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Post by profh0011 on Aug 25, 2019 10:07:44 GMT -5
JACK KIRBY often would create characters by taking one person's face and another person's personality. That's exactly what he did with Tony Stark.
Dr. Stephen Strange was Vincent Price at first--- but by the end of Steve Ditko's run, he looked like Ronald Colman.
DON HECK's Tony Stark was ABSOLUTELY Errol Flynn, and nobody else.
However, one of the later characters, he based on 3 completely different people... at different points in his run. (I'll get to that, when this thread gets that far.) Because he was from a different generation, and was taking inspiratin from a different era, it's no surprise that most fans-- even in the 1960s-- had NO idea of the source of those inspirations.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 25, 2019 11:28:12 GMT -5
So excited to see this thread! Iron Man was my first love in comics.. though I read 'Demon in a Bottle' and 'Armor Wars' before any of the older stuff... I think there's a few ToS ones I've never come across (I want to actually buy them eventually, so I don't have any of the collections).
A few comments so far:
-I've always liked the pretend tech, even if it's illogical and inconsistent. It adds alot of drama, and having writers tie themselves in knots to explain stuff is often a good time.
- I think it's really interesting that there's a montage of 'lost' adventures as early as ToS 40.. just like that, he decides ot be a superhero? So illogical, but fun at the same time. Makes me want Kurt Busiek to do a 'Untold Tales of Iron Man' series!
- I'm not sure Iron Man was ever supposed to be a monster.. I think the horror elements on the origin story are there simply because Marvel was producing alot of horror, and that's what they know. Later re-dos of the origin story eliminate that completely. Clearly, though, Reptilasaurus isn't the only one to see it that way, since they went through the effort of pointing it out in story.
-That cover with the Yellow Claw is intriguing.. is there a story behind that?
Keep up the good work on the reviews!
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 25, 2019 17:17:52 GMT -5
So excited to see this thread! Iron Man was my first love in comics.. though I read 'Demon in a Bottle' and 'Armor Wars' before any of the older stuff... I think there's a few ToS ones I've never come across (I want to actually buy them eventually, so I don't have any of the collections). A few comments so far: -I've always liked the pretend tech, even if it's illogical and inconsistent. It adds alot of drama, and having writers tie themselves in knots to explain stuff is often a good time. - I think it's really interesting that there's a montage of 'lost' adventures as early as ToS 40.. just like that, he decides ot be a superhero? So illogical, but fun at the same time. Makes me want Kurt Busiek to do a 'Untold Tales of Iron Man' series! - I'm not sure Iron Man was ever supposed to be a monster.. I think the horror elements on the origin story are there simply because Marvel was producing alot of horror, and that's what they know. Later re-dos of the origin story eliminate that completely. Clearly, though, Reptilasaurus isn't the only one to see it that way, since they went through the effort of pointing it out in story. -That cover with the Yellow Claw is intriguing.. is there a story behind that? Keep up the good work on the reviews! I don't mind the fake tech. I was mostly pointing out that Stan's ignorance was obvious in it, which is why his stuff with Jack seemed more real, as Jack actually read up on scientific stuff and incorporated it. Heck didn't know from it, either. The technical nature of the armor is used quite well throughout the history of the character, as it gives a built in weakness and dramatic element. Michelinie really upped the ante, compared to some. That Yellow Claw cover is a fake, as you can tell a Maneely image is photoshopped in. I assume Prof or someone else is suggesting it would have been more interesting if they had used the existing Yellow claw character. I would say not so much, though it wouldn't be any more racist than any other Chinese villain, including the Mandarin, or as stereotyped as the Commie villains were. Yellow Claw wasn't a successful character, so why revive him? Made more sense to try a new variation, with the Mandarin.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 26, 2019 11:45:25 GMT -5
My favourite panel from Tales of Suspense #40 was this one:
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Post by profh0011 on Aug 26, 2019 15:43:05 GMT -5
Back in the 1950s, Jack Kirby worked on 2 issues of the short-lived YELLOW CLAW series, which itself started out as a blatent swipe of the ADVENTURES OF FU MANCHU tv series.
The 3 main characters in that 3rd Iron Man story were a megalomaniac who was known to have had a long career as such, his daughter who kept pleading with him to give up his evil ways, and his business partner, an escaped Nazi war criminal.
So much about that story was used to set up who Tony Stark was, it seemed to me it might very well have been done first, with the origin story done after-the-fact (the kind of thing has happened on other occasions, like with Steve Ditko's DR. STRANGE or Mike Grell's JON SABLE FREELANCE). The fact that Jack Kirby did 3 IRON MAN episodes, published out of sequence, coupled with the suggestion someone over the years had made that IRON MAN's debut was "delayed" for several months for unspecificed reasons, only increased the feeling that those 3 were all done BEFORE Don Heck was recruited to pencil. There's also the bit that was pointed out to me that certain details of that origin were identical to a GREEN ARROW story that Jack Kirby wrote in 1958, "The War That Never Ended", where the hero is forced to create weapons for an Asian villain who's holding him prisoner. Jack Kirby often reused ideas and concepts he'd done before.
