocalypse; rather he's the Fourth World's god of death. He'd be hanging out with Hela and Thanatos if he wasn't spending all his spare time moping in bed.
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Post by rberman on May 14, 2019 12:20:11 GMT -5
I never took Black Racer to be an agent of Apocalypse; rather he's the Fourth World's god of death. He'd be hanging out with Hela and Thanatos if he wasn't spending all his spare time moping in bed. Which is why it's odd that he intervenes to save the communications equipment of Earth from Intergang's attempt to bomb it, by flinging the bomb-laden van into outer space. This just shows how his appearance in this story was never intended by Kirby. But having given Black Racer the first half of this issue, Kirby obviously felt obliged to include him in the solution to the bomb plot that occupies the second half.
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Post by rberman on May 15, 2019 7:06:46 GMT -5
Jimmy Olsen #139 “The Guardian Fights Again!!!” (July 1971)The Story: The Golden Guardian clone passes his medical tests and is released from The Project. Jimmy, Guardian, and Superman return to Metropolis, passing the abandoned Habitat on the way. This takes seven pages. The Newboy Legion remain at The Project, where one member, Gabby, has some virus that concerns the doctors. They are all confined to the infirmary but make their escape down an underground river with the help of one of the Project’s finger-sized soldiers cloned from Scrappy the Newsboy. Rivers flow downward, and supposedly they’re already deep beneath Metropolis, but I have a feeling this river will defy gravity and flow upward, eventually dumping them out on the surface world. Back at Galaxy Broadcasting, Morgan Edge has an undignified visit from Goody Rickels, a lower level employee who looks just like comedian Don Rickles. Edge plots how to send his annoying underling on a suicide assignment, checking out a booby-trapped UFO placed in a nearby park. Clark Kent, Guardian and Jimmy Olsen take the Whiz Wagon to investigate the UFO, and it’s Kent, not Rickels, who falls victim to the trap. The UFO teleports him away to another dimension. Several pages are given over to a fight between our remaining heroes and some goons who appear out of nowhere. Rickels gets the lion’s share of the attention. Eventually they are captured and impregnated with a chemical which will cause them to burst into flame in 24 hours. Muahaha! They are dumped out on the street to await their inevitable demise! Will this be the end? My Two Cents: Here again we see the ill effects of Kirby being pressured to introduce a new character every issue. I don’t know how Goody Rickels played with readers back in 1971 when Don Rickles was a well-known figure with an insult-based brand of comedy, but there’s not much appeal in him fifty years later, or at least not in Kirby’s attempt to replicate him. For most comic books, that would be a silly expectation, but Kirby had higher aspirations; he was trying to write a story that would be read for years to come, and dated references like this work against his ambition. This issue also has the first use of “Fourth World” on the cover. I'll have more to say next time about how Don Rickles ended up in this story, and what the real guy thought of it. Note: The following issue of Jimmy Olsen, #140, was not by Kirby. Instead, it reprinted “Superman in Kandor” from Superman #158, “The Caped Crimefighters of Kandor!” from Jimmy Olsen #69, and “The World of Doomed Olsens!” from Jimmy Olsen #72, which saw Jimmy inducted into the Legion of Super-Heroes. I guess Kirby needed a breather.
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 15, 2019 11:33:52 GMT -5
I included Goody Rickels as a member in my Substitute League of America fanfic.
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Post by profh0011 on May 15, 2019 18:25:23 GMT -5
A couple of comments from my earlier Fourth World thread (on another board)...... HOLY COW! What a CLIFF-HANGER!!! It says here... “SPINE-CHILLING! BLOOD-FREEZING! HEART-STOPPING! Only those adjectives can describe the INCREDIBLE roaring climax in the NEXT ISSUE! For MANY lives hang in the balance—when a strange question is answered!! WILL THE REAL DON RICKLES PANIC??” Now let me explain this—sort of. As I said, DC used to publish a very-popular JERRY LEWIS comic. Back when, there was a Saturday morning TV cartoon named—I’m not kidding—“ WILL THE REAL JERRY LEWIS PLEASE SIT DOWN?” (It ran from 1970-72—you can look it up! Honest!!) So I figure—and I have never run across even a single reference to this before I put two and two together myself—that Jack’s title for the next episode was a take-off on that. Makes PERFECT sense to me! What DIDN’T make sense was the way—according to Mark Evanier—Jack’s 7-parter somehow got truncated to 6, and ended last issue instead of in this one. Because—see—NEXT issue is a REPRINT ANNUAL. So, instead of a break between stories, Jack started the 2nd story... then, readers had to wait TWO issues before they could read Part 2! That’s NOT FAIR!
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Post by rberman on May 15, 2019 18:39:17 GMT -5
What DIDN’T make sense was the way—according to Mark Evanier—Jack’s 7-parter somehow got truncated to 6, and ended last issue instead of in this one. Because—see—NEXT issue is a REPRINT ANNUAL. So, instead of a break between stories, Jack started the 2nd story... then, readers had to wait TWO issues before they could read Part 2! That’s NOT FAIR! I wonder what would have been in the seventh issue. The story of the Hairies and the Habitat was already quite decompressed, with lots of large panels and splash pages. I would have liked to see some actual interaction between the two tribes of teens, but neither seemed inclined. Instead, the story mainly serves to reboot the Newsboy Legion and Guardian as clones of their Golden Age selves. And also to introduce Mokkari, Simyan, and the Evil Factory which has access to Guardian's and Superman's genetic samples yet chooses to make clones of Jimmy Olsen instead. I guess they did make tiny clones of the JLA in that Lois Lane story, but why not giant clones? Think of a ten foot Flash whizzing around at gale force!
