|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 21, 2020 11:51:36 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info, Cody! I know we have to suspend disbelief at times. I mean, the first Columbo episode was in, what, the late 60s? And the final one aired in 2003, yet he was a lieutenant that whole time. Not only is that a long career in and of itself, but I can’t believe he wouldn’t have been given a promotion in that time. To be fair to Columbo, there isn't a whole lot of "up" for him to move in most US police departments. Basically Captain, Deputy Chief of Police and Chief of Police. That may vary somewhat from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but essentially if he wanted to work cases instead of being stuck behind a desk doing administrative work he was as high as he was going to get.
|
|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 21, 2020 11:56:18 GMT -5
(...) A detective show over here ( A Touch of Frost) featured a detective inspector - William Frost - who I think became the oldest TV policeman in history. By the time the final episode aired, I think the actor was 68. Real detectives over here can and do retire at 60 - or sometimes earlier. (...) Yeah, I've seen a few episodes of that show; never really got into it, among other things because it was so odd seeing Del Boy (and Pop Larkin!) playing a cop.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2020 11:57:11 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info, Cody! I know we have to suspend disbelief at times. I mean, the first Columbo episode was in, what, the late 60s? And the final one aired in 2003, yet he was a lieutenant that whole time. Not only is that a long career in and of itself, but I can’t believe he wouldn’t have been given a promotion in that time. To be fair to Columbo, there isn't a whole lot of "up" for him to move in most US police departments. Basically Captain, Deputy Chief of Police and Chief of Police. That may vary somewhat from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but essentially if he wanted to work cases instead of being stuck behind a desk doing administrative work he was as high as he was going to get. That is a good point because I think he loved his work. Can’t imagine him as a captain or deputy chief, allocating work to others.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Sept 21, 2020 21:07:30 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info, Cody! I know we have to suspend disbelief at times. I mean, the first Columbo episode was in, what, the late 60s? And the final one aired in 2003, yet he was a lieutenant that whole time. Not only is that a long career in and of itself, but I can’t believe he wouldn’t have been given a promotion in that time. A detective show over here ( A Touch of Frost) featured a detective inspector - William Frost - who I think became the oldest TV policeman in history. By the time the final episode aired, I think the actor was 68. Real detectives over here can and do retire at 60 - or sometimes earlier. I accept suspension of disbelief, but a lot of military shows/movies do appear to imply they are aiming for accuracy. That’s interesting that you get two shots at promotion - and then you’re out. Do you have to go for promotion, though? Can you not choose to stay at the lowest rank for your whole career? Incidentally, a naval show aired over here (one season) called Making Waves. The commander of the ship in that series, Commander Martin Brooke, was a helicopter pilot but he was given command of a ship. In fact, in one episode, a lieutenant commander (engineering) got sacked - but before he was dismissed, he said to Commander Brooke, “What would you know about commanding a ship? You’re just a flyboy!” Yeah, I've seen Touch of Frost. It played here, on Mystery, on PBS. David Jason, of Only Fools and Horses and the voice of Danger Mouse. Married him off at the end, then killed his best friend. With Columbo, It is possible he maneuvered himself out of promotion or refused it; and given his case success rate, they would let it go. The US military does not allow that. Now, some things may have changed post-9/11; but, in my day, you had to be promoted to the next rank or you would be administratively discharged from the service. You had to have a minimum time at your present rank, before you became eligible for promotion. For instance, I had to serve as an ensign for 2 years, before I was eligible for promotion to LT (JG), which I was. I then had to have 2 years at LT(JG), before I became eligible for promotion to LT. That was the first time your record comes up for review by a promotion board. LT (JG) was pretty much automatic (though mine was delayed a few months while I dropped weight). You become eligible early, but might not be promoted at that time. Your record is then reviewed again at the normal review time and it is either promotion or you are out. You get two shots at it, at each level of rank. I decided to resign my commission, at the end of my 4 year commitment, as that was more than enough for me. So, I submitted my resignation at the time I was becoming eligible for early promotion to LT. Had I satyed in and been promoted, I would have gone to my next duty station, at a shore command, then back to sea again, as a department head. Then, towards the end of that tour, I would probably become eligible for LCDR, for the first go round. I would go to a shore command