|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 13:02:18 GMT -5
While I would never suggest THE DUKES OF HAZZARD represents reality, there’s a certain “reality” to it. One can imagine characters like that existing in our world. Which is why it was jarring when an alien showed up during the seventh season! And why did BAYWATCH spin-off BAYWATCH NIGHTS go down the paranormal route? What was that about? One of my favourite franchises is G.I. JOE, particularly the 80s cartoon and the comics. While there’s a lot of artistic licence, and some fantastical exploits, I very much believed in the verisimilitude of it all. It wasn’t impossible to believe that the United States could have a special force featuring characters akin to Snake-Eyes, Hawk, Shipwreck and so many others. Fantastical though it all is, I could very much imagine it representing a world outside my window. Even the likes of Cobra Commander and Destro had a certain “reality” to them. Until Serpentor, that is. Serpentor became the Emperor of COBRA. Destro and Doctor Mindbender had obtained the DNA of history’s greatest conquerors, including Attila the Hun, Napoleon and Caesar. They used the DNA to create a being called Serpentor:  While I did derive some enjoyment from Serpentor - and he’s visually cool - it reached a point in the franchise where I could no longer view G.I. JOE as having verisimilitude. A semi-realistic military action adventure franchise became something that had now dipped a toe into science-fiction. The verisimilitude was gone. I don’t feel too badly about that. Serpentor is a great character. As stated, he looks cool. But I do wonder how things might have been had they not gone down the road - and instead kept the franchise as a semi-realistic military adventure that *could* happen in our world. I can believe the original premise happening in our world; I cannot necessarily suspend disbelief, at least in the same way, when the main villain becomes a being whose DNA was taken from past conquerors - and who really embraced the whole COBRA thing. So, this isn’t a G.I. JOE topic. Thinking about comics you like (any publisher), is there one that you felt was realistic, but then became a different animal once it dipped its toe into sci-fi and/or fantasy? If so, how did you feel about it? Looking forward to positive views, but if there’s a franchise you felt was ruined by the inclusion of fantastical elements, share such thoughts here. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,878
|
Post by shaxper on Jul 30, 2020 13:30:15 GMT -5
Oh, I can't wait for the Jonah Hex discussion...
|
|
|
|
Post by earl on Jul 30, 2020 14:20:01 GMT -5
I've been meaning to track down a set of Hex as I read it back in the 80s and liked it. It is one of those 2000AD type series that DC tried and it was notable that Michael Fleisher wrote it too, so it was by one of the creators.
|
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Jul 30, 2020 15:39:48 GMT -5
The introduction of "action effigies" for the Pod'l Pool Cuties in Beanworld broke the suspension of disbelief for me in reverse, something from our reality in their fantasy universe. As a result I liked it more. Except the part about the backwards talking bean Heyoka, she was just too far-fetched!  |
|
|
|
Post by String on Jul 30, 2020 19:59:09 GMT -5
First off, don't get me started on G.I. Joe the Movie. Ugh......
Second, I still have most of my Hex run. Back then, I started reading Jonah Hex near the end of the run so I really didn't get all that mad over the genre switch especially since, as has been pointed out, Fleisher wrote it.
Third, could this pertain to expectations of certain heroes? For example, Green Lantern, chosen protector of Earth and it's space sector by the universal mysterious Guardians. So, in a way, I expect a chunk of his stories to happen in space. And yet, some of his most popular/classic stories had him hitting the road with his pal Green Arrow on Earth.
