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Post by Randle-El on Jan 21, 2022 15:24:16 GMT -5
I'm definitely not denying it's been done, it just doesn't seem like something done every single time which is what habitual implies to me. Probably splitting hairs. If the word "habitual" is problematic for you, then feel free to disregard. My larger point was that it's done often enough that it's a noticeable pattern, and doesn't necessarily have to be every single time. Connecting back to my original post, there seems to be a similar type of pattern in fiction with people who suffer from mental illness. There are few instances where these individuals are portrayed in a positive light, and more often than not they are portrayed as villains. Historically, people who suffered from mental illness were pretty marginalized and few were willing to advocate for them. But these days there is a greater awareness of these issues, and people are more willing to talk openly about their own struggles. If it goes anything like the way it has for the LGBT community or ethnic minorities, the "lunatic killer" as a stock character may be on borrowed time. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 21, 2022 18:39:26 GMT -5
I haven't liked Moon Knight's direction ever since Houston's run and it seems the show mostly takes from the stories from and preceding that run, which all haven't been that great IMO. It certainly seems to lean heavily on the Warren Ellis/ Jeff Lemire runs I don't think that precludes elements from other runs to be incorporated later on; for instance I think Doug Moench and Tommy Edwards "Resurrection Wars" storyline could be a fantastic second season(a guy can wish!). |
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Post by Batflunkie on Jan 21, 2022 20:13:51 GMT -5
Kind of wish that they had taken the pulpy 70's route, but I don't think that was ever going to happen. Does look good though I haven't liked Moon Knight's direction ever since Houston's run and it seems the show mostly takes from the stories from and preceding that run, which all haven't been that great IMO. Ellis, Lemire, Bemis, and even the current run by Mackay have all been excellent in some way or another. I wish that Ellis' run was better collected seeing as how it helped to revitalize the character, but circumstances being what they are, I can kind of understand why |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 23, 2022 15:08:44 GMT -5
I've seen a lot of talk about what people hope they see in the show, but what appears to not be in this take seems to be more interesting to me. For one, I'm really glad that Marlene seems to be absent, as much as I love the classic stories and as much as I loved seeing those images of her parading around in night gowns and bikinis when I was growing up...I got a little skeeved out reading them last week as that's literally all she's there for; to patch up Marc when he comes home, have sex with him and admonish him for his activities, she has no real self motivation or agency at all.
You could fix that in a modern take, make her a smart strong willed woman who helps with his investigations; maybe make her a SHIELD agent trying to make sure he doesn't go too far off the reservation...but part of me thinks it would be better if she just vanished all together.
I'm also okay with Frenchie going away too, he wasn't problematic but he didn't add much either.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 23, 2022 20:58:20 GMT -5
I've seen a lot of talk about what people hope they see in the show, but what appears to not be in this take seems to be more interesting to me. For one, I'm really glad that Marlene seems to be absent, as much as I love the classic stories and as much as I loved seeing those images of her parading around in night gowns and bikinis when I was growing up...I got a little skeeved out reading them last week as that's literally all she's there for; to patch up Marc when he comes home, have sex with him and admonish him for his activities, she has no real self motivation or agency at all. You could fix that in a modern take, make her a smart strong willed woman who helps with his investigations; maybe make her a SHIELD agent trying to make sure he doesn't go too far off the reservation...but part of me thinks it would be better if she just vanished all together. I'm also okay with Frenchie going away too, he wasn't problematic but he didn't add much either. WHAT??? I tek dip offense at zis, my frend! Frenchie added wissout a doubt a certan gallic je ne sais quoi wissout which Moon Kenight is but a pale imitation of a certen darknight détective from Gottam sity!  |
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Post by berkley on Jan 23, 2022 22:40:42 GMT -5
I've seen a lot of talk about what people hope they see in the show, but what appears to not be in this take seems to be more interesting to me. For one, I'm really glad that Marlene seems to be absent, as much as I love the classic stories and as much as I loved seeing those images of her parading around in night gowns and bikinis when I was growing up...I got a little skeeved out reading them last week as that's literally all she's there for; to patch up Marc when he comes home, have sex with him and admonish him for his activities, she has no real self motivation or agency at all. You could fix that in a modern take, make her a smart strong willed woman who helps with his investigations; maybe make her a SHIELD agent trying to make sure he doesn't go too far off the reservation...but part of me thinks it would be better if she just vanished all together. I'm also okay with Frenchie going away too, he wasn't problematic but he didn't add much either.
I thought that might have been Marlene on the phone in the trailer.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 24, 2022 6:33:59 GMT -5
I've seen a lot of talk about what people hope they see in the show, but what appears to not be in this take seems to be more interesting to me. For one, I'm really glad that Marlene seems to be absent, as much as I love the classic stories and as much as I loved seeing those images of her parading around in night gowns and bikinis when I was growing up...I got a little skeeved out reading them last week as that's literally all she's there for; to patch up Marc when he comes home, have sex with him and admonish him for his activities, she has no real self motivation or agency at all. You could fix that in a modern take, make her a smart strong willed woman who helps with his investigations; maybe make her a SHIELD agent trying to make sure he doesn't go too far off the reservation...but part of me thinks it would be better if she just vanished all together. I'm also okay with Frenchie going away too, he wasn't problematic but he didn't add much either. WHAT??? I tek dip offense at zis, my frend! Frenchie added wissout a doubt a certan gallic je ne sais quoi wissout which Moon Kenight is but a pale imitation of a certen darknight détective from Gottam sity!  See, he's one of those elements that makes Moon Knight feel more like Batman to me, except instead of being British he's French. I've seen a lot of talk about what people hope they see in the show, but what appears to not be in this take seems to be more interesting to me. For one, I'm really glad that Marlene seems to be absent, as much as I love the classic stories and as much as I loved seeing those images of her parading around in night gowns and bikinis when I was growing up...I got a little skeeved out reading them last week as that's literally all she's there for; to patch up Marc when he comes home, have sex with him and admonish him for his activities, she has no real self motivation or agency at all. You could fix that in a modern take, make her a smart strong willed woman who helps with his investigations; maybe make her a SHIELD agent trying to make sure he doesn't go too far off the reservation...but part of me thinks it would be better if she just vanished all together. I'm also okay with Frenchie going away too, he wasn't problematic but he didn't add much either.