again, or possibly post-graduate school. I would then go to sea again, if promoted to LCDR as the XO of a supply department, on a larger vessel (probably a repair ship or supply ship). Then, back to shore and eligibility for CDR, and, if promoted, back to sea as the CO of a large supply operation. After that, it would be shore and aiming for CPT, and CO of a supply center or other large supply operation. After that, it's retirement or make flag rank and there was only one admiral in Supply Corps. For regular Line Officers (those who run and command combatant ships), it is similar, except, after your Department Head tour on a ship and shore duty, you would be next assigned as an Executive Officver of a ship, then shore and back to sea as the Commanding Officer of a ship, then make Captain and run a squadron and try to make admiral and rise to a fleet command. Submariners were pretty much the same, but aviators were a bit different. First tour is as a pilot, second sea tour is probably XO of a squadron, then CO of a squadron, then Air Group on a Carrier, then Commanding Officer on a carrier. Flyboys do command aviation ships: aircraft carriers, assault ships with aircraft, etc. Then they go for Flag rank (admiral). I do believe that helicopter pilots do command ships in the British navy, after their rise through the ranks. Again, the primary duty for those ships is the launch and recovery of combat aircraft.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Sept 21, 2020 21:28:38 GMT -5
What he is referring to is the Carrier Onboard Delivery aircraft, or COD planes; the C-2A Greyhound. In recent years, they have been looking to replace them with either the V-22 Osprey tiltrotor or a modified S-3 Viking anti-submarine patrol aircraft (which is flown off of carriers). Tiltrotor seems to have backing, as they continue to justify the massive expenditure on that thing for the last 30 years. I did a paper in one of my grad school classes on the V-22 Osprey. This would have been late 1991. Even then it was a text book example of government waste. Absolutely nobody outside of Boeing, Bell and Congress wanted the damn thing. While I was serving, it was considered a death trap and some Marine squadrons were busted falsifying maintenance records (probably under orders) to make their performance look better. The truth of things was it didn't have the lifting capacity of the SH-53, but had greater speed. The transition from hovering to forward flight, as I recall was one of the most dangerous moments. Thing is, experiments on those types of aircraft went back to the 60s. Out in the surface Navy, we had the AEGIS Weapon System, which was on the Ticonderoga-class cruisers and the new Arleigh Burke destroyers. It used a phased array radar to identify and designate targets for surface to air missiles. The radar was electronically directed, rather than a rotating dish that projected the beam. We saw a demonstration, as a midshipman, of the control station in the Combat Information Center. It had a rollerball controller, like an arcade game and it was rather like playing Missile Command, Problem was, the radar was often down, or some other elements of the system and you were constantly ordering emergency repair parts to get it operational. We had what was known as Casualty reports (or CASREPS), whenever a piece of equipment was down, which inhibuted your ability to carry out your mission (engines, navigation radar, fire control systems, etc). The most CASREPed system in the US Navy, in the early 90s was the AEGIS Weapon System. A close second was the Close In Weapon System, which is the R2D2 looking mini gun station, that you see firing in the Wonder Woman 84 trailer... The radars were very twitchy. In that trailer, you see them being used as an offensive weapon. They are only for defense, designed to destroy inbound missiles. They also show them mounted in tandem and the are usually only mounted as a single weapon or one forward and one aft, on a big ship. They use a spent uranium projectile, with a very dense mass, to destroy the missile. However, as was shown in the first Gulf War, when the round hits a target, uranium dust in released into the atmosphere and there was a strong link between spent uranium munitions in the Gulf War and Gulf War Syndrome and the cancer rates of people living in the battle zones of that war. There were also links to experimental vaccines taken against potential chemical weapons. There has been a fight going on ever since the war, much like the fight to recognize Agent Orange health issues, with the Vietnam Era Vets.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 12:13:10 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2020 7:03:14 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Nov 25, 2020 0:01:35 GMT -5
Must be something up with your link; whenever I click on it, it doesn't take me anywhere. I know the Navy "Heroes" who worked with him on the first one had few kind words about him. Guess he finally grew up.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2020 8:38:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2022 8:19:58 GMT -5
From Fortune: Full article HERE.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Jun 3, 2022 23:25:41 GMT -5
Here's a bit of fun, from the Legal Eagle channel, on Youtube, as he and a former JAG officer explore the number of violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice by Maverick....
