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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 18, 2019 17:55:54 GMT -5
Yeah, Darkseid is the chilling-est supervillain.
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Post by rberman on May 19, 2019 22:25:01 GMT -5
New Gods #4 “O’Ryan Gang and the Deep Six” (August 1971)The Story: In a four page prelude, Metron takes young Esak (Isaac?) to a caveman planet. He promises that the inhabitants will get more civilized over time. By implication, maybe Earth will improve as well. As with other freestanding Metron sequences at the beginning of issues in New Gods, this scene mainly serves to remind us that Highfather Izaya and Metron exist. The cops drag the dead body of Seagrin the New God out of the water. His mother box contacts The Source to take his corpse home in a fiery conflagration. Black Racer flies through the scene as well, though it’s unclear what contribution he has to make since Seagrin is already dead, and Mother Box has administered last rites. Mainly his presence is just to keep the character in play. Equally silly is a would-be ominous splash page of Darkseid watching the scene from a nearby alley. He should mainly be shown as working through lieutenants, not skulking around the corner of a brownstone. And just as silly is Orion’s proposal that he and his white collar team pose as the criminal “O’Ryan Gang” in order to track a local Intergang division back to its headquarters. Detective Lincoln is the only one who’s really qualified for this sort of work: Next Claudia gasses the Intergang guards with a tricked out car. Next, elderly insurance salesman Lanza poses as a tech buyer to get Intergang to reveal the location of their “jammer” so that Orion can swoop in and destroy it. Next, in the start of an unrelated adventure, Orion ventures undersea to confront Seagrin’s killers, a group of Apokolips monsters known as Deep Six. How will that go? Tune in next time! This issue also contains an apologetic open letter from Carmine Infantino explaining the price hike from 15 cents to 25 cents. A Lightray pin-up fills out the pages. My Two Cents: It’s not a bad idea for Orion to have some human sidekicks who can ask questions to prompt him for exposition. But the execution is hamfisted. Apparently this motley crew has decided to give up on their regular lives and hang around Dave Lincoln’s apartment, even though we saw in issue #2 that Darkseid or his goons are liable to appear there. Their expository dialogue comes across more as Golden Age than even Silver, let alone Bronze. Without the multiple splash pages and the unrelated material about Metron and Black Racer, this would have been a pretty short issue. At least the art is cool. Darkseid’s power is described as “cyclopean,” which was a favorite word of H.P. Lovecraft to describe something very large. (Here is the shot I mentioned with Darkseid personally hanging out at the docks, peeking around the corner of a building to spy without being noticed.)
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Post by rberman on May 20, 2019 11:23:24 GMT -5
Jimmy Olsen #141 “Will the Real Don Rickles Panic?!?” (September 1971)The Story: The "real Don Rickles" visits Morgan Edge’s office at Galaxy Broadcasting and flirts with his secretary: The Guardian goes into full Captain America mode and chases down the Intergang truck from which he had been tossed only moments before. Will they have the antidote to the incendiary time bomb ticking with him? Can he beat it out of them? Jimmy Olsen and Goody Rickels barge into Morgan Edge’s office, where they confuse Don Rickles and Morgan. Worse, Goody is set to explode way ahead of schedule, jeopardizing everyone in the room. Fortunately, The Guardian shows up with the antidote, and Jimmy and Goody return to normal. When we last left Clark Kent, he was adrift in a multi-page photo collage on a path to Apokolips, and some para-demons from there are flying to intercept. Lightray happens by. Does Superman reveal himself and check out Apokolips? Nope. He lets Lightray send him back to Earth in a Boom Tube which opens in Morgan Edge’s office just as Don Rickles is leaving. A one page Kirby pin-up of himself introduces the back-up feature, a Golden Age Guardian/Newsboy Legion origin story taken from Star Spangled Comics #7, including a reprint of the cover. My Two Cents: Thus ends the un-funny Don Rickles two parter. I would rather that space had been devoted to Superman doing something interesting on Apokolips. Isn’t he even curious? The modern Newsboys did not appear in this issue, Guardian gets all the action, the two versions of Don Rickles get all the dialogue, and Jimmy Olsen has had precious little to do; Kirby has reduced him to a supporting role, with no bigger a part here than he would have in an Olsen appearance in Action Comics.
