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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 15, 2023 13:00:12 GMT -5
But Epic's failure to do so was because Marvel didn't want to be that market force at heart, and its efforts to do so were half-hearted at best and limited by the lack of vision of Shooter and the suits atop the company. I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time. Supercat is the Anti-Slam Bradley.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 13:09:07 GMT -5
I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time. Supercat is the Anti-Slam Bradley. It's all true.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 15, 2023 14:06:25 GMT -5
I thought Epic was pretty awesome actually, Alien Legion between the 2 series went like 6 years, classic Dreadstar for 4 years, Epic Illustrated was more my speed than Heavy Metal...and while I wasn't a big fan of Coyote, it DID have a Badger crossover so it gets points for me on that alone. And then my gateway to Moebius...opened my eyes WIDE open to "another world" out there. (...) Without getting into the behind-the-scenes aspects or whether or not the line lived up to its potential, I generally agree with you about the actual output. The few Epic titles that I read at the time or picked up later were pretty enjoyable, and yes, I very much preferred Epic Illustrated over Heavy Metal - I only ever had a few issues of each, but I tended to prefer the stories and art in Epic, and I found the articles (movie & book reviews, opinion pieces) in Heavy Metal a bit pretentious and annoying.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 15, 2023 17:27:51 GMT -5
I'm sure I've mentioned it before but back when I was hawking my "Baer & Bear, Confidential Investigations" proposal around the '84 San Diego convention... Please tell me that that's about a PI whose partner is an actual bear! Close. It's about a PI whose partner is a Teddy Ruxpin-type teddy bear brought to life by lightning with the blended memories and personalities of the PI's father and a notorious industrial spy-for-hire.
Cei-U! I summon my babies!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 17:27:57 GMT -5
But Epic's failure to do so was because Marvel didn't want to be that market force at heart, and its efforts to do so were half-hearted at best and limited by the lack of vision of Shooter and the suits atop the company. I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time. The way you feel about creator-owned stuff is the way I feel about assembly line work-for -hire stuff produced to meet a deadline and get a paycheck. Sure there are some home runs, but most of it is pablum filler, and Marvel was pretty much the innovator looking for content and format in the 70s, which is where Epic had its conception, but Shooter abandoned that in favor of formula stuff produced to make the trains run on time. That's not editorial leadership or vision, that's middle management answering the suits and their accountants to make them happy. -M
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 17:38:19 GMT -5
I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time. The way you feel about creator-owned stuff is the way I feel about assembly line work-for -hire stuff produced to meet a deadline and get a paycheck. Sure there are some home runs, but most of it is pablum filler, and Marvel was pretty much the innovator looking for content and format in the 70s, which is where Epic had its conception, but Shooter abandoned that in favor of formula stuff produced to make the trains run on time. That's not editorial leadership or vision, that's middle management answering the suits and their accountants to make them happy. -M Totally respect that outlook!
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Post by commond on Mar 15, 2023 17:59:24 GMT -5
I don't know how many Marvel creators were interested in creating work for Epic, but considering that there are a lot of late 80s Marvel books where the creators seem more interested in doing anything other than a superhero book and so much of their talent ended up going the creator-owned route in the 90s, it seems like there was potential for Marvel to have a mature readers line in the 90s to rival Vertigo. It's difficult to gauge what Marvel's reaction was to the success DC had in the 80s and 90s with its mature readers books. There are times when it seems like they snub the success and other times where it feels like they're trying to coyly imitate it. This frustration goes way back to Savage Tales to me, and the aborted attempts at any non-Conan related magazine.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 15, 2023 19:36:55 GMT -5
I don't debate that Epic turned out some great books; but, given the question was about their potential, I still stick with no. They had great books that weren't getting into many hands, unless they featured someone like Elektra. Some of that may have been the market; but most of it was a lack of promotion to the world beyond the Direct Market. DC was actively courting outside sales, in bookstores, and media attention for mature titles, even if they still weren't willing to do creator ownership, yet. They pushed what became Vertigo way harder. It helped that they had a publisher who came from the book and magazine world, who had the contacts and knew how to sell to those avenues, vs people who were pure comic books. Given that same level of backing at the top, Epic could have really been a game changer for Marvel and given them both the mature audience and the adolescent audience. Similarly, their attempt at the young audience, with the Star Line, was pretty half-hearted. Louise Simonson has talked about pitching comics aimed at girls, potentially working with Harlequin or something similar and being given the cold shoulder by Shooter and other higher ups. So, Marvel ceded the mature audience to Vertigo and the indies and most of the female fandom, such as it was at that point. Both companies did little to capture the youngest readers and they moved on to other things.