Couple of errors within it, as the ex-Marine JAG served later and lacked some perspective on the era. The host mentions violating the California motorcycle helmet law, which didn't come into existence until a year or two later. However, the JAG missed the fact that DOD regulations require all service members to wear helmets while operating a motorcycle (and hard-soled boots, long pants and other protective gear) and seatblets, in a motor vehicle.
The host brings up the alleged gay subtext and the JAG says it would be a no-no within the chain of command; but, not necessarily in their private lives. That is completely wrong. The film was released in 1986, when admitting to being a homosexual or the military producing evidence of homosexual activity was grounds for dismissal from the service. It didn't matter how good your service record was, you were out. This changed in 1994, when "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," came into effect; BUT, only in the matter of the military asking if you were a homosexual. The military was barred from asking if a service member was a homosexual; but, the service members also were barred from openly admitting their sexual orientation. If they did, they were dismissed from the service, for violating that policy. You could not be kicked out for suspicion of being a homosexual; but, you could be kicked out for openly declaring that you were gay. It was a while before serving openly as a homosexual service member was allowed. The Jag served in the post-9/11 military.
It's not covered in too great a depth, but the JAG cites the two major charges of "Conduct Unbecoming an Officer and a Gentleman" and "Disobeying a Direct Order." The latter is pretty self-explanatory, as is the charge he brings up a couple of times for deliberately hazarding his aircraft. "Conduct Unbecoming" is a massive "catch-all" that pretty much covers any action that might embarrass the Navy, regardless of criminal intent or disobedience. It has been used against whistle-blowers and others, for political reasons, as well as deserved behaviors, like sexual harassment, drunken behavior and to just pile on charges for criminal offenses, when they really want to throw the book at someone.
Military law is quite different from civilian and is also a separate jurisdiction. A servicemember can commit a criminal offense and be tried in civilian court, then face charges under the UCMJ, for the same offense. I took part in the court martial of a warrant officer, from one of the squadron's ships, where the warrant officer had been charged with sexually molesting his stepdaughter. She broke down and told a school guidance counselor, who immediately reported the situation to the Charleston, SC authorities, who arrested him and he was tried in civilian court. Now, he was facing military justice for violations of the UCMJ. He was ultimately sentenced to 10 years, hard labor, at Leavenworth. I am not a violent person; but, as I heard some of the testimony, I was glad I did not carry a sidearm, as I am not exactly sure I wouldn't have used it. Anyway, usually, the civilian authorities will turn over the case to the military, for disposition; but, not always. depends on the offense. I had a disbursing clerk who was arrested by the civilian authority for possession of cocaine and he was remanded into Navy custody, then brought up on charges, for Captain's Mast (non-judicial punishment....like the principal of the school dishing out punishment; but, he can bust you back a grade in school, take away 2/3 of your allowance for 60 days (and a reduced pay rate, since you were busted a grade) and give you 90 days detention and extra homework). He was administratively discharged from the Navy, for violating the drug policy. While he was under arrest, his situation was compounded by the results of a random urinalysis which indicated cocaine in his system. Nice guy and good worker; but, he had a problem. I had to sign off on his paperwork, as he left and wished him well, but told him he needed to seek help to deal with the drugs and rebuild his life. No idea whatever happened to him.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2022 7:04:13 GMT -5
Seems a convenient time for me to ask a question or two.
Do JAG officers do any weapons training, drill, etc?
Who are those jurors (if jurors they be) in courtroom scenes, e.g. A Few Good Men? Randomly selected like civilian jurors?
