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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 14, 2023 21:41:25 GMT -5
Do you guys think Marvel's Epic line lived up to its potential? Short answer, no, long answer nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. I think it was compromised too much, from the start and it was never supported by the EIC, apart from daredevil-related stuff. Archie really wanted to push the boundaries and have more stuff like in Europe, where you can do just about any subject or genre and have it treated with equal respect and really push the boundaries of the medium. I do think he had some success with that; but, Epic Illustrated never really rose to being more than a poorer version of Heavy Metal and most of their attempts to shoehorn the regular Marvel characters into, the more it got watered down. The projects just didn't receive marketing support, especially beyond traditional comic shop avenues. DC really kicked their butt in bookstores and outside attention for their mature comics. Moonshadow should have been a media darling, yet no one outside of comics seemed to have heard of it. Several creators who tried Epic soon too their toys elsewhere, like Jim Starlin, with his Dreadstar and other parts of that universe. Marvel/Epic got The Metamorphosis Odyssey, in Epic Illustrated, and the Dreadtsar graphic novel and the first couple of years of the regular series. However, Eclipse got The Price and then Starlin took Dreadstar to First Comics. Once Archie stepped down, it fell apart completely, with mostly forgettable stuff from the Heavy Hitters line and such. I do think they did a great job with the Moebius albums and Akira. Pepe Moreno's Generation Zero deserved more support and it is no surprise that he followed Archie to DC, who reprinted the work, in an album, plus let him to Batman: Digital Justice. Starstruck was another that went elsewhere, as things progressed. It was definitely something, though a compromised version of the intent, with Archie and an afterthought with Carl Potts. Really, with Marvel's muscle behind it, Epic should have really rattled some cages; but, the ownership issue was always a bone of contention between Epic works and Marvel work and Shooter and deFalco put more push behind things which Marvel retained ownership, like Elektra Assassin, Havok & Wolverine and Iron Man: Crash.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 15, 2023 4:55:16 GMT -5
I'm sure I've mentioned it before but back when I was hawking my "Baer & Bear, Confidential Investigations" proposal around the '84 San Diego convention, Archie Goodwin told me, "I like this but Jim Shooter would never let me take a chance on a book by someone with no track record." That kinda says everything about the Epic line (though, honestly, in hindsight I don't think Shooter would've been wrong in my case).
Cei-U! I summon the anecdotal confirmation of cody's assessment!
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 15, 2023 5:38:28 GMT -5
I'm sure I've mentioned it before but back when I was hawking my "Baer & Bear, Confidential Investigations" proposal around the '84 San Diego convention, Archie Goodwin told me, "I like this but Jim Shooter would never let me take a chance on a book by someone with no track record." That kinda says everything about the Epic line (though, honestly, in hindsight I don't think Shooter would've been wrong in my case). Cei-U! I summon the anecdotal confirmation of cody's assessment! That's interesting. I remember reading that Starlin left for First comics because he wasn't getting paid in a timely manner. It wouldn't shock me that upper management disliked publishing characters that they didn't totally own.
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Post by tonebone on Mar 15, 2023 8:56:47 GMT -5
I'm sure I've mentioned it before but back when I was hawking my "Baer & Bear, Confidential Investigations" proposal around the '84 San Diego convention, Archie Goodwin told me, "I like this but Jim Shooter would never let me take a chance on a book by someone with no track record." That kinda says everything about the Epic line (though, honestly, in hindsight I don't think Shooter would've been wrong in my case). Cei-U! I summon the anecdotal confirmation of cody's assessment! That's interesting. I remember reading that Starlin left for First comics because he wasn't getting paid in a timely manner. It wouldn't shock me that upper management disliked publishing characters that they didn't totally own. I see what you did there.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 15, 2023 9:02:21 GMT -5
That's interesting. I remember reading that Starlin left for First comics because he wasn't getting paid in a timely manner. It wouldn't shock me that upper management disliked publishing characters that they didn't totally own. I see what you did there. I wish I was that clever.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 9:30:40 GMT -5
I thought Epic was pretty awesome actually, Alien Legion between the 2 series went like 6 years, classic Dreadstar for 4 years, Epic Illustrated was more my speed than Heavy Metal...and while I wasn't a big fan of Coyote, it DID have a Badger crossover so it gets points for me on that alone. And then my gateway to Moebius...opened my eyes WIDE open to "another world" out there.
I guess there's always "more potential" with anything, but for me those titles mentioned along with some other stuff from the imprint were great years of reading.