Marvel struggled for a long time in courting mature readers and the best they came up with was the Max line, which was less about mature characters and stories and more about swearing and nudity.
It's not entirely Shooter's fault, as their corporate masters didn't like the idea of even sharing copyright and Epic's terms weren't as generous as others. Also, by 1986/87, they were looking to sell (ultimately, to New World), which made them more cautious. I don't know that To DeFalco was any more receptive and e pretty much did as he was told, from above.
It's not that unusual a story, when you think about it. Both Charlton and Western/Gold Key/Whitman were in a position to control every aspect of their comics, right down to distribution to newsstands, yet never really pursued those opportunities to their fullest. They just considered the comics as a sideline to keep their printing presses going, for their more lucrative stuff (Puzzles and books, for Western, magazines and cereal boxes, for Charlton)
I also think that the prejudices of many store owners kept their clients from seeing as much Epic material , much as they did the indies. You had a large segment who carried DC and Marvel and little else, unless it was hot. I recall seeing a lot more First Comics titles in my locals, compared to Epic, unless it had Daredevil or Elektra. I don't think I came across an Alien Legion until I was in the military, in back issue bins. When I lived in Charleston, there was one main store where could find the Moebius albums and Akira, as well as stuff from Catalan, NBM, Eclipse, First, Malibu and others. My main store was decent about getting indie stuff; but not as big a selection and more the usual genres. I could find more Comico, than Fantagraphics there; but I could find some. The other store supported graphic novels more, with a much deeper selection. Coincidentally, the last time I was down there (which was more than a decade ago) they were still in operation, while my main store was long gone (sold in a divorce, then shut down and a new store opened to replace it)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 19:57:46 GMT -5
I don't debate that Epic turned out some great books; but, given the question was about their potential, I still stick with no. They had great books that weren't getting into many hands, unless they featured someone like Elektra. Some of that may have been the market; but most of it was a lack of promotion to the world beyond the Direct Market. DC was actively courting outside sales, in bookstores, and media attention for mature titles, even if they still weren't willing to do creator ownership, yet. They pushed what became Vertigo way harder. It helped that they had a publisher who came from the book and magazine world, who had the contacts and knew how to sell to those avenues, vs people who were pure comic books. Given that same level of backing at the top, Epic could have really been a game changer for Marvel and given them both the mature audience and the adolescent audience. Similarly, their attempt at the young audience, with the Star Line, was pretty half-hearted. Louise Simonson has talked about pitching comics aimed at girls, potentially working with Harlequin or something similar and being given the cold shoulder by Shooter and other higher ups. So, Marvel ceded the mature audience to Vertigo and the indies and most of the female fandom, such as it was at that point. Both companies did little to capture the youngest readers and they moved on to other things. Marvel struggled for a long time in courting mature readers and the best they came up with was the Max line, which was less about mature characters and stories and more about swearing and nudity. It's not entirely Shooter's fault, as their corporate masters didn't like the idea of even sharing copyright and Epic's terms weren't as generous as others. Also, by 1986/87, they were looking to sell (ultimately, to New World), which made them more cautious. I don't know that To DeFalco was any more receptive and e pretty much did as he was told, from above. It's not that unusual a story, when you think about it. Both Charlton and Western/Gold Key/Whitman were in a position to control every aspect of their comics, right down to distribution to newsstands, yet never really pursued those opportunities to their fullest. They just considered the comics as a sideline to keep their printing presses going, for their more lucrative stuff (Puzzles and books, for Western, magazines and cereal boxes, for Charlton) I also think that the prejudices of many store owners kept their clients from seeing as much Epic material , much as they did the indies. You had a large segment who carried DC and Marvel and little else, unless it was hot. I recall seeing a lot more First Comics titles in my locals, compared to Epic, unless it had Daredevil or Elektra. I don't think I came across an Alien Legion until I was in the military, in back issue bins. When I lived in Charleston, there was one main store where could