I thought that might have been Marlene on the phone in the trailer.
Could have been, but if so I'm hoping she doesn't appear. I bought myself the big Moon Knight Omnibuses for Christmas and just did a big read through and I was just really turned off by how she was written...and it wasn't just a 70's-80's thing either, it was played the same way right up to the 2000's. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 24, 2022 7:47:29 GMT -5
I'm actually really surprised Frenchie's not there in some form.... Sure, calling him 'Frenchie' isn't great, but the tech guy/person to talk with over the mic when going on your adventure so you can tell the audience what's happening has been pretty ubiquitous in Marvel since Tony Stark started talking to his armor AI.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 24, 2022 14:32:40 GMT -5
I'm actually really surprised Frenchie's not there in some form.... Sure, calling him 'Frenchie' isn't great, but the tech guy/person to talk with over the mic when going on your adventure so you can tell the audience what's happening has been pretty ubiquitous in Marvel since Tony Stark started talking to his armor AI. With them seemingly going the supernatural route with the costume I don't think there is a mic in the hood. |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 24, 2022 16:42:47 GMT -5
Marlene got in on the action too. Maybe not till later in the series, but she did.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 24, 2022 16:55:45 GMT -5
Marlene got in on the action too. Maybe not till later in the series, but she did. Eh, not nearly often enough. I've just re-read ever appearance from Werewolf by Night and Marvel Spotlight to 2009's Vengeance of Moon Knight and Secret Avengers...and she seldom does anything of note besides sleep with him...it's incredibly toxic on reflection in a way that I never saw when I was reading back in the day. Heck, after the origin in Egypt she hardly ever wore actual clothes in most of her appearances, she'd just walk into a panel in a night gown or a bikini which was titillating as a young boy(and no doubt why it was done) but a little gross now. This isn't an over exaggeration, she was literally just a piece of meat in 8 out of ten appearances. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 24, 2022 17:43:02 GMT -5
Marvel Spotlight #29- One panel where she walks in and admonishes him, three panels in a slinky green low cut dress lounging in Grant's bed just waiting for him to come back home. Two panels in lacy pink underwear waiting by the phone for Grant's call. Three back in the slinky green dress playing the damsel in distress.
Marvel Spotlight #30- Six panels spent tied up upside down with her chest straining against the dress and then two panels making out in the back of the cab.
She doesn't appear at all in Defenders, Spectacular Spider-Man or Marvel Two in One.
She starts out pretty good in Moon Knight #1 with a real sense of agency in dealing with her father's death and the assault on Bushman's camp...but then by the end it's back to a pink night gown pining after Grant as he leaves to investigate. And it's more of the same with six panels of her prancing around the pool in a pink night gown in #2 and then four of them having sex in front of the fireplace. She then next appears in #4 with four panels of her inexplicably in a black unitard and fish net stalkings and then three more in the old slinky green dress...and then changes into a black slip for three panels but she does shoot the bad guy. In then in #5 she's back in the unitard working out for three panels and then goes undercover a stripper with propellers on her chest.
She then appears as a damsel in distress again for a few panels in the Hulk back ups, and in Marvel Preview she spends two whole pages skinny dipping, then four pages in a skimpy bath robe and then we get a scene of her stripping down to her underwear and trying to get Mark to sleep with her and then she gets saved from being raped before she gets to dress up in a skin tight cat suite to beat up some thugs which is the first action she's scene since issue 4...but she goes back to form as she's then seen naked with mark in the end.
Her next appearance is issue 6...where she's in a black nightgown laying in Mark's bed as he leaves. We then get to see her in pants and a sport jacket in #7...but she doesn't do anything of note but hey it's real clothes...but by the end she's laying in Mark's bed in a pink night gown so no real improvement. And 8-9 she goes crazy and tries to murder Mark while in a night gown.
I could go on...but it really doesn't get better.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 24, 2022 20:33:13 GMT -5
It sounds great already.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 24, 2022 20:39:52 GMT -5
There's nothing great about a character being little else than T&A. |
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Post by berkley on Jan 30, 2022 17:37:44 GMT -5
I don't mind the idea of having a sexy female character as part of the team but yeah, there needs to be more to it than just that and I never really took to Marlene. And even the sexiness aspect never worked for me becuase I didn't really like Sienkiwicz's style in the earlier issues of the series. The last few, when he started getting more experimental, were great, but those early ones were often very sketchy looking, to my taste. Possibly he had trouble meeting the schedule demands of a monthly or bi-monthly comic.
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