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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 22, 2014 6:12:32 GMT -5
I didn't much care for Civil War either, and on top of presenting a contrived story where characters do very strange things for obscure reasons, it killed a lot of them just so it would appear to " matter". (Naturally, most of these dead characters then had to come back in other series, thanks to a multitude of common-sense-adverse explanations).
With event series like Civil War, after which "nothing will eve be the same again", publishers are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Because nobody wants things never to be the same again! The continuing adventures of characters created many decades ago practically run on nostalgia! Upsetting the boat from time to time keeps things interesting, but there are some lines that one cannot cross if you intend to restore the status quo one day.
That's why I think that Ultimates and Ultimates 2, just about the only works by Mark Millar that I enjoyed, are far superior to things like Civil War: not being bound by the need to restore a status quo, they could have cataclysmic plot twists that didn't need to be undone eventually.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 22, 2014 6:16:52 GMT -5
I enjoyed the mini series. I accepted that people would act differently just because each side was convinced they were right. As far as the art, it was top level with Mcniven. The characterization was what you would see when the good guys get vicious. It was ugly just like any civil war is ugly. It was flawed only in that, in the Marvel world, vigilantes are allowed to do what they want. The mini just spotlighted that vigilantes really can't work in the real world.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,197 
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Post by Confessor on Oct 22, 2014 7:38:10 GMT -5
I liked Civil War a lot. ...and I mean a LOT. I thought Mark Millar's scripting was very good and at times excellent, while Steve McNiven's somewhat photo-realistic art was a treat for the eyes. I have the entire thing -- the 7 issues of the main series and all the tie-ins -- in my collection (with the exception of 3 or 4 issues of Ghost Rider that bore the "Civil War" banner, but had bugger all to do with the main event really). For me, Civil War was the most enjoyable big "event" type thing that Marvel had done since Secret Wars -- although the moral and sociological issues that Civil War offered up for consideration, were much more intellectually stimulating that the big, dumb fun of Secret Wars. Regardless of your thoughts on Marvel events old or new though, I would suggest that Civil War was head and shoulders above any of the subsequent Marvel events that we've had to endure since, like Secret Invasion, Original Sin or the diabolically bad Fear Itself. I found it a very gripping story. I loved seeing the status quo of the Marvel Universe being turned upside down and inside out, and the resulting turmoil (and how it touched all our favourite Marvel characters) made for compelling reading. The conflict and strain that the superhero civil war caused between even the closest of allies (see Sue and Reed Richards for an example) made for excellent, "ooh, what will happen?" reading. Also, I don't really see any of the out of character writing that others in this thread have pointed to as reasons to avoid the story; I thought that by and large, the series had some very believable characterisation of the core characters. I'd argue that the characters were pushed to act out of character on occasion precisely because of the enormity of what was happening to their superhero community. Even the big "unmasking event" (I don't want to spoil this for the OP), while definitely out of character under normal circumstances, was made to seem very believable and even logical within the context of the wider civil war. Having said all that, I do have to sort of agree with pharozonk, when he says... The damage that it ultimately did to the Spider-man franchise ended my interest in the character. Yep... *sigh*...Spider-Man comics haven't really ever been the same since Civil War. Given the underlying message of Civil war is 'anyone who disagrees with the US government should be locked up in a prison camp without trial', and (according to the author) we are supposed to agree with this position, I would say avoid this like the plague. That's a little unfair, I'd say (irrespective of the author's own thoughts on the subject). I think it's a fairly even handed narrative from either side of the debate. A better interpretation of the storyline might be "altruistic actions, perpetrated by potentially destructive forces vs. 21st century society's demand for culpability and security". |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 22, 2014 10:07:39 GMT -5
The whole premise is flawed because people fail to acknowledge that the psychology of these mainstream superhero worlds, for all their similarities, are NOT the same as our own on some deep levels. Under no circumstance would a police commissioner openly support a vigilante, a team of superhumans be allowed to function with no government oversight, etc. So, after years and years of accepting a unique set of rules specific to the superhero genre, we're to buy that one destroyed school was the last straw and real world psychology and ideology is in play? Whole towns have been destroyed by rampaging monsters, the Hulk, various other villains, etc. It just doesn't work for me.
