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Post by berkley on Nov 16, 2014 23:16:31 GMT -5
He also did the Big Sleep as well, albeit much later in his career in 1978, he also played Marlowe in 1975's Farewell, My Lovely. Farewell, My Lovely is a pretty decent film. The latter-day Big Sleep...Not so much. As much as I love Mitchum...and I do...he's not a good choice to play Marlowe. This is counted sacrilege in some circles, but I don't think Bogart was a great choice to play Marlowe either. Not that The Big Sleep isn't a great film in its own right, but I don't think it's a great adaptation of the book, and the casting of Bogart as Marlowe is part of the reason for that feeling. In contrast, I think he was a good choice to play Spade in The Maltese Falcon, even though he didn't fit Hammet's physical desciption of the tall (IIRC) blonde-haired Spade, because there was a certain element of callousness and ruthlessness to Spade that Bogart's screen presence lent itself to. Marlowe's a different sort of character, and the match-up with Bogart wasn't a good one, for me. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 17, 2014 10:30:36 GMT -5
Regarding the death of the chauffer: It's not a plot hole. Just because it's not clear who did it, that doesn't make it a plot hole. It's just an element that wasn't fully spelled out. And it's one of the compelling aspects of Chandler's work. Marlowe's world is complicated and messy. By the time it's all over with, it doesn't matter what happened to the chauffer. (Partly because all the people who might have done it are dead. So why knock yourself out filling out all the blanks?) Owen Taylor was caught in a trap that nobody in particular had laid for him, and he was in way over his head. I used to think that the guy who killed Brodie was the one who killed the chauffer. But then I noticed the guy hanging out with Brodie in the shop after Geiger was killed, and my theory didn't really make sense any more. And I don't think Brodie did it. But now I don't know what happened. It's a mystery. And a good reason to read the book again and then see the movie one more time. It works out as an element that makes Marlowe's world messy and complicated but I think that's largely unintentional. To me, it's always felt like a lot of the other plot holes which came to be from the way Chandler created the Big Sleep by cobbling together various other pulp stories he had previously written. I can't remember the titles of the short stories he used to make the Big Sleep right off the top of my head, but their plots weren't very similar and they didn't share any characters, not even Marlowe, so when they were stitched together a character or plot element that was important in one part may never be mentioned again in the latter parts. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 17, 2014 11:54:51 GMT -5
Farewell, My Lovely is a pretty decent film. The latter-day Big Sleep...Not so much. As much as I love Mitchum...and I do...he's not a good choice to play Marlowe. Gee, I thought he was quite good in Farewell. Why didn't you like him as Marlowe, Slam? I like the Bogey version, too, despite the fact that apparently both the novel and the screenplay have truck-sized plotholes. Number one, Mitchum was about 25 years too old to be Marlowe. And he looked it. Marlowe was in his 30s. Mitchum was a fairly old looking 58 when he made Farewell. And while Mitchum was great at the world-weary cynicism there was an urbanity to Marlowe that I don't think he really captured. Marlowe would spend his spare time playing chess against himself from games out of books. And he read poetry. I just can't see Mitchum and his Marlowe doing that. Admittedly it's been probably two decades since I've seen either Mitchum Marlowe movie. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 17, 2014 12:19:07 GMT -5
As to the "plot hole" in The Big Sleep, I essentially agree with Hoosier (this may be the first time that's ever happened). It's not really a plot hole. It just doesn't matter who killed Taylor. The event precipitates the action, but it really ultimately doesn't matter who killed him, so it's not really a plot hole. Crimes remain unsolved all the time. Does that mean life is just one plot-hole.
Not to mention that we only have Brody's say-so that he sapped and then left Taylor alive. Brody could easily be lying.
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Post by coke & comics on Nov 17, 2014 12:48:41 GMT -5
My life is full of plot holes.