But it’s not Kirby’s fault; once again Carmine Infantino was interfering with Kirby’s story in an attempt to goose sales. It didn’t work, and Rickles was displeased with the final product. Mark Evanier recalled how it happened:
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Post by codystarbuck on May 20, 2019 11:40:24 GMT -5
New Gods #4 “O’Ryan Gang and the Deep Six” (August 1971)The Story: In a four page prelude, Metron takes young Esak (Isaac?) to a caveman planet. He promises that the inhabitants will get more civilized over time. By implication, maybe Earth will improve as well. As with other freestanding Metron sequences at the beginning of issues in New Gods, this scene mainly serves to remind us that Highfather Izaya and Metron exist. The cops drag the dead body of Seagrin the New God out of the water. His mother box contacts The Source to take his corpse home in a fiery conflagration. Black Racer flies through the scene as well, though it’s unclear what contribution he has to make since Seagrin is already dead, and Mother Box has administered last rites. Mainly his presence is just to keep the character in play. Equally silly is a would-be ominous splash page of Darkseid watching the scene from a nearby alley. He should mainly be shown as working through lieutenants, not skulking around the corner of a brownstone. And just as silly is Orion’s proposal that he and his white collar team pose as the criminal “O’Ryan Gang” in order to track a local Intergang division back to its headquarters. Detective Lincoln is the only one who’s really qualified for this sort of work: Next Claudia gasses the Intergang guards with a tricked out car. Next, elderly insurance salesman Lanza poses as a tech buyer to get Intergang to reveal the location of their “jammer” so that Orion can swoop in and destroy it. Next, in the start of an unrelated adventure, Orion ventures undersea to confront Seagrin’s killers, a group of Apokolips monsters known as Deep Six. How will that go? Tune in next time! This issue also contains an apologetic open letter from Carmine Infantino explaining the price hike from 15 cents to 25 cents. A Lightray pin-up fills out the pages. My Two Cents: It’s not a bad idea for Orion to have some human sidekicks who can ask questions to prompt him for exposition. But the execution is hamfisted. Apparently this motley crew has decided to give up on their regular lives and hang around Dave Lincoln’s apartment, even though we saw in issue #2 that Darkseid or his goons are liable to appear there. Their expository dialogue comes across more as Golden Age than even Silver, let alone Bronze. Without the multiple splash pages and the unrelated material about Metron and Black Racer, this would have been a pretty short issue. At least the art is cool. Darkseid’s power is described as “cyclopean,” which was a favorite word of H.P. Lovecraft to describe something very large. (Here is the shot I mentioned with Darkseid personally hanging out at the docks, peeking around the corner of a building to spy without being noticed.) I think you are missing the point to Darkseid's appearance. It is not about Darkseid watching events from close quarters, it is about the truth of war, as Jack Kirby found it, in WW2. So much talk is made of valor and glory and grand crusades, when in the end, there is only butchery. Kirby was haunted by it and Darkseid gives voice to it. It is one of his most powerful and profound pieces of writing, in the saga. The 4th World is not writing, in the conventional sense. It is more of an epic poem, crossed with a philosophical tract, delivered in a sci-fi adventure story. To me, this is what people miss when they say Kirby couldn't write. Kirby could write and brilliantly so. He just didn't write like Stan or others within the field. He was more abstract, more poetic, in a crude way. His meanings often come far later than first reading.
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Post by rberman on May 20, 2019 11:56:37 GMT -5
I'm fine with Darkseid's soliloquy about the butchery of war. Delivered on Apokolips to one of his henchmen who was reporting about the events on the dock, it would have made perfect sense without lowering Darkseid to the status of peeping tom.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 20, 2019 12:23:26 GMT -5
Equally silly is a would-be ominous splash page of Darkseid watching the scene from a nearby alley. He should mainly be shown as working through lieutenants, not skulking around the corner of a brownstone. Honestly both these criticisms feel to me like "Darkseid would be better if he acted like generic supervillain # 73.412." Again, I disagree. Darkseid's hanging out because he has all the time in the world. He believes in the inexorability of his victory. If something catches his interest, he'll come watch. Chillin' in the alley is 100% in character, all through the series. 'Surprisingly casual' is what differentiates Darkseid from all the Mongul-come-latelies. And later writers got this about half the time. I'm reading the Tom King Mister Miracle series your reviewed and he just completely misses this. But didn't the J. M. Dematties Mr. Miracle series* have a scene where Scott and Barda come home and Darkseid is sitting in their big green armchair? That's Darkseid! * Or maybe this was John Bynre?
