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Post by profh0011 on Sept 14, 2019 19:01:39 GMT -5
I know you've said you're not interested much in historical context, but here I might try to persuade you otherwise as this story almost certainly was intended to capitalize on the Cleopatra-mania that surrounded the 1963 film from 20th Century Fox starring Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton. Taylor, as Cleopatra was the "most beautiful woman in the world," both figuratively and literally, so it's no surprise that she would have been on the minds of the creators at Marvel in the dense publicity leading up to and in the wake of one of the most famous productions ever made. "CLEOPATRA" (1963) famously almost SUNK 20th Century-Fox as a studio! It went so monstrously over-schedule and over-budget, and when there were delays, the studio took a break for several months and sunk all they had into another picture, with a massive all-star cast (everyone working "scale", even John Wayne)-- "THE LONGEST DAY"-- which single-handedly SAVED the studio!
"CLEOPATRA" was originally intended to be released as 2 separate 3-hour films-- the first focusing on Caesar (Rex Harrison) and the 2nd focusing on Marc Antony (Richard Burton). But instead, it was cut down to a single 4-hour film, and slowly whittled away over the decades until it became a pathetic shell of its original self.
Having seen multiple versions of the story on film, as well as the Fox epic, it's interesting to compare. It's also interesting to speculate, what might still be missing from the massive restoration, and what was-- or never was-- filmed. For example, while I know the film was based on 2 SEPARATE stage plays (William Shakespeare AND George Bernard Shaw), to me, one of the most famous scenes in literature has to be Marc Antony's soliloquy, following the murder of his best friend. That's the one that famously starts... "Friends, Romans, countrymen-- lend me your ears!"
Marc Antony goes on to repeatedly point out that "Brutus is AN HONORABLE MAN!!" --but really,. he's spelling out that he ISN'T-- and by the end, has riled the crowd to incite a CIVIL WAR!!! I keep wondering... did Richard Burton ever film that scene? Was it even in the script for this epic? Will we ever know?
Meanwhile... I've also seen the comedy from that same period, "CARRY ON CLEO", in which the English, as occupied by the Roman army, look like CAVE men... and live side-by-side with dinosaurs. It's just one of the most outragiously, insanely funny things I've ever seen.
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 14, 2019 19:29:13 GMT -5
One of the things I love doing with old comics is trying to figure out WHO characters were based on when they were originally created. One usually has to go back to the era they debuted-- OR FURTHER, as the creators might be influenced by something then-current, or much further back. This often gets lost by younger fans-- and even younger pros working on a series-- because they just don't have the knowledge or info to be aware of it. Some characters, even in a short space of time, have been based on MORE than one person. It's like a part in a series being recast with another actor. It was that way with Steve Ditko's DR. STRANGE-- who in the first 9 or so episodes, was based on Vincent Price (from " THE RAVEN") but then evolved into Ronald Colman (from " LOST HORIZON"). Then there's Gwen Stacy, who after decades I figured out Ditko based on an actress I never liked-- Lauren Bacall (from " THE BIG SLEEP")!! About a year into Romita's run, on his editor's orders, he recast her as somebody else... but I'm not quite sure who. Another one that took me ages to track down was Happy Hogan. Just in Don Heck's run alone, he based Happy on 3 DIFFERENT actors!!! The first, and sadly the most short-lived-- was pro wrestler turned actor NAT PENDLETON. I discovered this more than a decade ago watching the original DR. KILDARE movie series on TCM, when he played the recurring character of the ambulance driver. He was TOUGH, and CONFIDENT-- even when he shouldn't have been. He was an incredibly fun character to watch, and in terms of the IRON MAN series, where you have a professional boxer turned chauffer, it's a shame this version of the character only lasted a FEW issues!    Here he is with "Dr. Gillespie" (Lionel Barrymore).     |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 14, 2019 21:26:57 GMT -5
Glad to see you back at it! I've always thought the Melter was hilarious, but appropriate... I mean, what artist doesn't want to draw Iron Man with his armor melting off?