|
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Jul 30, 2020 20:15:21 GMT -5
While I would never suggest THE DUKES OF HAZZARD represents reality, there’s a certain “reality” to it. One can imagine characters like that existing in our world. Which is why it was jarring when an alien showed up during the seventh season! And why did BAYWATCH spin-off BAYWATCH NIGHTS go down the paranormal route? What was that about? One of my favourite franchises is G.I. JOE, particularly the 80s cartoon and the comics. While there’s a lot of artistic licence, and some fantastical exploits, I very much believed in the verisimilitude of it all. It wasn’t impossible to believe that the United States could have a special force featuring characters akin to Snake-Eyes, Hawk, Shipwreck and so many others. Fantastical though it all is, I could very much imagine it representing a world outside my window. Even the likes of Cobra Commander and Destro had a certain “reality” to them. Until Serpentor, that is. Serpentor became the Emperor of COBRA. Destro and Doctor Mindbender had obtained the DNA of history’s greatest conquerors, including Attila the Hun, Napoleon and Caesar. They used the DNA to create a being called Serpentor: While I did derive some enjoyment from Serpentor - and he’s visually cool - it reached a point in the franchise where I could no longer view G.I. JOE as having verisimilitude. A semi-realistic military action adventure franchise became something that had now dipped a toe into science-fiction. The verisimilitude was gone. I don’t feel too badly about that. Serpentor is a great character. As stated, he looks cool. But I do wonder how things might have been had they not gone down the road - and instead kept the franchise as a semi-realistic military adventure that *could* happen in our world. I can believe the original premise happening in our world; I cannot necessarily suspend disbelief, at least in the same way, when the main villain becomes a being whose DNA was taken from past conquerors - and who really embraced the whole COBRA thing. So, this isn’t a G.I. JOE topic. Thinking about comics you like (any publisher), is there one that you felt was realistic, but then became a different animal once it dipped its toe into sci-fi and/or fantasy? If so, how did you feel about it? Looking forward to positive views, but if there’s a franchise you felt was ruined by the inclusion of fantastical elements, share such thoughts here. I have trouble ascribing a reality to GO JOE, since no one ever died. I grew up with Jonny Quest and people died left in right in that thing and we didn't run amok in the streets, shooting at people, saying we were trying to kill the invisible monster or a robot spider! Sci-fi can work in other genres, if you provide a logic to things. Fantastical characters slide into it more easily; but, even Batman treads the borderlands of sci-fi and is chummy with aliens, in the Justice League. It's all in how you handle it. Alfred Bester inserted psychic abilities into a crime story and made it work, giving us the Demolished Man, which influenced the Psi Corps, in Babylon 5. However, he didn't push much else that was out of the ordinary in the story. Sci-fi was there to provide a hook: how can you murder someone in a world with psychic detectives? That's what occurs and the detective has to figure out how it could happen. Too many bad and mediocre writers use sci-fi as an easy out, because they can't be bothered. Their stories rarely work well. |
|
|
|
Post by spoon on Jul 30, 2020 21:53:13 GMT -5
Daredevil tends more toward realism, but sometimes the stories go off that path. There was the stint in the early 1970s with Moondragon and I think maybe some other sci-fi character. I don't remember whether Death Stalker's origin ended up being supernatural, but he seemed both a very compelling threat but also atypical fit for the book. I actually like the part of the Nocenti era that brought in villains like Mephisto, Blackheart, and Ultron more than a thought I would. My problem with it is that it went on for quite a while. It feels like a waste to go for long stretches without Daredevil in street level action. And I think the supporting cast was written out for a while.
|
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 31, 2020 7:14:04 GMT -5
Dreadstar had such a moment, but obviously not because of the introduction of SF or fantasy concepts... more like the introduction of comic-booky concepts.
When it started as Metamorphosis Odyssey, the story was straight space opera, treated in a serious manner. Vanth Dreadstar himself was a secondary character.
Then came The Choice, which was more of a mix of Orwell and Lovecraft, but was also pretty serious; the kind of story where people talk a lot, and where events at large were much, much larger than the individual characters.
After that we got the Dreadstar graphic novel, which was back into serious science-fiction territory, with political and religious overtones. Again, events were larger than the characters; it was as if we were following Private Smith and the impact WWII had on his life.
For the first few issues of the comic, the same approach was used; something like the government nuking one of its cities was a big deal, and something our heroes couldn't stop. But little by little, the universe grew smaller and smaller... Dreadstar got to be on a first name basis with the leader of the two major opposing factions, and what had been distant and threatening political figures were demoted to being supervillains.
Vanth himself got superpowers and started flying around. Plus he started dressing in tight-fitting speedskater duds. With a logo, no less.
