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Post by fanboystranger on Mar 28, 2015 23:20:29 GMT -5
Great until issue 51 (when Geoff Johns was co-writing with David Goyer, plus James Robinson for the first five issues), then tapers off. There's still some great stories afterwards like Black Reign, but it's more hit and mess after that. Honestly, this is when I thought Geoff Johns was the heir to John Ostrander as far as quality writing, but it didn't turn out like that. Definitely recommend JSA 1-51, "Black Reign", and the "Our Worlds at War" Special. Counterpoint: It was really, really, really bad. I think I've read... eh, about 75% of all the JSA/All Star Squad/Squadron stories published, and my "Ten Worst" list would all be from this series. Trite characterization, predictable plotting, the same boring structure with a "surprise shock ending" at the end of every issue... plus the tone is just boring. The writers just didn't seem to be able to do anything but "standard superhero" very little humor, the secret identity stuff was treated with the exact same narrative tone and pace as the superhero stuff. The creative team could only do one thing - Traditional superhero stories splattered with slasher movie violence. I just loathe the whole thing. Addendum A: A lot of people really liked it. Addendum B: I actually thought it got better as it went - There was a cool Gentelman Ghost arc towards the end of the series, then it relaunched from # 1 and picked up immensely. Addendum C: Their was a standalone JLA/JSA graphic novel in the middle of the series, which I thought was great fun. Get that. Addendum D: Also the Hawkman series that spun out of it was pretty great, at least for the first dozen issues. While JSA was overly serious, predictable, and so rooted in the past that it was vigorously anti-creative , Hawkman had six armed elephant men rampaging across the country! Yay Comics! Edit: Addendum E: I did like the Star Spangled Kid - It seemed like she was beamed over from another, competently written, mainstream comic, and the stories picked up immeasurably whenever she was featured. We're going to have to agree to disgree. Quite frankly, it was the only good thing done with those characters in about a decade. Also, Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E, same creative team putting her into JSA stories. As with the Hawkman series.
Maybe it was meant for people who weren't too familiar with the JSA, which I wasn't at the time. I was introduced to these characters through Starman and Sandman Mystery Theatre. I think it stands up, though.
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Post by fanboystranger on Mar 28, 2015 23:25:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I think that's right.. I remember Goyer taking over.. I thought Robinson wrote more than 5 issues, though. No, first five of that series. John Smith is still upset with him. (John Smith is the great 2000AD writer who reworked his "Dr Fate" proposal into Scarab, which formed the backbone of the first JSA storyline and the "Johnny Sorrow" storyline.) [Smith still wins 'cause Indigo Prime is better than everything!] |
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Post by fanboystranger on Mar 28, 2015 23:34:35 GMT -5
I think the JSA series I liked with the James Robinson one... before Johns. I only read the 1st bit of Johns' series, and wasn't impressed, but I like him only slightly more than I like Hickman, so I'm biased. There's two Johns series. The first one, JSA, began with James Robinson and David Goyer, who were co-plotting Starman at the time. Johns came on with issue 6, but he had been writing Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E at the time, which introduced Stargirl. Great stuff, unless you're Reptilsaurus, who I normally agree with.
There's a second Justice Society of America series by Johns, which is garbage. Avoid that.
Also, I'm very critical towards Hickman, but that's because I've read of a lot of the Euro- and '80s independent comics he forms his stories from. Read some Jodorowsky, Talbot, Bilal, Secret History, some 2000AD, Nexus, and Dreadstar, then you know where he's going. Think he gets far too much praise as an "ideas" man when all he's just fitting those stories into the Marvel Universe (or Manhattan Projects, which is pretty much the interwar years of The Secret History decompressed with some humor).
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Post by spoon on Mar 28, 2015 23:49:20 GMT -5
Great until issue 51 (when Geoff Johns was co-writing with David Goyer, plus James Robinson for the first five issues), then tapers off. There's still some great stories afterwards like Black Reign, but it's more hit and mess after that. Honestly, this is when I thought Geoff Johns was the heir to John Ostrander as far as quality writing, but it didn't turn out like that. Definitely recommend JSA 1-51, "Black Reign", and the "Our Worlds at War" Special. Counterpoint: It was really, really, really bad. I think I've read... eh, about 75% of all the JSA/All Star Squad/Squadron stories published, and my "Ten Worst" list would all be from this series. Trite characterization, predictable plotting, the same boring structure with a "surprise shock ending" at the end of every issue... plus the tone is just boring. The writers just didn't seem to be able to do anything but "standard superhero" very little humor, the secret identity stuff was treated with the exact same narrative tone and pace as the superhero stuff. The creative team could only do one thing - Traditional superhero stories splattered with slasher movie violence. So what do you like in the history of JSA/All-Star Squadron? I've read a smattering of issue from the first half of Squadron and a couple of the Adventure Comics appearance from the late 1970s. |
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Post by Jesse on Mar 29, 2015 15:06:17 GMT -5
Thoughts on Camelot 3000? I'm a sucker for anything with Bolland art, but does the story hold up too? As a long time Brian Bolland fan myself I would say it is definitely worth checking out for the artwork alone. I think we have a thread about it somewhere We do! classiccomics.boards.net/thread/65/camelot-3000 |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 17:00:30 GMT -5
I am tempted by the Ladronn art in the Cable run by he and James Robinson/Joe Casey (#48-70 I think plus the Flashback issue). I remember reading the Flashback issue and it was my introduction to Ladronn, but was not a fan of Cable or Casey at the time and never read it regularly. Is it worth checking out? Is the Ladronn art the only draw?