Here in the UK, we have the Army Legal Services Branch (part of the Adjutant General’s Corps), an all-officer branch. A lawyer who joins this branch skips Second Lieutenant and Lieutenant, being commissioned directly as a Captain. Do JAG departments in U.S. armed forces also skip ranks?
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Jun 4, 2022 12:37:01 GMT -5
Seems a convenient time for me to ask a question or two. Do JAG officers do any weapons training, drill, etc? Who are those jurors (if jurors they be) in courtroom scenes, e.g. A Few Good Men? Randomly selected like civilian jurors? Here in the UK, we have the Army Legal Services Branch (part of the Adjutant General’s Corps), an all-officer branch. A lawyer who joins this branch skips Second Lieutenant and Lieutenant, being commissioned directly as a Captain. Do JAG departments in U.S. armed forces also skip ranks? The Marine officers go through The Basic School, where they are trained as infantry officers first, including weapons, before going on to their specialty. Some switch from a previous specialty to JAG. I knew a Marine captain who was a pilot and transferred to the JAG Corps, after earning his law degree. The JAG officer in the video did that, as well. In the Navy, most came into the JAG Corps directly from law school; often the Navy paid for their schooling, in return for a term of service. I don't know for certain; but, I suspect they also have an OCS recruitment, similar to Supply Corps and the Medical Corps, putting them through a commissioning program, then sending them to a specialty training school (that was the normal method for Supply Corps officers; OCS then 6 months of Supply Corps School). They might do a weapons qualification; but, in my time, that was pretty much only while you were assigned to a ship, a security billet, or with the SEALs. I don't recall any of the destroyer squadron staff having to qualify with weapons. A couple went to the pistol range to try to earn a pistol marksman badge; but, that was about it. I tried it once, but sucked horribly, due to my myopia and the .38 revolvers we were using. I have smaller hands and the pistol was a bit cumbersome, to me. I did much better on board ship, with a .45 and qualified with pistol and 12 gauge shotgun (of course, I only had to fire three rounds and hit the ocean!). I did fire weapons during my midshipman training cruises, handling a .50 cal machine gun, during my first cruise, an M-16A2 rifle and M203 grenade launcher, on my second. I grew up in a family that hunted and had target fired a .22 rifle and hunted with my own 20 ga. shotgun. Medical Corps starts out at Lieutenant Rank (equivalent to an Army captain) and I think the JAG Corps does, too, because of the level of schooling and the nature of their work. Supply Corps started as lowly ensigns, which meant we got treated like @#$%, doubly, as supply officers (not everyone; but, there was a certain subset of line officers who looked down on supply officers) and as "butter bars." Usually, it is only in highly specialized fields, with great technical schooling, that the officer starts at a higher rank. Pilots go through a lot of training before they are assigned to a squadron and are usually at least a Lt(jg), when they arrive, which you usually get after 2 years service. I could be wrong about that, though. Seems to me it is similar, for the SEALs; but, I am not sure about that. I know that midshipman who wanted to go into Nuclear Power, Aviation or Special Warfare (SEALs) had a 6 year commitment, instead of the usual 4 (or 5, for some midshipman who got certain engineering degrees, which required more than the usual 4 years). Most of that was because you were going to go through a much longer training process (Nuke School and Prototype are about a year, in total and BUD/S and SEAL Tactical Training are about a year, cumulative. Flight School is quite lengthy; but, I am not sure how long, exactly, before earning your wings.) You can also have an officer transfer into a restricted line, who is already at a higher rank. My class at Supply Corps School had a lieutenant, who came from submarines, who switched to supply. He was the ranking officer for my class and also for the students in the program, at the time. We also had a warrant officer, who was a chief who was promoted to warrant rank. The rest of us were ensigns, fresh from the Academy, NROTC or OCS. A military court martial does not have a jury, per se. There is a panel of senior officers who determine the verdict or just a single judge, depending on the offense. The prosecuting and defending attorneys argue before the judge or panel. The court martial where I acted as bailiff was just a single judge (a Marine colonel). Service members can have civilian lawyers, though. They act in conjunction with a military defense attorney, who provides expertise about military legal procedure and statutes. The warrant officer who was tried in the case in which I participated had a civilian lawyer, with a Navy defense attorney. The prosecuting team was a Navy lieutenant and the Marine captain I mentioned