find the Moebius albums and Akira, as well as stuff from Catalan, NBM, Eclipse, First, Malibu and others. My main store was decent about getting indie stuff; but not as big a selection and more the usual genres. I could find more Comico, than Fantagraphics there; but I could find some. The other store supported graphic novels more, with a much deeper selection. Coincidentally, the last time I was down there (which was more than a decade ago) they were still in operation, while my main store was long gone (sold in a divorce, then shut down and a new store opened to replace it) Not going to be ab apologist for retailers, but the terms of the direct market and the buying habits of the core customer worked against stocking extra "indy" titles. If a book is non-returnable it either needs to sell out before its' window for shelf life ends or it has to have a potential back issue market here the retailer knows he can sell it eventually, and indy books were an unknown quantity in ether field, so they had to be cautious or they would up tying up operating capital in books that would never sell. If the publishers had made the first issue or first 2-3 issues returnable, retailers could order enough for it to find it's market level, but having to guess ahead of time on unknown quantities is going to lead retailer sot be extremely conservative in ordering those types of books. Spider-Man has a back issue market if it doesn't sell initially, and the retailer can eventually make his money. Does Six from Sirius or Ms. Tree? Unless the retailer knows he can sell out on it, he is not going to order big or even beyond "pull list" customers on those types of books. That's a fault of the market model, not the retailer. The direct market is great for selling people what they already know they want. It is not so great as a discovery market because of risk factors, even if it did open up potential shelf space for indy books. -M
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Post by Calidore on Mar 15, 2023 21:35:13 GMT -5
Ouch. Out of the frying pan....
Not really, until the launch of Classics Illustrated. First Comics, under Mike Gold, had a great rep; but, after he left, the decision making became more and more...misguided? The idea that they were going to conquer bookstores, with the new Classics Illustrated was an obvious train wreck waiting to happen and they shelled out a ton of money to get them prominently placed in bookstores, buying display space from Waldenbooks and B Dalton. That killed their cash flow and then they started stiffing people. Most of the originators had already moved on, like Mike Grell and Howard Chaykin, as their success brought them high paying, high profile opportunities.
Ah, I definitely remember them being fine under Mike Gold, but thought Starlin and Dreadstar moved over later and were caught by the new leadership's problems. It's been a while, though. Truly a shame what happened, because I can't think of another indie publisher who had a similar quality-to-junk ratio.
General note regarding Epic: I ran across a blog a while ago by someone named Lars Ingebrigtsen, in which he read and reviewed the entire output of Epic Comics.
He also has several linked blogs covering his complete reads of Pacific, Eclipse, Fantagraphics, Vortex, AV/Renegade, and Punk Comix, as well as his currently running read-through of Kitchen Sink. His writing is enjoyable overall, though his overuse of the trope of writing a declarative sentence as a question drives me batty.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 15, 2023 23:28:13 GMT -5
Not really, until the launch of Classics Illustrated. First Comics, under Mike Gold, had a great rep; but, after he left, the decision making became more and more...misguided? The idea that they were going to conquer bookstores, with the new Classics Illustrated was an obvious train wreck waiting to happen and they shelled out a ton of money to get them prominently placed in bookstores, buying display space from Waldenbooks and B Dalton. That killed their cash flow and then they started stiffing people. Most of the originators had already moved on, like Mike Grell and Howard Chaykin, as their success brought them high paying, high profile opportunities.
Ah, I definitely remember them being fine under Mike Gold, but thought Starlin and Dreadstar moved over later and were caught by the new leadership's problems. It's been a while, though. Truly a shame what happened, because I can't think of another indie publisher who had a similar quality-to-junk ratio.
General note regarding Epic: I ran across a blog a while ago by someone named Lars Ingebrigtsen, in which he read and reviewed the entire output of Epic Comics.
He also has several linked blogs covering his complete reads of Pacific, Eclipse, Fantagraphics, Vortex, AV/Renegade, and Punk Comix, as well as his currently running read-through of Kitchen Sink. His writing is enjoyable overall, though his overuse of the trope of writing a declarative sentence as a question drives me batty.