I love the Marvel science that Iron Man's armor at this point, I guess is actually made of Iron? But Aluminium... that can't melt. Fantastic.
I too disagree with your Crimson Dynamo rating..sure everything was black and white in the 60s, but that was the time. I think it makes total sense that the Dynamo was going to take over.. that's how the Communism was always perceived in the height of the Cold War. I do get what you're saying though, if you want Dynamo to be a tragic hero, that part doesn't work.
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Post by captainthor on Sept 15, 2019 7:40:29 GMT -5
The Cold War espionage bit works better, with Black Widow. Why send a tank to attack Iron Man when you can send a femme fatale to bed the playboy Tony Stark? She gets in, finds his secrets, passes them on to her bosses. Then, you send the Crimson Dynamo to attack him and take advantage of his weaknesses. Stan had a pretty simplistic view of the Cold War and most international issues and also followed the tradition of talking down to the audience, when it came to real world issues. The more nuanced characterizations did not eliminate the same old cliches. By the same token, Soviet leadership was paranoid and treacherous. Maybe not to Stalin levels; but, power in the Soviet Union meant building blocs of allies against rival factions, either through sheer personality or shrewd politicking. Kruschev got there by a little of both (though if the Germans had been successful at Stalingrad, Kruschev would have been just another casualty of the war, on Stalin's orders). The Crimson Dynamo suit would have looked even better, had they streamlined Tony's armor, at this point. The Soviet's were known for bulky, less refined technology, especially weapon systems. That fit right in with the time. Yep, I largely agree that the Cold War storylines improve a lot when the Black Widow enters the ring. The Titanium Man is also a villain who I'm rather fond of who improves things further. Combine that with the Dynamo and Hawkeye and you can get some pretty interesting stories. I mean, if I were alive in the 1960s I would rather live in the US than in the USSR. Soviet politics could be pretty brutal at times. But the character motivations and the tone of the story, in my view, really don't fit together. You can't portray Vanko as a treacherous Commie for most of the story and then have him flip at the end of the story extremely suddenly because he realises how treacherous Commies are. It just doesn't quite fit together as it should. I also agree that a more streamlined Iron Man suit would probably improve the story a bit. |
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Post by captainthor on Sept 15, 2019 8:00:15 GMT -5
Glad to see you back at it! I've always thought the Melter was hilarious, but appropriate... I mean, what artist doesn't want to draw Iron Man with his armor melting off? I love the Marvel science that Iron Man's armor at this point, I guess is actually made of Iron? But Aluminium... that can't melt. Fantastic. I too disagree with your Crimson Dynamo rating..sure everything was black and white in the 60s, but that was the time. I think it makes total sense that the Dynamo was going to take over.. that's how the Communism was always perceived in the height of the Cold War. I do get what you're saying though, if you want Dynamo to be a tragic hero, that part doesn't work. : Great contributions, very interesting context. I definitely agree that Nat Pendleton bears a striking resemblance to a Mr H. Hogan. Particularly in the bottom picture. wildfire2099: Yeah I do love the artwork of Iron Man's armour melting, it's normally a plus point to any Melter stories out there. He's definitely a villain that belongs in the Silver Age but, largely, I think he works pretty well as a Silver Age villain. Silver Age science just follows it's own very special rules which I've learned to appreciate. With the Dynamo story, my issue is less to do with the black and white nature of Cold War stories at the time, which is something that niggles at me but which I've learned to accept and more with Vanko's characterization. If the story had portrayed Vanko as a Soviet scientist who doesn't understand Soviet politicking, then it really would have landed for me. If the story had had Vanko as a stereotypical Commie and showed a more natural progression to a position where Vanko defects then this story would have landed for me. But as neither is the case, and as this story kind of revolves around Vanko... the entire story falls flat in my opinion. |