I mean, how many "good years" were there really of Nexus, Badger, Miracleman, even the long-lived Cerebus for that matter. Epic line stuff seems about the same to me.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 15, 2023 9:49:29 GMT -5
I wish I bought more of the Epic comics at the time, but I was still heavy into superheroes then. I did buy the magazine, and Elektra: Assassin. And Blood: A Tale.
I have the complete Moonshadow book now, but I haven't read it yet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 9:57:35 GMT -5
I think Epic produced a lot of great books (and a lot of mediocre and some bad ones) but I don't think it ever truly realized its potential, which would have been what Image has come to be in the current marketplace, i.e. a place creators can bring their books to a publishing partner to get the books to market with a powerful mechanism and infrastructure in place to get the books to market AND in the hands of potential customers while giving the creators full ownership and still generating a decent profit for Marvel. But then, a lot of publishers tried to be this in the 80s and failed, though none of them had Marvel's market position and brand strength to bring to bear the way Epic could have. But Epic's failure to do so was because Marvel didn't want to be that market force at heart, and its efforts to do so were half-hearted at best and limited by the lack of vision of Shooter and the suits atop the company.
-M
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Post by Calidore on Mar 15, 2023 10:05:24 GMT -5
I remember reading that Starlin left for First comics because he wasn't getting paid in a timely manner.
Ouch. Out of the frying pan....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 11:14:09 GMT -5
But Epic's failure to do so was because Marvel didn't want to be that market force at heart, and its efforts to do so were half-hearted at best and limited by the lack of vision of Shooter and the suits atop the company. I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time.
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Post by MDG on Mar 15, 2023 12:14:45 GMT -5
I'm sure I've mentioned it before but back when I was hawking my "Baer & Bear, Confidential Investigations" proposal around the '84 San Diego convention... Please tell me that that's about a PI whose partner is an actual bear!
On the New Universe, it's just possible that, especially in the mid-80s, especially when there were so many new publishers, characters, and directions, it just wasn't a great time for Marvel to launch it. They were already hoovering up most readers' money--maybe folks wanted to spend there non-Marvel cash on something really new rather than a Marvel book where Spider-Man or the X-Men didn;t have a chance of showing up.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 15, 2023 12:18:52 GMT -5
But Epic's failure to do so was because Marvel didn't want to be that market force at heart, and its efforts to do so were half-hearted at best and limited by the lack of vision of Shooter and the suits atop the company. I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time. On the flip side, superheroes had been done to death and were repetitive. if you clamored for something more, like when I was younger and they still produced other genres, the indies fulfilled that. Also, the creators weren't phoning it in, in most cases. The indies varied greatly, just as the Big Two did, in terms of quality and professionalism. Outfits like Solson were bottom feeders, jumping on fads, while publishers like Eclipse and Comico were making definite statements about new talent and personal visions, while also delivering good, quality entertainment, in tried-and-true genres. First rivalled anything from DC or Marvel, in terms of names, production, marketing and actual content. Others, like Now Comics, were making a fast buck off exploiting young talent (until those licensed comics ate up their cash flow and no one would work for them, from all the bounced checks) or churning out amateurish, if occasionally promising or good work, like the Malibu imprints. McDonalds is fine, in a pinch, but sometimes I want a gyro or some General Tso's chicken. They have more flavor.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 15, 2023 12:31:51 GMT -5
I remember reading that Starlin left for First comics because he wasn't getting paid in a timely manner.
Ouch. Out of the frying pan....