So it occured to me, when Jack Kirby WROTE that story, he might have had the idea, right from the beginning, to give Iron Man an arch-enemy who was an Asian megalomaniac. And why not reuse the one he'd ALREADY worked with a few years earlier?
For whatever reason, the editor apparently did NOT want to bring back THE YELLOW CLAW. I've read from various sources that he wanted to put behind him anything that pre-dated FANTASTIC FOUR #1 (Sub-Mariner being the odd exception). It would have been very soimple to change the art and change the characters names. Oddly enough, Steve Ditko's DR. STRANGE (undoubtedly influenced to some degree by the Roger Corman film THE RAVEN) wound up debuting only 2 MONTHS after the appearance of this villain "Dr. Strange"... who, after such a huge build-up, was somehow NEVER SEEN AGAIN!
A year later-- IRON MAN finally did get his Asian arch-enenmy-- The Mandarin.
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Post by profh0011 on Aug 26, 2019 15:48:06 GMT -5
A few years later, Jim Steranko decided to bring back THE YELLOW CLAW, in a 9-part epic. However, a careful study by fan, publisher and agent J. David Spurlock revealed MASSIVE editorial interference in one part of that story... which led me to further conclude MORE editorial interference in ANOTHER part. Put simply... the character in the final panel of that story was NEVER intended to be Dr. Doom... as published.
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Post by brutalis on Aug 26, 2019 17:21:25 GMT -5
Iron Man was one of those comics which I could only find sporadically in my youth until the end of the 70's when I was in high school. I always liked his Red and Golden Avenger look. Very streamlined and colorful. I did see a few early reprints here and there with Heck's art and liked what I saw. Saw some Colan and Tuska along the way and really liked their versions. Sadly much of the stories I did get to read where rather a mixed blend of boring or just plain oddly weird. Reading through the Essentials helped me to find a better grasp of what was going on and I found a great many things to like along with the dislikes. Characters were plentiful if Stark himself was a bit bland and always going on about his bum ticker (which if it was such a DANGER, then why the hell continue with the heroics other than Stark was an egotistical adrenaline junky who needed the spotlight) and how close he was to death. And while he was always creating and designing additions to his weaponry it seemed the best he could ever do was add a nose and roller skates? He relied way too much on his repulsor rays and I could never quite figure out how he could fly straight without breaking his ankles with those darn little foot jets.
Overall though I liked ol' Shellhead and wished I could have read more when I was younger.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 27, 2019 16:54:02 GMT -5
A few years later, Jim Steranko decided to bring back THE YELLOW CLAW, in a 9-part epic. However, a careful study by fan, publisher and agent J. David Spurlock revealed MASSIVE editorial interfernce in one part of that story... which led me to further conclude MORE editorial interference in ANOTHER part. Put simply... the character in the final panel of that story was NEVER intended to be Dr. Doom... as published. Who did Steranko intend to appear in the final panel?
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Post by captainthor on Aug 28, 2019 7:09:09 GMT -5
"Demon In A Bottle" and "Armor Wars" are both amazing stories. In fact the entire period from Michelinie's first run through to at least the end of "Armor Wars" is a really strong period for Iron Man. I always find it interesting that so many previously poorly written characters achieved a definitive run starting from the end of the 70s and moving into the 80s. More of Kurt Busiek's Iron Man would definitely be a good thing.
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Post by captainthor on Aug 28, 2019 7:13:05 GMT -5
Characters were plentiful if Stark himself was a bit bland and always going on about his bum ticker (which if it was such a DANGER, then why the hell continue with the heroics other than Stark was an egotistical adrenaline junky who needed the spotlight) and how close he was to death. To be fair, Stark as an egotistical adrenaline junkie who needs the spotlight isn't a bad interpretation of the character. He's definitely got a naturally obsessive personality and he has one of the biggest egos in comics.