The comic remained entertaining, but it was clearly no longer a SF novel in graphic form; it was a comic-book with superheroes in space. It felt a lot less "real".
|
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 31, 2020 7:50:37 GMT -5
By the time Starlin stopped writing it, I agree Dreadstar was just another superhero comic book. But even in the latter issues under his pen it started turning that way. It almost the Bizzaro version of this thread's OP.
|
|
|
|
Post by mikelmidnight on Jul 31, 2020 12:52:42 GMT -5
Dreadstar had such a moment, but obviously not because of the introduction of SF or fantasy concepts... more like the introduction of comic-booky concepts. When it started as Metamorphosis Odyssey, the story was straight space opera, treated in a serious manner. Vanth Dreadstar himself was a secondary character. Then came The Choice, which was more of a mix of Orwell and Lovecraft, but was also pretty serious; the kind of story where people talk a lot, and where events at large were much, much larger than the individual characters. After that we got the Dreadstar graphic novel, which was back into serious science-fiction territory, with political and religious overtones. Again, events were larger than the characters; it was as if we were following Private Smith and the impact WWII had on his life. For the first few issues of the comic, the same approach was used; something like the government nuking one of its cities was a big deal, and something our heroes couldn't stop. But little by little, the universe grew smaller and smaller... Dreadstar got to be on a first name basis with the leader of the two major opposing factions, and what had been distant and threatening political figures were demoted to being supervillains.
I liked pretty much all the lead-ins to the Dreadstar comic, but not the comic itself, for pretty much the reasons you give.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Jul 31, 2020 13:42:17 GMT -5
How about when Doctor Strange started wearing a full-face mask a la Dr. Fate? Strikeforce: Morituri underwent a severe retooling when James Hudnall took over writing from Peter Gillis. The original premise was about disposable super-soldiers (prone not just to die in battle but to unpredictably explode) fighting alien barbarians wielding tech they didn't really understand. Hudnall used the "disposable" part to clear the board of all previous characters, then told a totally different story about his own super-soldier characters fighting a totally different and much more hi-tech alien invasion that superceded the first one. Gillis' premise was a lot more interesting, though it's not clear that he knew where it was going, beyond the need to spin out a monthly story. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2020 15:39:51 GMT -5
As usual, you people didn’t let me down with your responses!
Everyone’s mileage varies. I mean, THE SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN had a certain “reality” to it, but I was totally on board with Bigfoot and the aliens showing up. But when a cyborg showed up in AIRWOLF, which seemed very “real” at times, I didn’t appreciate it.
And I was pissed off when an alien showed up in POLICE ACADEMY: THE SERIES.
|
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Jul 31, 2020 16:07:55 GMT -5
That Alien cross-over in Sooty sort of intruded on the usual whimsy and frivolity I felt...  Sorry taxi.  It's a good topic, I'm just in a strange mood. |
|
|
|
Post by brutalis on Jul 31, 2020 16:54:58 GMT -5
How about the reverse for when reality intrudes upon sci-fi/fantasy? Like watching things of the past utilizing modern speech or slang? Current "trends" or concepts put into times or places where they wouldn't be known or even exist? Rules/concepts is one where the only rules should be those which are necessary for the movie as long as those "rules" are followed within context of the movie.
Example being the Six Million Dollar man as realistically there is no way to creating a functionally nuclear powered cybernetic form that would function without tearing a human body to pieces. Dont need reality to ruin the fun and excitement of the idea. Or how do Apes become the dominant species as man reverts to Caveman? I dont need to have all the details to perfectly line up with scientific exposition. Realistically there is no way a horse could ever really become domesticated by gorilla's and ridden.
Don't tear apart a fun concept just to try and force it into following the rules. You only take away the joyous thrill of it all.
|
|
|
|
Post by tartanphantom on Jul 31, 2020 17:21:42 GMT -5
While I would never suggest THE DUKES OF HAZZARD represents reality, there’s a certain “reality” to it. One can imagine characters like that existing in our world. Which is why it was jarring when an alien showed up during the seventh season! Until Serpentor, that is. Serpentor became the Emperor of COBRA. Destro and Doctor Mindbender had obtained the DNA of history’s greatest conquerors, including Attila the Hun, Napoleon and Caesar. They used the DNA to create a being called Serpentor: I am a native of the Deep South, and I've lived well below the Mason-Dixon line for 54 of my 57 years of existence. I promise you, my first-hand life experience tells me that Dukes of Hazzard is way more grounded in reality than Serpentor... Down here, there's a Rosco P. Coltrane and Boss Hogg in every small town. But I have yet to meet a real live Serpentor.
Except when I briefly lived in New Jersey.  |
|
It's a good topic, I'm just in a strange mood.