Not really, until the launch of Classics Illustrated. First Comics, under Mike Gold, had a great rep; but, after he left, the decision making became more and more...misguided? The idea that they were going to conquer bookstores, with the new Classics Illustrated was an obvious train wreck waiting to happen and they shelled out a ton of money to get them prominently placed in bookstores, buying display space from Waldenbooks and B Dalton. That killed their cash flow and then they started stiffing people. Most of the originators had already moved on, like Mike Grell and Howard Chaykin, as their success brought them high paying, high profile opportunities. This brings up the differences in rights at the different indies. From what I understood, from an interview with Jim Starlin, Epic had first right of refusal, but also got a bigger share of the profits when they did publish. First Comics was more generous with the split, but maintained long reprint rights (like 10 years). Eclipse fell a bit more in the middle, offering good terms; but lacking in the marketing strength. They had a hard time getting books visibly on the stands, in the shops; but did a brisk business in back issue sales, when people discovered their titles. The flood that wiped out their warehouse destroyed them, as they lacked the cash to publish new titles and started stiffing people on payments, until creators took their books elsewhere or stopped working for them altogether. Comico had decent terms, early on (though there were issues and they shared some ownership), but also got into trouble with cash flow, after they tried to distribute on newsstands, under traditional returnable terms. Dark Horse was the lone survivor of that, combining the better elements of the others, with a smart businessman running the company. It had the license titles to draw in steady revenue, plus the critical darlings, plus stuff it owned and originated, plus provided new homes for refugees. They also did a lot of goodwill things, like helping Baron & Rude regain Nexus, after the First Comics bankruptcy, as well as Matt Wagner, with Grendel. Then, there were their historical reprints. With Epic, Archie was out to expand the boundaries of what they could publish and tap young talent and creative visions, while Shooter, in my opinion, was more interested in further glutting comic shop stands, to push out others (the traditional Marvel method, going back to the Timely days).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 12:39:32 GMT -5
I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time. On the flip side, superheroes had been done to death and were repetitive. if you clamored for something more, like when I was younger and they still produced other genres, the indies fulfilled that. Also, the creators weren't phoning it in, in most cases. The indies varied greatly, just as the Big Two did, in terms of quality and professionalism. Outfits like Solson were bottom feeders, jumping on fads, while publishers like Eclipse and Comico were making definite statements about new talent and personal visions, while also delivering good, quality entertainment, in tried-and-true genres. First rivalled anything from DC or Marvel, in terms of names, production, marketing and actual content. Others, like Now Comics, were making a fast buck off exploiting young talent (until those licensed comics ate up their cash flow and no one would work for them, from all the bounced checks) or churning out amateurish, if occasionally promising or good work, like the Malibu imprints. McDonalds is fine, in a pinch, but sometimes I want a gyro or some General Tso's chicken. They have more flavor. Fair enough! The little Greek family run restaurant in the food court across the street from where my downtown office is makes a mean gyro, can't deny that I love those too. I will never clamor for more with comic books though. Keep the neverending superhero stories coming...tights and fights, with a side of fries.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 15, 2023 12:58:39 GMT -5
On the flip side, superheroes had been done to death and were repetitive. if you clamored for something more, like when I was younger and they still produced other genres, the indies fulfilled that. Also, the creators weren't phoning it in, in most cases. The indies varied greatly, just as the Big Two did, in terms of quality and professionalism. Outfits like Solson were bottom feeders, jumping on fads, while publishers like Eclipse and Comico were making definite statements about new talent and personal visions, while also delivering good, quality entertainment, in tried-and-true genres. First rivalled anything from DC or Marvel, in terms of names, production, marketing and actual content. Others, like Now Comics, were making a fast buck off exploiting young talent (until those licensed comics ate up their cash flow and no one would work for them, from all the bounced checks) or churning out amateurish, if occasionally promising or good work, like the Malibu imprints. McDonalds is fine, in a pinch, but sometimes I want a gyro or some General Tso's chicken. They have more flavor. Fair enough! The little Greek family run restaurant in the food court across the street from where my downtown office is makes a mean gyro, can't deny that I love those too. I will never clamor for more with comic books though. Keep the neverending superhero stories coming...tights and fights, with a side of fries. That's the difference, with me. My earliest comics were Gold Keys, with humor and sci-fi & fantasy adventure. I loved heroic adventure and space opera and the early 70s offered that at DC and Marvel, but also Gold Key (I was too young for Warren). I used to read the usual superhero books, but loved stuff like Killraven, Deathlok, Master of Kung Fu, Jonah Hex, Sgt Rock, The Haunted Tank, The Losers, Enemy Ace and western heroes like The Rawhide Kid and the original Ghost Rider/Night Rider. I read the westerns and war comics from DC & Marvel, as well as Charlton, plus stuff like Turok, Space Family Robison, Dagar and Mighty Samson, from Gold Key. Charlton gave me the Phantom, plus E-Man, Yang, Cheyenne Kid, Fightin' Army (and The Lonely War of Captain Willy Schultz) and reprints of the Action Heroes stories, from the 60s. So, I have always been predisposed to comics related to things besides superheroes. That was why, when I had grown bored of most DC and Marvel, I lucked into discovering a bookstore that was getting Direct Market material and some of these new indie comics, like the first few issues of Jon Sable, American Flagg, Nexus, Badger, Mighty Crusaders, Starslayer, Ms Tree and then saw my first comic shop, when I went off to college, the following year. That also coincided with DC kicking things up, expanding from New Teen Titans and Legion being excellent reads, to Alan Moore, Crisis, Dark Knight, the Superman revamp, the Wonder Woman revamp, etc bringing me back to traditional and non-traditional superheroes (like Denny O'Neil and Denys Cowan's The Question). Marvel never did get me back, apart from the odd mini or occasional storyline in a specific work (like Brubaker's Captain America or Matt Fraction's Iron Fist,, or Dan Slott's humorous stuff).
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