earlier (the ex-pilot). I only knew from Hollywood and was surprised to see the civilian defense attorney and the Marine captain speaking, during a recess, about a few things that occurred. Not within the case; but in the courtroom. The Navy prosecutor was being a bit overzealous and wasn't listening to some of the responses given by a few civilian witnesses (therapists who were involved in treating the warrant officer, as part of his sentence from the civilian court) and was creating a hostile environment. The judge reprimanded him for not listening to the witnesses and warned him to tone it down. They were discussing that; and, the judge, in general. The judge chewed tobacco during the entire trial and kept a spittoon beneath his desk and would periodically spit into it (Ping!). The Marine captain said he was known to spit at a lawyer who ticked him off greatly!. Back to the jury. It is a panel, made up of officers, usually, though the accused, if an enlisted member, may request that 1/3 of the panel consist of enlisted personnel. It's usually a panel of 3, but it can be more. You also have "non-judicial punishment," under Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The Marines refer to it as "Office Hours," while the Navy calls it "Captain's Mast," as it was traditionally conducted before the main mast, on a sailing vessel. Charges are brought against a servicemember for less serious offenses and then referred to the commanding officer, under Article 15. The CO then hears the case and renders judgement and is legally authorized to issue certain limited punishments. In the Navy system, charges would be brought, which would first go to XOI, or Executive Officer's Investigation. The XO would hear the charges, listen to the accused's defense and could dismiss it outright, if he or she felt the charges were unfair or refer it to the CO, for disposition. The one time I was involved with XOI, on my first ship, the XO referred every charge to the CO; but, then again, he was a complete a-hole, beyond the normal levels expected of the XO (XO is usually Bad Cop and the CO is Good Cop, though you can have Bad Cop and Even Worse Cop). Those referred to the CO are then brought before the Commanding Officer and the charges are read. The CO then asks the accused to state their side and then renders judgement. In the Navy, he could reduce the accused one grade in rank, take away a portion (up to 2/3) of their pay for a specific period (up to either 60 or 90 days; my memory is hazy on that point), restrict them to the ship for up to 90 days, and assign them to extra duty, beyond their normal duties. He can give any of those punishements or a combination of them, if he really wants to send a message. The real kicker is if he reduces them in rank and takes away pay, as their pay is determined at the new lower rank. So, they get busted a grade and then earn less money because of it; AND, get up to 2/3 of it taken away from them. You'd be surprised at how quickly someone shapes up when they have money taken away! Lot of kids out of high school suddenly grow up. Captain's Mast was a pretty formal affair. The Master at Arms brings in the accused, in full military bearing. They stand at attention while the charges are read and must answer formally and can only relax if the CO puts them at Parade Rest (which they rarely do). It is not a good place to shoot your mouth off (which was often why young sailors ended up at Captain's Mast). I chief I worked with had served on a destroyer that had been commanded by the squadron's then-current Chief Staff Officer (second in command of the squadron). He was a witness for a sailor who was brought up on charges of disobedience and disorderly conduct. The accused kept violating protocol, was belligerent, and then leaned over th captain's podium. The CO was second generation Navy and a no-BS guy. He dismissed everyone but the accused from his quarters (where Mast was held). The chief said they all left and closed the door. he said he heard a loud smack, followed by a thump. They were called back in and found the accused sailor lying on the deck, unconscious. The captain told the master at arms to "Get this POS out of my stateroom!" and that was that. Now, legally, an officer cannot strike an enlisted member, except in self defense; but, there were no witnesses that anything to prove anything other than the accused tripping and falling to the deck, knocking himself out, occurred. I really respected that officer, as he was always straight with you, had no time for the politics and BS that seemed to come with the officer corps, and did what really needed to be done, giving praise where it was due, and handling discipline in private. I always tried to think of how he would handle things, as a manager, in civilian life. Well, minus swearing at incompetent leaders and cold-cocking loudmouth punks who are asking for it. Civilians get uptight about that.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2022 12:51:27 GMT -5
Bad Cop and Even Worse Cop? That comment made me smile, as did your final sentence. Thanks for the info.