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Post by captainthor on Aug 28, 2019 8:23:05 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense Issue 43- Iron Man versus Kala, Queen of The Netherworld Plot: Stan Lee Script: Robert Bernstein Art: Jack Kirby Inking: Don Heck Lettering: Art Simek Grade: DCover: Synopsis: This issue starts with a problem with an experiment at Stark Industries which Iron Man is brought in to solve. He solves the problem and then immediately changes into Tony Stark so that his secret identity is protected by Tony making an appearance at the site of the accident. Tony is then abducted by Kala, Queen of The Netherworld, along with two of his employees, Jim and Evans. Kala explains the origin of the Netherworld: Kala asks Tony to design weapons using his transistor technology in order to allow her to invade the surface world. Tony agrees to do so and asks for a lab with equipment and complete privacy. Kala grants this (for some reason) and Tony notices that Baxu, Kala's general, is uneasy with serving under a female leader and has doubts about the invasion. Tony inevitably uses his new lab to design an Iron Man suit. He defeats Baxu and challenges Kala's guards. Eventually Tony grabs Kala and brings her to the surface. Due to atmospheric differences between the surface and the Netherworld, Kala ages rapidly once she reaches the surface world. As Kala wants to preserve her beauty, she heads back to the Netherworld and abandons the invasion. She marries Baxu. Analysis: In my view, this is the weakest issue of Tales of Suspense so far. As with the previous issue, this story puts a lot of emphasis on the main Silver Age plot. As this plot doesn't really work for me at all, it creates the weakest issue of Tales of Suspense so far. I feel like Silver Age Iron Man is at home in more grounded stories and he always feels a little bit out of place in a Silver Age sci-fi story. Part of this is that sci-fi stories often involve competing with opponents who have superior technology to the technology which the hero possesses. As Iron Man pretty much relies on technology as a hero, it makes it hard for me to believe that Iron Man can defeat villains who have superior technology. This becomes less of a problem as technology progresses and Iron Man becomes more and more powerful. To be fair, Iron Man was meant to be futuristic technology by the standards of the 60s as Tony Stark is often portrayed as a Da Vinci level innovator and inventor who actually has the resources to bring his ideas to life. So, maybe the clunky design of the original Iron Man suit is influencing me unduly there. A second thing to note is that Iron Man's heroism often involves protecting Stark Industries and its property or employees. For example, this issue starts with him dealing with an accident at Stark Industries and the main plot centres around Tony's attempts to rescue two of his employees from Kala's clutches. It often feels like, in the Silver Age, Iron Man's most heroic actions are reserved for his role as an Avenger along with financing and founding the Avengers. To be fair, if Stark Industries failed to make money, Tony would no longer be able to finance the Avengers so his actions could be viewed as heroic from that perspective. Still, in his solo adventures, Iron Man often feels like he's attempting to protect himself over other people and it raises questions about his heroism. Kala doesn't work as an antagonist for me in this story. She does return in a more interesting way in later stories, and her interactions with the Mole Man work far better than her interactions with Baxu do here. She comes across as another poorly written antagonist who is very one-note. She doesn't really appear to have a motive for invading the Earth beyond being evil for the sake of it. Her interactions with Baxu are also sexist. Naturally I have to understand that social attitudes were different in the 60s as a reader... but it still affects my enjoyment of the story and it's a factor in me giving this a D over a C as I need to enjoy a story to give it a C and I just don't particularly enjoy Kala as a character or as a villain. It's interesting to note the number of underground kingdoms which were emerging in Marvel comics at the time. Mole Man, Tyrannus and Kala are all around at this point. It was a common Silver Age trope. Moreover, I'm assuming that the Netherworld was initially a district of Atlantis that cut itself off once Atlantis sank and then sank further into the Earth's core. Otherwise this issue presents continuity issues with Namor's Atlantis.
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Post by captainthor on Aug 28, 2019 8:24:07 GMT -5
My favourite panel from Tales of Suspense #40 was this one: The Silver Age really is a very special time.
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Post by captainthor on Aug 28, 2019 8:25:38 GMT -5
A few years later, Jim Steranko decided to bring back THE YELLOW CLAW, in a 9-part epic. However, a careful study by fan, publisher and agent J. David Spurlock revealed MASSIVE editorial interfernce in one part of that story... which led me to further conclude MORE editorial interference in ANOTHER part. Put simply... the character in the final panel of that story was NEVER intended to be Dr. Doom... as published. An Iron Man with the Yellow Claw as his arch-nemesis over The Mandarin would have been an... interesting world.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 28, 2019 12:25:40 GMT -5
A few years later, Jim Steranko decided to bring back THE YELLOW CLAW, in a 9-part epic. However, a careful study by fan, publisher and agent J. David Spurlock revealed MASSIVE editorial interfernce in one part of that story... which led me to further conclude MORE editorial interference in ANOTHER part. Put simply... the character in the final panel of that story was NEVER intended to be Dr. Doom... as published. An Iron Man with the Yellow Claw as his arch-nemesis over The Mandarin would have been an... interesting world. Yellow Claw as Steranko revived him yes; Yellow Claw as published at Atlas, no. His stories were Fu Manchu knockoffs, with Fu as a Commie agent. They were fine for what they were, in the 50s; but, the stories were pretty light, with the romance between Jimmy Woo and Suwan being the only really interesting element. Steranko turned Yellow Claw into a Bond supervillain, which was so much more interesting. The Mandarin was more of a middle ground, with a more dynamic Fu Manchu ripoff; but, not quite as awe inspiring as the Steranko YC.
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Post by The Captain on Aug 28, 2019 14:30:56 GMT -5
Nice thread you have going here, captainthor. I recently bought the first Marvel Masterworks that contains these stories in it (got it for like $10 at a discount outlet), and I'm going to pull it off the bookshelf and start reading it tonight at my daughter's swim practice so I can keep up and participate. I have read all of the other ToS stories previously and own every IM issue up through the end of 2016, so I will be in this with you for the long haul.
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