The whole thing springs from Quesada's wish to turn Marvel's mainstream comics into versions of Watchmen and DKR's. The problem is that those were actual works of art -- finite and able to exist in a vacuum where such stories can flourish -- while all Quesada and crew seem to understand are the most superficial aspects of said works.
There have been three "events" that I actually enjoyed from Marvel: Thanos Quest/Infinity Gauntlet, Annihilation and Planet Hulk. I rank the Infinity Gauntlet story as the best because Starlin did some great character work on Thanos and Adam Warlock, elevating it above the standard fair.
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Civil War
Oct 22, 2014 10:25:18 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 10:25:18 GMT -5
Annihilation (and the subequent war of Kings) were excellent, but again, if you consider it ended up giving us Sam Alexander and Bendis' GotG, it takes a hit. Why would you judge War of Kings on a series that came out four years later? |
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Post by fanboystranger on Oct 22, 2014 10:54:09 GMT -5
Annihilation is the best event comic that Marvel has ever done, and we got three years of excellent cosmic stories from it.
I love Planet Hulk itself, but the follow-up crossover, World War Hulk, was a massive disappointment for me. This was a story that needed to be told, but it really dropped the ball, despite some cool moments like Dr Strange invoking Zom. DC's version of this would be Blackest Night, which completely squandered all the momentum that had been building from the very good Sinestro Corps War.
At least World War Hulk gave us the Incredible Hercules series. That is true. Incredible Herc was the best series that Marvel was publishing for a few years afterwards. Those Incredible Hulk issues focused on the old Champions line-up were the best part of WWH, too. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 22, 2014 11:02:26 GMT -5
It still baffles me to no end why someone would want to read a Bendis Guardians of the Galaxy over Abbnet and Lanning. Maybe A&L didn't want to do any more, but it's my understanding that GotG wasn't selling like Bendis' current run...which is universally considered to be mediocre in all the reviews I've read. This must be Bendis' version of the "faithful 50,000" at play.
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Post by fanboystranger on Oct 22, 2014 11:03:29 GMT -5
Annihilation (and the subequent war of Kings) were excellent, but again, if you consider it ended up giving us Sam Alexander and Bendis' GotG, it takes a hit. See, I feel that the new Nova and the Bendis GotG are completely out of step with what Abnett and Lanning were doing with their cosmic books. They almost seem to exist in spite of them. For example, there was no explanation of how Starlord was around after The Thanos Imperative until Original Sin, which suggested to me that the DnA stuff was essentially being ignored. (Not to mention Thanos in Infinity, but I have an easier time accepting Thanos escaping the Cancer-verse under his own power.) I have no real problem with Sam Alexander-- in fact, despite not liking Jeph Loeb's work in general, I found it kinda touching that he was making a tribute character to his late son to work through his grief-- but the execution has been sorely lacking, especially when compared to DnA's Nova series.
At least we have Guardians 3000.
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Post by fanboystranger on Oct 22, 2014 11:07:23 GMT -5
It still baffles me to no end why someone would want to read a Bendis Guardians of the Galaxy over Abbnet and Lanning. Maybe A&L didn't want to do any more, but it's my understanding that GotG wasn't selling like Bendis' current run...which is universally considered to be mediocre in all the reviews I've read. This must be Bendis' version of the "faithful 50,000" at play. It's mostly based on sales. Also, Abnett and Lanning ended their professional relationship about two years ago for personal reasons.
Abnett is actually writing Guardians 3000 right now, and the first issue was quite good-- it seems like any other cliched superhero comic for the first half of the first issue, then there's a wicked twist in the second that makes it something else entirely. I'd recommend picking it up if you want a good cosmic title.