-M
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 30, 2015 17:56:25 GMT -5
Counterpoint: It was really, really, really bad. I think I've read... eh, about 75% of all the JSA/All Star Squad/Squadron stories published, and my "Ten Worst" list would all be from this series. Trite characterization, predictable plotting, the same boring structure with a "surprise shock ending" at the end of every issue... plus the tone is just boring. The writers just didn't seem to be able to do anything but "standard superhero" very little humor, the secret identity stuff was treated with the exact same narrative tone and pace as the superhero stuff. The creative team could only do one thing - Traditional superhero stories splattered with slasher movie violence. So what do you like in the history of JSA/All-Star Squadron? I've read a smattering of issue from the first half of Squadron and a couple of the Adventure Comics appearance from the late 1970s. As loathe as I am to acknowledge anything post-Crisis, the Mike Parobeck series from the '90s might be the best of them all. It's a really sly, funny modernization of the original Golden Age Characters that LOOKS Golden Age without the crudity. (Although the original Golden Age JSA Comics could be very well drawn - But you'd have one chapter by Alex Toth and the next chapter would obviously be drawn by a bowery bum they paid in moonshine.) I like All-Star Squadron, but there isn't much that stands out as greater than the rest, and I've never read more than an issue or three at a time. It's all good comics nerd/history nerd-y fun, but maybe a little too concerned with educating the audience about those things to ever really do great character work. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Mar 30, 2015 18:28:33 GMT -5
I am tempted by the Ladronn art in the Cable run by he and James Robinson/Joe Casey (#48-70 I think plus the Flashback issue). I remember reading the Flashback issue and it was my introduction to Ladronn, but was not a fan of Cable or Casey at the time and never read it regularly. Is it worth checking out? Is the Ladronn art the only draw? -M It's good, but it's also Cable, y'know? One of the things I did like was that Casey was putting Cable all over the Marvel Universe, not just the parts generally associated with the X-books. So, he'd end up in Wakanda or battling SHIELD, which lead into Casey's Deathlok series. It was certainly the best X-book while it was running, but it's not like there was a lot of competition.
Also, those issues with Cable vs SHIELD are collected in Deathlok: Rage Against the Machine. That Deathlok series is very underrated, in my opinion, but I'm a sucker for anything Leo Manco illustrates. The only problem is that you have those terrible X-Men issues and annual that lead into the M-Tech books (Deathlok, X-51, and Warlock). That story is borderline unreadable. Don't be fooled by Alan Davis' name in the credits, either-- he's only a plotter, and the books are actually written by Terry Kavanaugh with terrible art.