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 20, 2019 12:30:14 GMT -5
I think you are missing the point to Darkseid's appearance. It is not about Darkseid watching events from close quarters, it is about the truth of war, as Jack Kirby found it, in WW2. So much talk is made of valor and glory and grand crusades, when in the end, there is only butchery. Kirby was haunted by it and Darkseid gives voice to it. It is one of his most powerful and profound pieces of writing, in the saga. The 4th World is not writing, in the conventional sense. It is more of an epic poem, crossed with a philosophical tract, delivered in a sci-fi adventure story. To me, this is what people miss when they say Kirby couldn't write. Kirby could write and brilliantly so. He just didn't write like Stan or others within the field. He was more abstract, more poetic, in a crude way. His meanings often come far later than first reading. Or you could make the same argument based on symbolism and the poetic structure of the worldbuilding. That might be a better option that "Darkseid is the chilling-est." (BUT HE IS!!!)
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Post by Duragizer on May 20, 2019 14:40:19 GMT -5
But didn't the J. M. Dematties Mr. Miracle series* have a scene where Scott and Barda come home and Darkseid is sitting in their big green armchair? That's Darkseid! * Or maybe this was John Bynre? That was Byrne. And he was shown enjoying a snifter of wine on top of it. It was the one good moment in an otherwise completely atrocious storyline.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 20, 2019 15:03:36 GMT -5
But didn't the J. M. Dematties Mr. Miracle series* have a scene where Scott and Barda come home and Darkseid is sitting in their big green armchair? That's Darkseid! * Or maybe this was John Bynre? That was Byrne. And he was shown enjoying a snifter of wine on top of it. It was the one good moment in an otherwise completely atrocious storyline. Oh, waiwaiwaiwaiwait. Was that the Barda/porn one? (That's why I remember it so well. It's from when Action Comics was a team-up book for a little while, and I looove team-up books. Not that team-up book in specific, but...) I think that was # 593 or 594.
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Post by Duragizer on May 20, 2019 15:11:18 GMT -5
That was Byrne. And he was shown enjoying a snifter of wine on top of it. It was the one good moment in an otherwise completely atrocious storyline. Oh, waiwaiwaiwaiwait. Was that the Barda/porn one? (That's why I remember it so well. It's from when Action Comics was a team-up book for a little while, and I looove team-up books. Not that team-up book in specific, but...) I think that was # 593 or 594. Yep, that one. Can't believe Byrne still defends it.
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Post by rberman on May 20, 2019 15:15:25 GMT -5
Equally silly is a would-be ominous splash page of Darkseid watching the scene from a nearby alley. He should mainly be shown as working through lieutenants, not skulking around the corner of a brownstone. Honestly both these criticisms feel to me like "Darkseid would be better if he acted like generic supervillain # 73.412." Again, I disagree. Darkseid's hanging out because he has all the time in the world. He believes in the inexorability of his victory. If something catches his interest, he'll come watch. Chillin' in the alley is 100% in character, all through the series. 'Surprisingly casual' is what differentiates Darkseid from all the Mongul-come-latelies. And later writers got this about half the time. I'm reading the Tom King Mister Miracle series your reviewed and he just completely misses this. But didn't the J. M. Dematties Mr. Miracle series* have a scene where Scott and Barda come home and Darkseid is sitting in their big green armchair? That's Darkseid! * Or maybe this was John Byrne? If Byrne did this, then he was homaging Kirby doing it in New Gods #2. Orion arrives at Dave Lincoln's apartment to find Darkseid sitting there in Dave's chair facing the television. I don't know much about Mongul beyond his appearance in "For the Man Who Has Everything," in which he wades in with his fists to attack the heroes without intermediaries. I haven't read The Fourth World before, so perhaps I will see a different Darkseid here than the one I know from later works, such as Giffen's Legion of Super-Heroes, in which Darkseid is a potentate, ruler of an entire planet, who mainly works through minions and doesn't show up personally until the final issue of the story. In fact, Darkseid has done a whole lot of minion-using in these books so far. Desaad, Simyan, Mokkari, Mantis, Kalibak, etc. The only direct confrontations he's had with the heroes to date have been with the Forever People. Now, if he has a reason to hang around the Metropolis docks, it's not to see Seagrin's body dragged from the water. It's to secretly see his son Orion. But none of the dialogue suggests such things are on his mind. I will keep this "Darkseid: grandly distant or strangely casual?" question in mind as the reviews go forward.