And characters with indecipherable motivations.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 17, 2014 15:59:26 GMT -5
Gee, I thought he was quite good in Farewell. Why didn't you like him as Marlowe, Slam? I like the Bogey version, too, despite the fact that apparently both the novel and the screenplay have truck-sized plotholes. Number one, Mitchum was about 25 years too old to be Marlowe. And he looked it. Marlowe was in his 30s. Mitchum was a fairly old looking 58 when he made Farewell. And while Mitchum was great at the world-weary cynicism there was an urbanity to Marlowe that I don't think he really captured. Marlowe would spend his spare time playing chess against himself from games out of books. And he read poetry. I just can't see Mitchum and his Marlowe doing that. Admittedly it's been probably two decades since I've seen either Mitchum Marlowe movie. Points well taken. I think I was probably taken with his "Mitchum-ness" and all the noir conventions (cliches?) that the movie played up so well. Still, despite his age, I looked his portrayal of an older Marlowe. It's been awhile for me, too, since seeing either one, though I wouldn't want to see The Big Sleep again. Jimmy Stewart as General Sternwood? Really? He couldn't be the kind of guy who should leave you feeling a little squeamish and Stewart really couldn't capture that decadent quality. Or at least they changed the part so he couldn't be that way. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 17, 2014 16:08:11 GMT -5
Number one, Mitchum was about 25 years too old to be Marlowe. And he looked it. Marlowe was in his 30s. Mitchum was a fairly old looking 58 when he made Farewell. And while Mitchum was great at the world-weary cynicism there was an urbanity to Marlowe that I don't think he really captured. Marlowe would spend his spare time playing chess against himself from games out of books. And he read poetry. I just can't see Mitchum and his Marlowe doing that. Admittedly it's been probably two decades since I've seen either Mitchum Marlowe movie. Points well taken. I think I was probably taken with his "Mitchum-ness" and all the noir conventions (cliches?) that the movie played up so well. Still, despite his age, I looked his portrayal of an older Marlowe. It's been awhile for me, too, since seeing either one, though I wouldn't want to see The Big Sleep again. Jimmy Stewart as General Sternwood? Really? He couldn't be the kind of guy who should leave you feeling a little squeamish and Stewart really couldn't capture that decadent quality. Or at least they changed the part so he couldn't be that way. From what I've read Stewart was physically unwell while he was making The Big Sleep. He had issues remember and saying his lines and hearing what was going on. It definitely translated onto film. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 17, 2014 16:29:05 GMT -5
Points well taken. I think I was probably taken with his "Mitchum-ness" and all the noir conventions (cliches?) that the movie played up so well. Still, despite his age, I looked his portrayal of an older Marlowe. It's been awhile for me, too, since seeing either one, though I wouldn't want to see The Big Sleep again. Jimmy Stewart as General Sternwood? Really? He couldn't be the kind of guy who should leave you feeling a little squeamish and Stewart really couldn't capture that decadent quality. Or at least they changed the part so he couldn't be that way. From what I've read Stewart was physically unwell while he was making The Big Sleep. He had issues remember and saying his lines and hearing what was going on. It definitely translated onto film. Sad. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 17, 2014 19:18:16 GMT -5
As to the "plot hole" in The Big Sleep, I essentially agree with Hoosier (this may be the first time that's ever happened). It's not really a plot hole. It just doesn't matter who killed Taylor. The event precipitates the action, but it really ultimately doesn't matter who killed him, so it's not really a plot hole. Crimes remain unsolved all the time. Does that mean life is just one plot-hole. Not to mention that we only have Brody's say-so that he sapped and then left Taylor alive. Brody could easily be lying. Do we disagree that much? The only thing I can think of is that you're much more critical of the dumb stuff in the 1961 to 1963 Marvel stories. I know a lot of it is stupid stupid STUPID, but I'm a lot more likely to find it charming and/or HI-LARIOUS!
I think my favorite stupid but HI-LARIOUS moment is Namor exhibiting the powers of a puffer fish in Strange Tales #107! How can you be critical of that? It's like making fun of a four-year-old's crayon drawing of his mother with a puppy.
Re: Marlowe
I'm thinking of writing a short story where a cute blonde from Minnesota walks into Marlowe's office and wants to hire him to find out what happened her older brother. She's heard several different stories. He was apparently involved in a scandal that was hushed up. But he was either murdered or he killed himself. He was a chauffer for the Sternwoods. His name was Owen Taylor.
One line of dialogue from Marlowe: "I checked with one of my contacts, a guy named Chandler. He was no help at all."
As I typed that, I could hear the voice of the guy who played Marlowe on the old radio show. "Get this and get it straight! Crime is a sucker's road and those who travel it end up in the gutter, the prison or an early grave ..."