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Post by rberman on May 16, 2019 7:03:12 GMT -5
Mister Miracle #3 “The Paranoid Pill!” (August 1971)The Story: A thought-being known as Dr. Bedlam incarnates temporarily in a blank of a humanoid form provided by Darkseid. He challenges Scott Free, whom he knows well from the past, to try to escape a trap he is preparing at Chandler Towers. Scott is willing to face Bedlam. But first he uses the Mother Box to give Oberon a psychedelic encounter with extradimensional forces, just because he can. The plot order of Bedlam's challenge and Oberon's experience should have been reversed. Otherwise Scott looks callous for not helping Bedlam's victims immediately. Scott flies to meet Doctor Bedlam on the top floor of Chandler Tower. His challenge will be to exit from the lobby once Bedlam has turned the entire populace of the building into temporary lunatics. He does pretty well for a while, but eventually the nutjobs manhandle Scott into a trunk, secure it with ropes and chains, and dump it down the center of a stairwell. Is this the end? My Two Cents: If Anti-Life is about the dangers of demagogue-driven groupthink, this issue is the opposite. The danger comes from every man doing what he wants, but only guided by passion rather than intellect. This issue also shows the danger of Scott Free remaining on Earth, if the forces of Apokolips are willing to put humans in the line of fire just to harass him.
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Post by rberman on May 16, 2019 19:01:54 GMT -5
Forever People #4 “The Kingdom of the Damned” (August 1971)The Story: The scene opens on the Happyland amusement park, where bright lights and whirling machines drown out the plight of a tortured subset of the attendees; the rest enjoy their time, oblivious to the dark underbelly of an entertainment-saturated culture. Religion has been dethroned as the opiate of the masses. Powerful stuff! It’s the work of Darkseid’s lieutenant Desaad, and ol’ stoneface has come to congratulate him. While Desaad experiments with the captured Mother Box, Darkseid wanders the park and is mistaken for a carnie by some. As always, Darkseid stands with his hands clasped behind his back. He doesn’t need to be ready to fight. Who would dare, and who could hope to win? The Forever People are prisoner here somewhere; they spend several pages in a futile escape attempt. They are separated, and their distresses are incorporated into various theme park attractions. The Motherbox teleports away and is picked up by this issue’s new character, "Sonny Sumo, the Banzai Express." Is this where "Buckaroo Banzai and the Tokyo Express" got their name? My Two Cents: This was a pretty decompressed issue plotwise, giving multiple pages each to the plights of the captive Forever people, but it’s so effective an indictment of the anaesthetizing nature of mass media that we ought to give it a high grade anyway. Grant Morrison used an amusement park similarly in his Seaguy series, doubtless consciously following Kirby. “Desaad” is a straightforward reference to the Marquis de Sade. The stage and film musical “Marat/Sade” was a counterculture pop phenomenon in the late 1960s, casting the Marquis as a hero of free thinking rather than a sexual deviant.
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Post by brutalis on May 17, 2019 7:34:31 GMT -5
This is where you need an editor or someone looking over your shoulder. I find it hard to hearing Darkseid say Grandpa, let alone talking with one. That is such an "american" euphemism and would Darkseid lower himself to recognition of or even responding to a lowly old human? More likely to just Omega beam the old geezer and keep on walking...
Kirby can have amazing ideas and concepts but in his "rush" to deliver sometimes things pass by which might otherwise require more thought over it.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 17, 2019 12:04:17 GMT -5
This is where you need an editor or someone looking over your shoulder. I find it hard to hearing Darkseid say Grandpa, let alone talking with one. That is such an "american" euphemism and would Darkseid lower himself to recognition of or even responding to a lowly old human? More likely to just Omega beam the old geezer and keep on walking... Kirby can have amazing ideas and concepts but in his "rush" to deliver sometimes things pass by which might otherwise require more thought over it. Nah, disagree. Kirby's Darkseid is actually quite consistent. His response to the world around him is mostly "Quiet amusement." He's not in a hurry, he has all the time in the world, and he's fascinated by people on a sociological level. He'll interact with you just to see how you'll respond. He's a cat playing with a mouse.
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Post by berkley on May 17, 2019 14:28:51 GMT -5
This is where you need an editor or someone looking over your shoulder. I find it hard to hearing Darkseid say Grandpa, let alone talking with one. That is such an "american" euphemism and would Darkseid lower himself to recognition of or even responding to a lowly old human? More likely to just Omega beam the old geezer and keep on walking... Kirby can have amazing ideas and concepts but in his "rush" to deliver sometimes things pass by which might otherwise require more thought over it. Nah, disagree. Kirby's Darkseid is actually quite consistent. His response to the world around him is mostly "Quiet amusement." He's not in a hurry, he has all the time in the world, and he's fascinated by people on a sociological level. He'll interact with you just to see how you'll respond. He's a cat playing with a mouse. Yeah, and I think it ties into the kind of insidious nature of his evil, echoing the little girl's manner of addressing her grandfather. Later writers tend to have him doing things like call people by their last name: "ooh, how rude! Didn't even say Mister! Evil!" The contrast between the casual language and scary appearance is really effective.
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