Lanning actually did quite well with the Marvel UK event Revolutionary War. I'd recommend that, too.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 22, 2014 11:23:10 GMT -5
It still baffles me to no end why someone would want to read a Bendis Guardians of the Galaxy over Abbnet and Lanning. Maybe A&L didn't want to do any more, but it's my understanding that GotG wasn't selling like Bendis' current run...which is universally considered to be mediocre in all the reviews I've read. This must be Bendis' version of the "faithful 50,000" at play. I don't think it's people enjoying it over Abbnet and Lanning, there's just nothing that suggests that it's an either/or situation. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 22, 2014 11:32:40 GMT -5
It still baffles me to no end why someone would want to read a Bendis Guardians of the Galaxy over Abbnet and Lanning. Maybe A&L didn't want to do any more, but it's my understanding that GotG wasn't selling like Bendis' current run...which is universally considered to be mediocre in all the reviews I've read. This must be Bendis' version of the "faithful 50,000" at play. It's mostly based on sales. Also, Abnett and Lanning ended their professional relationship about two years ago for personal reasons.
Abnett is actually writing Guardians 3000 right now, and the first issue was quite good-- it seems like any other cliched superhero comic for the first half of the first issue, then there's a wicked twist in the second that makes it something else entirely. I'd recommend picking it up if you want a good cosmic title.
Lanning actually did quite well with the Marvel UK event Revolutionary War. I'd recommend that, too.
Well if Starlin isn't writing much anymore, and Abnett & Lanning are separated, Marvel's cosmic characters are f___d in the hands of anyone else. (Not that either aren't possibly good on their own, as I read Embedded by Abnett and I enjoyed it as a great science fiction novel.) |
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 22, 2014 12:07:17 GMT -5
It's mostly based on sales. Also, Abnett and Lanning ended their professional relationship about two years ago for personal reasons.
Abnett is actually writing Guardians 3000 right now, and the first issue was quite good-- it seems like any other cliched superhero comic for the first half of the first issue, then there's a wicked twist in the second that makes it something else entirely. I'd recommend picking it up if you want a good cosmic title.
Lanning actually did quite well with the Marvel UK event Revolutionary War. I'd recommend that, too.
Well if Starlin isn't writing much anymore, and Abnett & Lanning are separated, Marvel's cosmic characters are f___d in the hands of anyone else. (Not that either aren't possibly good on their own, as I read Embedded by Abnett and I enjoyed it as a great science fiction novel.) Starlin is back. He did a really nice Thanos Revelation Graphic Novel a month ago. He has other projects in the hopper for Marvel. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 22, 2014 12:21:08 GMT -5
Well if Starlin isn't writing much anymore, and Abnett & Lanning are separated, Marvel's cosmic characters are f___d in the hands of anyone else. (Not that either aren't possibly good on their own, as I read Embedded by Abnett and I enjoyed it as a great science fiction novel.) Starlin is back. He did a really nice Thanos Revelation Graphic Novel a month ago. He has other projects in the hopper for Marvel. I'll check it out, that's good news to hear indeed. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Oct 22, 2014 13:06:40 GMT -5
It's mostly based on sales. Also, Abnett and Lanning ended their professional relationship about two years ago for personal reasons.
Abnett is actually writing Guardians 3000 right now, and the first issue was quite good-- it seems like any other cliched superhero comic for the first half of the first issue, then there's a wicked twist in the second that makes it something else entirely. I'd recommend picking it up if you want a good cosmic title.
Lanning actually did quite well with the Marvel UK event Revolutionary War. I'd recommend that, too.
Well if Starlin isn't writing much anymore, and Abnett & Lanning are separated, Marvel's cosmic characters are f___d in the hands of anyone else. (Not that either aren't possibly good on their own, as I read Embedded by Abnett and I enjoyed it as a great science fiction novel.) Abnett's excellent on his own, and sci-fi is his specialty. His Durham Red stories from 2000AD took a semi-cheesecake character and gave her an epic space opera filled with wild concepts. Some of 2000AD's best stuff.
And, as I mentioned before, Abnett is writing Guardians 3000 for Marvel at the moment. The first issue was great.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 13:24:07 GMT -5
How much sense will the Civil War branded issues of Ms Marvel make if I don't read the rest of Civil War? I know that publishers can be pretty lenient with their labeling of books as tie-ins, but the end of #5 made it seem like she plays a significant role.
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