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Post by captainthor on Sept 15, 2019 10:10:06 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense 48- The Mysterious Mister Doll Writer: Stan Lee Art: Steve Ditko and Dick Ayers Lettering: Sam Rosen Grade: D+Cover:  Synopsis: The issue starts with Happy, Pepper and Tony discussing a failed contract with one of their suppliers, Charleton Carter, who failed to supply the required materials on time. When Tony arrives at Carter's place it becomes clear pretty quickly that something is wrong. It turns out that Carter is being held captive by Mr. Doll who is using a voodoo doll with Carter's features to force him to sign over his company to Mr. Doll. Iron Man attempts to intervene but is defeated by Mr. Doll and Tony's heart problems return again, this time leaving him unconscious overnight while he recharges after almost dying. Tony determines that his current suit is too heavy which is causing problems for his heart. So he redesigns the suit into a sleeker crimson and gold design:  It is then revealed that Mr. Doll has been picking on the three wealthiest people in the city. Tony Stark is the fourth wealthiest so he is warned by police officers to be wary of Mr Doll. Tony decides that he needs to switch to Iron Man and, since he is being protected by the police and his private guards, he needs to get away from them. So he takes Pepper into a room where there is apparently only one entrance and they are alone so that he can sneak out using a secret entrance and switch to Iron Man. He does this and fights Mr. Doll again, eventually defeating him by using a transistor-powered force beam to re-shape Mr. Doll's doll to protect himself from its effects. Tony's heart once again becomes an issue during the fight. Analysis: Let me start with the negatives here which prevent this story from reaching C territory. My main issue with this story is, in my opinion, it's the first time that Tony's heart problems really reach a level of pure melodrama. This is also now the fourth time in 5 issues that Tony's heart issues have appeared and the motif is becoming too repetitive. Plus it plays a more important role in this story and is more prevalent than it has been in previous issues, as it's the main driving force for Tony redesigning the armour into the classic crimson and gold look. And, sadly, Tony's heart issues only become more prevalent during Stan Lee's run writing Tales of Suspense. Secondly, I didn't really warm to Mr. Doll as a villain. He's a cheesy Silver Age villain and the writers didn't seem to realise this at the time. Unlike the Melter in the previous story who is charmingly corny (largely because the writers seem aware of his innate corniness), Mr. Doll comes off as an attempt to create a threatening villain for Iron Man that just falls flat. He's too corny to be threatening and, because he's portrayed as threatening, it stops him being charmingly corny too. Thirdly, Tony's a real dick to Pepper here. For all of his flaws, Tony is meant to be a good guy at heart and he really treats Pepper badly here. I know that Tony's meant to be a playboy but this goes too far into dickish territory even for Tony. Now, there were a few things I liked here. Firstly, I appreciate the acknowledgement that Tony has a weakness against supernatural villains such as Mr. Doll. Tony's a very grounded hero who seems to really mistrust the more mystical and supernatural aspects of the Marvel universe. But, being a superhero in the Marvel universe, it is natural that Tony would face mystical threats during his career. I like that Tony is portrayed as being a little bit out of his comfort zone when dealing with Mr. Doll, it's good character development and I appreciate it. Secondly, there were a couple of nice moments between the main trio of Happy, Pepper and Tony that I appreciated. Firstly, I like the opening scene where Tony refuses to let Happy drive him to meet Charleton Carter to discuss the failed contract. Happy's reaction to this is, again a nice character moment. Happy is a deeply insecure character, particularly around the rich and successful Tony Stark. It's natural that, when Tony doesn't want Happy to drive him somewhere, Happy will feel like this is due to a lack of trust in Happy. It's a natural reaction for Happy to have. Secondly, I appreciate the set-up of the main character dynamics between the three of them. Happy likes Pepper. Pepper likes Tony. I think that, at this moment in time, Tony does not like Pepper back, although this does change over time. Finally, Pepper appears to like Happy but is currently unwilling to admit that she likes him when she's closely connected to the glamorous Tony Stark. I appreciate the set-up to developing this dynamic here, even if I think that Tony definitely veers too far into dick-Tony territory here. Finally, I like the new armour design. The gold armour makes Iron Man look a bit like a walking can opener. The new armour looks significantly better in my opinion. Iron Man is meant to be red and gold. Overall this is a fairly standard Silver Age one-shot story that isn't terrible but is let down by the melodrama of Tony's heart issues and a villain who doesn't quite land as well as he could do. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2019 10:39:19 GMT -5
I totally agree with this review and I felt that Mr. Doll is not your typical Iron Man Villain, and I've did not really took him as granted and I don't put him in the top 10, let alone 15, nor 20th top 25 villains of Iron Man and if I had it my way ... I would kill him off. I loved the new armour design and felt that Iron Man should be red and gold. This story had too much melodrama with Tony's Heart and the way he treated Pepper in this issue and I felt that he should treated better ... Stan Lee that wrote this issue did a no-no in my opinion and should had not written like this. You gave it a D+ ... I would give it a D because Stan Lee job as a writer.