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Post by fanboystranger on Mar 30, 2015 18:29:54 GMT -5
So what do you like in the history of JSA/All-Star Squadron? I've read a smattering of issue from the first half of Squadron and a couple of the Adventure Comics appearance from the late 1970s. As loathe as I am to acknowledge anything post-Crisis, the Mike Parobeck series from the '90s might be the best of them all. It's a really sly, funny modernization of the original Golden Age Characters that LOOKS Golden Age without the crudity. I like this series, too, mostly for the Parobeck art. Gone too soon. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 18:36:38 GMT -5
the books are actually written by Terry Kavanaugh with terrible art. A pox be upon Terry Kavanaugh fie! (shudders with memories of Kavanaugh's work)  -M |
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Post by fanboystranger on Mar 30, 2015 18:42:16 GMT -5
the books are actually written by Terry Kavanaugh with terrible art. A pox be upon Terry Kavanaugh fie! (shudders with memories of Kavanaughs work) -M Perhaps the worst of Marvel's Assistant Editor writers in the '90s. This story definitely supports the case for that award. |
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Post by Action Ace on Mar 30, 2015 21:03:27 GMT -5
Great until issue 51 (when Geoff Johns was co-writing with David Goyer, plus James Robinson for the first five issues), then tapers off. There's still some great stories afterwards like Black Reign, but it's more hit and mess after that. Honestly, this is when I thought Geoff Johns was the heir to John Ostrander as far as quality writing, but it didn't turn out like that. Definitely recommend JSA 1-51, "Black Reign", and the "Our Worlds at War" Special. Counterpoint: It was really, really, really bad. I think I've read... eh, about 75% of all the JSA/All Star Squad/Squadron stories published, and my "Ten Worst" list would all be from this series. Trite characterization, predictable plotting, the same boring structure with a "surprise shock ending" at the end of every issue... plus the tone is just boring. The writers just didn't seem to be able to do anything but "standard superhero" very little humor, the secret identity stuff was treated with the exact same narrative tone and pace as the superhero stuff. The creative team could only do one thing - Traditional superhero stories splattered with slasher movie violence. I just loathe the whole thing. Addendum A: A lot of people really liked it. Addendum B: I actually thought it got better as it went - There was a cool Gentelman Ghost arc towards the end of the series, then it relaunched from # 1 and picked up immensely. Addendum C: Their was a standalone JLA/JSA graphic novel in the middle of the series, which I thought was great fun. Get that. Addendum D: Also the Hawkman series that spun out of it was pretty great, at least for the first dozen issues. While JSA was overly serious, predictable, and so rooted in the past that it was vigorously anti-creative , Hawkman had six armed elephant men rampaging across the country! Yay Comics! Edit: Addendum E: I did like the Star Spangled Kid - It seemed like she was beamed over from another, competently written, mainstream comic, and the stories picked up immeasurably whenever she was featured. I've read all of the JSA/ All-Star stories published and I think the 1999 JSA series is one of the best. It seems I liked it for mostly the same reasons you didn't. Addendum A: Guilty Addendum B: unlike a lot of people that enjoyed the majority of JSA, I liked the Gentlemen Ghost arc and Justice Society of America as well Addendum C: agreed Addendum D: Hawkman was quite disappointing for me, one of the very very few Johns misfires for me Addendum E: I thought Stars and STRIPE was pretty average and I was a bit worried when Johns replaced Robinson in JSA Addendum F: The Len Strazewski/ Mike Parobeck Justice Society series might be the best of them all |
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Post by Dizzy D on Mar 31, 2015 2:26:57 GMT -5
I am tempted by the Ladronn art in the Cable run by he and James Robinson/Joe Casey (#48-70 I think plus the Flashback issue). I remember reading the Flashback issue and it was my introduction to Ladronn, but was not a fan of Cable or Casey at the time and never read it regularly. Is it worth checking out? Is the Ladronn art the only draw? -M I quite liked it, but then I was a fan of both Casey and Ladronn. They really worked on developing Cable as a character himself. The whole series had more a pulp/action hero vibe than a superhero series. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 31, 2015 22:09:51 GMT -5
I've read all of the JSA/ All-Star stories published and I think the 1999 JSA series is one of the best. It seems I liked it for mostly the same reasons you didn't. Addendum A: Guilty Addendum B: unlike a lot of people that enjoyed the majority of JSA, I liked the Gentlemen Ghost arc and Justice Society of America as well Addendum C: agreed Addendum D: Hawkman was quite disappointing for me, one of the very very few Johns misfires for me Addendum E: I thought Stars and STRIPE was pretty average and I was a bit worried when Johns replaced Robinson in JSA Addendum F: The Len Strazewski/ Mike Parobeck Justice Society series might be the best of them all I just don't get the whole Geoff Johns thing. He turned into a pretty good writer about 5 years ago - Like his new DC stuff is at least making an attempt at humor, much more effectively than his Flash or JSA ever did, but before that I just think he was in the bottom 5% of mainstream comic writers. I generally thought he was good at continuity - Like I agreed with 90% of all his decisions on how to approach characters - but he just seemed like a really limited writer and, quite frankly, kind of dumb. Like his superhero work was only based in old superhero comics, big budget action and low budget horror movies. The writers I like are the dudes who seem to have a more personal stake in what they're writing, and the ones who are willing to synthesize art, science, politics, and literature (and everything else!) into their Captain Boogerman stories.
That's STILL true, but he's improved so much at his craft that I generally enjoy all his current work. I think his JLA is the best the book has been since Mark Waid left, ferinstance. (This is not actually saying much.)
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Post by berkley on Mar 31, 2015 22:35:00 GMT -5
Haven't read much Johns but my impression is much as Reptisaurus describes: a guy who hasn't read much outside of comic books - and a very narrow range of American superhero comics at that. One of these days, if he takes over a series or character that I like, I might give it a try, but from what I've seen of Darkseid, for example, in previews of his JLA series, I don't think he's my kind of writer at all.
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