Incidentally, and I am sure there is a traditional reason for this, I was reading about UK military policing (historical and modern) recently - and it said how Royal Navy Police are known as regulators. Meanwhile, the military police for the British Army and RAF just refer to their personnel as military police (I’ve no idea if the Royal Marines Police still exists).
“Regulators” no doubt is a word with a purpose, but “regulators” makes me think of those engaged in, say, tax compliance - or organizations regulating the energy market. I’ll read more on this.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Jun 4, 2022 16:34:10 GMT -5
Bad Cop and Even Worse Cop? That comment made me smile, as did your final sentence. Thanks for the info. Incidentally, and I am sure there is a traditional reason for this, I was reading about UK military policing (historical and modern) recently - and it said how Royal Navy Police are known as regulators. Meanwhile, the military police for the British Army and RAF just refer to their personnel as military police (I’ve no idea if the Royal Marines Police still exists). “Regulators” no doubt is a word with a purpose, but “regulators” makes me think of those engaged in, say, tax compliance - or organizations regulating the energy market. I’ll read more on this. In the US, the Army has the Military Police (MP) and the Air Force has Air Police (AP, known as "Apes") and the Navy has Shore Patrol (SP); however, the Navy also has Masters-at-Arms. In the Army and the Air Force, the MPs and APs are regular security people, specifically trained in that field, providing base security and law enforcement. In the Navy, the professionals are the Masters-at-Arms, while Shore Patrol is tasked with keeping the peace. Shore patrol can be assigned to a duty section, when in a away port, to keep those out on liberty, in line,. If you ever see Mr Roberts, with Henry Fonda, there is a scene where the Shore Patrol brings back a load of drunken sailors, who have been involved in fights and general mayhem (and later, the ship is surrounded by SPs, after an incident at the colonial governor's home and everyone restricted to the ship). That is basic SP duty. They would also stand guard on a pier, in a home port. The Master-At-Arms is an actual professional rating, with law enforcement and security duties. The Navy also, traditionally, has had the Marines to guard bases and provide security on board flag vessels and other major combatants. Carries will always have a Marine detachment, as will a battleship or cruiser, since it is usually a flagship, if it isn't the carrier. Most US Naval bases had civilian guards at the gate, unless we were at a heightened "threat condition." During the Operation Desert Storm, we suddenly went on a wartime footing, upon the launching of the first airstrikes on Baghdad. That night, my sister and I were having dinner at a Fudruckers restaurant (higher level burger joint), when the wait staf suddenly started turning all of the TVs in the place to CNN, as they had live coverage of the bombing. I turned to my sister and said that work was going to be interesting, the next morning. Sure enough, they had counter-terrorist security barries in front of the drive to the main gate (forcing you to zig-zag) and Naval personnel guarding the gates, with loaded weapons. They did ID checks, before letting you into the base. Those were Masters-at-Arms; actual professionals. Ships will also have a Security Alert Team (at least, in my day), which consists of personnel from several divisions, including the Gunnery and Master-at-Arms, and others. As Disbursing Officer, I was a part of my ship's security alert team, since I was authorized to carry a sidearm, when handling money (payday or when picking up pay, at the bank). We went through specialized training, though I was not in the job long enough to be sent off to the training course. Naval vessels usually fight at distance, so the Security Alert Team mainly came into play in a port situation, with a terrorist or other security threat (including anti-nuke protestors and Greenpeace, back in my day). On board ship, as I recall, the Master-at-Arms fell under the Administrative Division, which was run by the Executive Officer. They also handled guarding the accused and escorting them to XOI and Captain's Mast.
|
|