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Post by beccabear67 on Sept 15, 2019 11:54:51 GMT -5
Catching up... I would've liked to have seen Iron Man fight Khrushchev directly... kind of like the WWII heroes would be punching Hitler, kicking Mussolini in the rear end, or sinking a boat with Tojo on board.  I had a really beaten up copy of #47 but barely remembered much about it, it really wasn't too memorable was it? I always wanted to read #48 with the new armor, maybe it was harder to find and/or expensive by the early-mid '80s (like all early Marvels weren't hard to find). But I had #49 which is up next (terrible art combination, but an extremely early X-men appearance when the first five or six issues of their own magazine were way out of reach as back issues). I really like the Don Heck art, even just inks... am I crazy or does he sometimes show a slight John Severin influence? I'll admit too that I never saw Nat Pendleton before this... interesting! |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Sept 15, 2019 12:23:08 GMT -5
According to GCD, the Iron Man figure on the cover was a stat from TOS #43's splash page. |
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 15, 2019 12:29:26 GMT -5
I suspect any major problems with the writing is due to the relay-race nature of it on these stories.
In most 1960s "Marvel Method" stories-- which were NOT done the same way as 1970s "Marvel Method" stories were-- you often had 2 writers, who sometimes worked very much at odds with each other. With the early IRON MANs, you tended to have 3 WRITERS on any given episode.
It's remarkable that anything really memorable-- or entertaining-- resulted from this chaos.
What many are unaware of is... in the 1960s, for the most part, artists on Marvel books were WRITING their own stories. Then the editor would come in, after-the-fact, and write the dialogue, making changes to the story at that point-- or not-- as he saw fit.
IRON MAN got more confusing than that, because in the first year, the guy coming up with the story ideas-- the guy who was doing ALL THE COVERS-- was not the guy drawing (and writing) the stories from those ideas. And then, another writer would come in to do the dialogue.
Once Larry Lieber and Robert Bernstein (and Don Rico, and in one instance, Al Hartley) were out of the picture, you STILL had 3 writers involved!
Jack Kirby -- story idea and villain designs
Don Heck -- story & art
Stan Lee -- dialogue
I mentioned Al Hartley, because the one story he filled in on doing the dialogue, his stuff was MUCH funnier!