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Post by profh0011 on May 20, 2019 15:40:36 GMT -5
I think you are missing the point to Darkseid's appearance. It is not about Darkseid watching events from close quarters, it is about the truth of war, as Jack Kirby found it, in WW2. So much talk is made of valor and glory and grand crusades, when in the end, there is only butchery. Kirby was haunted by it and Darkseid gives voice to it. It is one of his most powerful and profound pieces of writing, in the saga. The 4th World is not writing, in the conventional sense. It is more of an epic poem, crossed with a philosophical tract, delivered in a sci-fi adventure story. To me, this is what people miss when they say Kirby couldn't write. Kirby could write and brilliantly so. He just didn't write like Stan or others within the field. He was more abstract, more poetic, in a crude way. His meanings often come far later than first reading. Well said.
A lot of people to this day continue to accuse Jack Kirby of being a bad writer, or not being able to write, or not being good at writing dialogue. And it seems to me it always comes down to people who are STAN LEE fans. Not only are they completely enamored of Lee's writing style, and his whole persona, and the way so many who worked for Marvel tried to one level or another to imitate what he was doing and how (to various degrees), but they also have memorized his every word, those he and his cronies have and continues to say, on so many things. And some of that is a feeling of betrayal, for Kirby leaving Marvel when he did, and worse, "saying bad things about STAAAAAAN".
All that aside... Kirby had a UNIQUE style. And I think we need more of that.
You know, for the last 4 years, for "fun", I've been translating foreign Edgar Allan Poe comics into English. And more and more, as I go, I try to use as much original, authentic Poe dialogue and narration as possible when I do. Sometimes, an adaptation changes the presentation of a story so much, that can't be done, but when a scene is right out of the original story, I'll go out of my way to see how much original text I can fit in the panels. I don't see the point in making uncalled for changes. I'd prefer keeping it as Poe wrote it.
I like to think I'm doing the same thing Jeremy Brett did when he got permission to re-write the dialogue in his SHERLOCK HOLMES tv episodes, to bring the scripts more in line with what Arthur Conan Doyle wrote.
I think there are some writers whose work you just should not F*** with. Like Jules Verne... Arthur Conan Doyle... Edgar Allan Poe... and Jack Kirby.
Writers-- and fans-- who think Kirby didn't write characters like Darkseid properly are forgetting... Jack Kirby CREATED those characters. And a big reason he went to DC when he did... was so that after 10 years, he would no longer have to put up with somebody else SCREWING OVER his writing.
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Post by profh0011 on May 20, 2019 15:49:18 GMT -5
"Be YOURSELF, lad! Say something FILTHY!" "MONEY! LOTS of it!"
Oh, I tell you. DC dropped the ball here.
Instead of doing an unofficial, UNPAID cameo that spewed out over 2 whole issues and pissed off the subject...
DC should have struck a DEAL to do a DON RICKLES comic-book, and gotten Arnold Drake & Bob Oksner to do it.
By the 70s, JERRY LEWIS was becoming passe. I bet a DON RICKLES comic would have grabbed a whole new audience.
In fact, this whole story probably would have been 10 times better and funnier if the entire comic-book had been cover-to-cover Don Rickles.
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Post by profh0011 on May 20, 2019 15:52:54 GMT -5
That was Byrne. And he was shown enjoying a snifter of wine on top of it. It was the one good moment in an otherwise completely atrocious storyline. I'm reminded of a comment my 1st comics-shop owner said, about another then up-and-coming egomaniac comics pro (who, for the purpose of this comment, shall remain nameless-- heh). To paraphrase:
"I don't know what happened to John, he USED to be such a nice guy!"
In my case, I don't know what happened... I USED to LIKE Byrne's work.
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Post by Duragizer on May 20, 2019 17:52:46 GMT -5
That was Byrne. And he was shown enjoying a snifter of wine on top of it. It was the one good moment in an otherwise completely atrocious storyline. I'm reminded of a comment my 1st comics-shop owner said, about another then up-and-coming egomaniac comics pro (who, for the purpose of this comment, shall remain nameless-- heh). To paraphrase:
"I don't know what happened to John, he USED to be such a nice guy!"
In my case, I don't know what happened... I USED to LIKE Byrne's work.
Fame can really go to a person's head, especially if they have a vain streak to begin with.
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