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 17, 2014 20:43:11 GMT -5
I will add that probably the oddest person to play Marlowe is Danny Glover. And apparently it was good. I'd dearly love to see that.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 17, 2014 20:50:00 GMT -5
I will add that probably the oddest person to play Marlowe is Danny Glover. And apparently it was good. I'd dearly love to see that. Yikes. Never heard of that one, but would like to check it out. Speaking of other marl owes, I did not care for the Elliot Gould version directed by Robert Altman. To me, Marlowe operating in 1970s LA did not fit at all. Which may have been the point, it if it was, it left me cold. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 17, 2014 20:58:29 GMT -5
I will add that probably the oddest person to play Marlowe is Danny Glover. And apparently it was good. I'd dearly love to see that. Yikes. Never heard of that one, but would like to check it out. Speaking of other marl owes, I did not care for the Elliot Gould version directed by Robert Altman. To me, Marlowe operating in 1970s LA did not fit at all. Which may have been the point, it if it was, it left me cold. It was in an episode of the Showtime series "Fallen Angels". It ran in 1993 and 95. It's never been released on DVD or video. Bootlegs are very expensive. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 18, 2014 12:42:46 GMT -5
I thought about the "who killed the chauffer" short story last night, and I came up with a theory based on what I remember from the movie version (which I saw two months ago) and I came up with a working title: A New Place to Drive.
Now I need to get The Big Sleep (the novel) from the library. I've read it two or three times, the last time was about five years ago. I think the book has a segment where somebody asks Marlowe who killed the chauffer and he puts forth a theory (which I don't remember right offhand) but I don't think he says anything about how he came to that conclusion.
There's a great discussion of the chauffer's death on the message boards of the IMDB entry for "The Big Sleep."
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Post by berkley on Nov 18, 2014 18:32:33 GMT -5
I love the Altman Long Goodbye , but once again, it's its own thing, not really a faithful adaptation of Chandler's book. I even like Gould's performance, but of course he isn't Chandler's Marlowe at all.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 18, 2014 20:26:36 GMT -5
As to the "plot hole" in The Big Sleep, I essentially agree with Hoosier (this may be the first time that's ever happened). It's not really a plot hole. It just doesn't matter who killed Taylor. The event precipitates the action, but it really ultimately doesn't matter who killed him, so it's not really a plot hole. Crimes remain unsolved all the time. Does that mean life is just one plot-hole. Not to mention that we only have Brody's say-so that he sapped and then left Taylor alive. Brody could easily be lying. Do we disagree that much? The only thing I can think of is that you're much more critical of the dumb stuff in the 1961 to 1963 Marvel stories. I know a lot of it is stupid stupid STUPID, but I'm a lot more likely to find it charming and/or HI-LARIOUS!
I think my favorite stupid but HI-LARIOUS moment is Namor exhibiting the powers of a puffer fish in Strange Tales #107! How can you be critical of that? It's like making fun of a four-year-old's crayon drawing of his mother with a puppy.
Re: Marlowe
I'm thinking of writing a short story where a cute blonde from Minnesota walks into Marlowe's office and wants to hire him to find out what happened her older brother. She's heard several different stories. He was apparently involved in a scandal that was hushed up. But he was either murdered or he killed himself. He was a chauffer for the Sternwoods. His name was Owen Taylor.
One line of dialogue from Marlowe: "I checked with one of my contacts, a guy named Chandler. He was no help at all."
As I typed that, I could hear the voice of the guy who played Marlowe on the old radio show. "Get this and get it straight! Crime is a sucker's road and those who travel it end up in the gutter, the prison or an early grave ..."
I would love to read that! I will add that probably the oddest person to play Marlowe is Danny Glover. And apparently it was good. I'd dearly love to see that. I can actually see Danny Glover being a fantastic Marlowe, he has that fantastic deep voice and he has a pretty big presence. I will add that probably the oddest person to play Marlowe is Danny Glover. And apparently it was good. I'd dearly love to see that. Yikes. Never heard of that one, but would like to check it out. Speaking of other marl owes, I did not care for the Elliot Gould version directed by Robert Altman. To me, Marlowe operating in 1970s LA did not fit at all. Which may have been the point, it if it was, it left me cold. See, I absolutely loved Gould as Marlowe. That opening scene where he feeds his cat? Though it never appeared in any of the novels that was pure Marlowe to me. |
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