The 3 issues with Steve Ditko add another level, because while I'm sure it was still Kirby on plot and Ditko on story, I'm not sure exactly WHO redesigned the armor... and it's a pretty good chance it was Ditko, with Don Heck later MODIFYING it to what I consider the real "classic" look.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Sept 15, 2019 12:34:04 GMT -5
Another one that took me ages to track down was Happy Hogan. Just in Don Heck's run alone, he based Happy on 3 DIFFERENT actors!!! The first, and sadly the most short-lived-- was pro wrestler turned actor NAT PENDLETON. GCD agrees with you anout Happy being based on Nat Pendleton, and says Pepper was based on Ann B Davis. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Sept 15, 2019 12:43:48 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense 48- The Mysterious Mister Doll Writer: Stan Lee Art: Steve Ditko and Dan Ayers Lettering: Sam Rosen I think you mean Dick Ayers. GDC says, "Mister Doll was originally named Mister Pain, a change noticeable in the lettering, and confirmed in Essential Iron Man (Marvel, 2000 series) #1. It was presumably changed to meet the restrictions of the Comics Code." |
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Post by captainthor on Sept 15, 2019 12:53:27 GMT -5
Catching up... I would've liked to have seen Iron Man fight Khrushchev directly... kind of like the WWII heroes would be punching Hitler, kicking Mussolini in the rear end, or sinking a boat with Tojo on board. I had a really beaten up copy of #47 but barely remembered much about it, it really wasn't too memorable was it? I always wanted to read #48 with the new armor, maybe it was harder to find and/or expensive by the early-mid '80s (like all early Marvels weren't hard to find). But I had #49 which is up next (terrible art combination, but an extremely early X-men appearance when the first five or six issues of their own magazine were way out of reach as back issues). I really like the Don Heck art, even just inks... am I crazy or does he sometimes show a slight John Severin influence? I'll admit too that I never saw Nat Pendleton before this... interesting! I believe the art in these issues is meant to be more Ditko than Heck but, that being said, a lot of the stuff in #47 in particular looks like it's more Heck than Ditko? Maybe someone knows the full story behind who did what for these issues than I do. |
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Post by captainthor on Sept 15, 2019 12:57:21 GMT -5
I suspect any major problems with the writing is due to the relay-race nature of it on these stories. In most 1960s "Marvel Method" stories-- which were NOT done the same way as 1970s "Marvel Method" stories were-- you often had 2 writers, who sometimes worked very much at odds with each other. With the early IRON MANs, you tended to have 3 WRITERS on any given episode. It's remarkable that anything really memorable-- or entertaining-- resulted from this chaos. What many are unaware of is... in the 1960s, for the most part, artists on Marvel books were WRITING their own stories. Then the editor would come in, after-the-fact, and write the dialogue, making changes to the story at that point-- or not-- as he saw fit. IRON MAN got more confusing than that, because in the first year, the guy coming up with the story ideas-- the guy who was doing ALL THE COVERS-- was not the guy drawing (and writing) the stories from those ideas. And then, another writer would come in to do the dialogue. Once Larry Lieber and Robert Bernstein (and Don Rico, and in one instance, Al Hartley) were out of the picture, you STILL had 3 writers involved! Jack Kirby -- story idea and villain designs Don Heck -- story & art Stan Lee -- dialogue I mentioned Al Hartley, because the one story he filled in on doing the dialogue, his stuff was MUCH funnier! The 3 issues with Steve Ditko add another level, because while I'm sure it was still Kirby on plot and Ditko on story, I'm not sure exactly WHO redesigned the armor... and it's a pretty good chance it was Ditko, with Don Heck later MODIFYING it to what I consider the real "classic" look. See nowhere in the issues themselves is there any mention that Kirby was doing a lot of the plotting work. The writing is largely just attributed to Lee (and to be fair to Lee, humour is one thing which he's actually pretty good at as a writer). I do get the sense, though, that a lot of these early stories are very collaborative efforts and there was no real clear dividing line between who did what on each comic. It definitely feels like, during the 70s, the jobs that needed doing on an individual story were far more specialised. |
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Post by captainthor on Sept 15, 2019 13:00:41 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense 48- The Mysterious Mister Doll Writer: Stan Lee Art: Steve Ditko and Dan Ayers Lettering: Sam Rosen I think you mean Dick Ayers. GDC says, "Mister Doll was originally named Mister Pain, a change noticeable in the lettering, and confirmed in Essential Iron Man (Marvel, 2000 series) #1. It was presumably changed to meet the restrictions of the Comics Code." Yep I did mean Dick, about to be amended. And I get the impression that Mister Doll was meant to be a horror-villain who was genuinely meant to be imposing and threatening. The issue gives me the impression that someone was really proud of this story and of Mister Doll as a villain... it just completely falls flat in practice. |
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