Dreadstar was there later than the rest, though Starlin wasn't writing it. From issue 41, until the end, Peter David was writing it and Angel Medina was drawing. Starlin is off art by #33 and had inks & finishes on the previous two issues, by Sam Grainger. So, Starlin might have had issues, though he left the series by 1989. First's bankruptcy was in 1991. I believe the Classics Illustrated project was in 1990. Now, it is possible that he had issues with royalties, with later issues. I do know that the bankruptcy caused a lot of problems for the creators, because of bankruptcy laws. Their contracts with First fell under civil law, but the bankruptcy laws were Federal. The comics were considered an asset of the company, in relation to their debt. This was the problem faced by matt Wagner, with Comico's bankruptcy, and definitely affected Mike Baron & Steve Rude, over Nexus and Badger (well, Badger, for Baron). I am not sure about Grell and Chaykin, since their books had already been discontinued. In my conversation with Grell, he talked about the long reprint rights they had, which tied up their control of the titles, despite ownership. So, I don't know if the delay in reprinting American Flagg (for Chaykin) and the use of Jon Sable (by Grell, in Shaman's Tears) was related to the reprint rights or the bankruptcy asset issue. Mike Gold was at that same convention and made a couple of cracks about the later leadership, in terms of leaving people in a lurch, when they went belly up, comparing them to Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson, the founder of DC. He went bankrupt, leaving behind debts, including to Harry Donenfeld and jack Liebowitz, who were his partners, covering the distribution end, through Independent News. They ended up with control of the company. Mike Richardson, at Dark Horse, was some help in acquiring Nexus and Badger, and Grendel for Matt Wagner, though it was quite a while before Wagner reacquired Mage (I think there may have been a joint copyright on it, with the founders of Comico and Wagner).
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 15, 2023 23:47:39 GMT -5
I don't debate that Epic turned out some great books; but, given the question was about their potential, I still stick with no. They had great books that weren't getting into many hands, unless they featured someone like Elektra. Some of that may have been the market; but most of it was a lack of promotion to the world beyond the Direct Market. DC was actively courting outside sales, in bookstores, and media attention for mature titles, even if they still weren't willing to do creator ownership, yet. They pushed what became Vertigo way harder. It helped that they had a publisher who came from the book and magazine world, who had the contacts and knew how to sell to those avenues, vs people who were pure comic books. Given that same level of backing at the top, Epic could have really been a game changer for Marvel and given them both the mature audience and the adolescent audience. Similarly, their attempt at the young audience, with the Star Line, was pretty half-hearted. Louise Simonson has talked about pitching comics aimed at girls, potentially working with Harlequin or something similar and being given the cold shoulder by Shooter and other higher ups. So, Marvel ceded the mature audience to Vertigo and the indies and most of the female fandom, such as it was at that point. Both companies did little to capture the youngest readers and they moved on to other things. Marvel struggled for a long time in courting mature readers and the best they came up with was the Max line, which was less about mature characters and stories and more about swearing and nudity. It's not entirely Shooter's fault, as their corporate masters didn't like the idea of even sharing copyright and Epic's terms weren't as generous as others. Also, by 1986/87, they were looking to sell (ultimately, to New World), which made them more cautious. I don't know that To DeFalco was any more receptive and e pretty much did as he was told, from above. It's not that unusual a story, when you think about it. Both Charlton and Western/Gold Key/Whitman were in a position to control every aspect of their comics, right down to distribution to newsstands, yet never really pursued those opportunities to their fullest. They just considered the comics as a sideline to keep their printing presses going, for their more lucrative stuff (Puzzles and books, for Western, magazines and cereal boxes, for Charlton) I also think that the prejudices of many store owners kept their clients from seeing as much Epic material , much as they did the indies. You had a large segment who carried DC and Marvel and little else, unless it was hot. I recall seeing a lot more First Comics titles in my locals, compared to Epic, unless it had Daredevil or Elektra. I don't think I came across an Alien Legion until I was in the military, in back issue bins. When I lived in Charleston, there was one main store where could find the Moebius albums and Akira, as well as stuff from Catalan, NBM, Eclipse, First, Malibu and others. My main store was decent about getting indie stuff; but not as big a selection and more the usual genres. I could find more Comico, than Fantagraphics there; but I could find some. The other store supported graphic novels more, with a much deeper selection. Coincidentally, the last time I was down there (which was more than a decade ago) they were still in operation, while my main store was long gone (sold in a divorce, then shut down and a new store opened to replace it) Not going to be ab apologist for retailers, but the terms of the direct market and the buying habits of the core customer worked against stocking extra "indy" titles. If a book is non-returnable it either needs to sell out before its' window for shelf life ends or it has to have a potential back issue market here the retailer knows he can sell it eventually, and indy books were an unknown quantity in ether field, so they had to be cautious or they would up tying up operating capital in books that would never sell. If the publishers had made the first issue or first 2-3 issues returnable, retailers could order enough for it to find it's market level, but having to guess ahead of time on unknown quantities is going to lead retailer sot be extremely conservative in ordering those types of books. Spider-Man has a back issue market if it doesn't sell initially, and the retailer can eventually make his money. Does Six from Sirius or Ms. Tree? Unless the retailer knows he can sell out on it, he is not going to order big or even beyond "pull list" customers on those types of books. That's a fault of the market model, not the retailer. The direct market is great for selling people what they already know they want. It is not so great as a discovery market because of risk factors, even if it did open up potential shelf space for indy books. -M I get that; but, in my experience, a lot of comic shop owners were fans first and businessmen second and the shelf life of the average store was often equivalent to the average business failure (about 5 years). While, yes, it is best to stick with what you know you can sell, part of the art of business is finding the new market or customer for your product. That involves promotion. A great many shops simply waited for customers to ask them for specific titles, as well as following the basic marketing from DC and Marvel, ordering what they are presenting as the "hot title." I have been to stores that did more of that, posting recommended titles to their customers, talking them up to them, even offering a free return if they don't like the issue, when they think it is up a client's alley. Those were the stores that built a business and those type tended to be friendlier to the indies because they built a receptive audience. I knew one in Charleston, The Green Dragon. They outlived every other store in the city, despite my main haunt having deeper and greater back issue stock and a more thorough selection of new titles, beyond the subscribers. Now, their store existed on more than comics, which was a big factor. they also sold sci-fi, history and New Age books, fantasy sculptures, role playing game materials and martial arts equipment. They were an eclectic bunch (especially for South Carolina); but, they also developed their customer base and communicated with them actively, rather than wait for passive orders. They carried a very wide selection of graphic novels and reprint colelctions, whereas my shop mostly ordered those for customers, with a few mainstream reprints for stock. However, I am also talking about the non-Direct Market. DC was aggressive in getting their product, especially the stuff that was getting mainstream attention, like Dark Knight and Watchmen, in those shops. Marvel had a relationship with Waldenbooks, for a time, leading to themed spinner display for their graphic novels. It wasn't too great a stretch to try to expand that into the Epic material (which they did sell some of the Epic graphic novels, like Dreadstar, in the spinner display). DC was also more aggressive about reprinting in book form. Marvel lagged on that for quite a while; still does. DC had the advantage of Warner Books. Marvel had the sales force to try to develop and expand those book chain relationships to expand their market for Epic's product; but didn't pursue it; or, at least, with any vigor. They were happy with the status quo, because their main line was the bread and butter of the Direct Market and their policies of glutting the market with product forced stores to decide if they wanted to take a chance on an Eclipse or Kitchen Sink title or stick with more Marvel product that was selling moderately, compared to the A-list. That reluctance to give an indie a shot and reduce their buying of Marvel's lower tier product meant they were vulnerable when Marvel tried to self-distribute and ended up taking a chunk of the retailer market with them, when they crashed. Stores that developed a clientele that crossed spectrums were less beholden to any one company, though they suffered collateral damage. It is not a sure thing and stores ran on tight margins; but, I do think the comic retail market had a large segment that wee poor business people and helped to contribute to the stagnancy of the market's development. That is wasted potential of the industry and it is the same waste of potential I see with Epic. Since they dominated the Direct Market, they could have easily have marketed their Epic titles better and found the same enthusiastic audience that DC did, for Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol and Sandman. Instead, they mostly ignored them and tried to push Shooter's Folly, aka The New Universe.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2023 0:46:15 GMT -5
Not going to be ab apologist for retailers, but the terms of the direct market and the buying habits of the core customer worked against stocking extra "indy" titles. If a book is non-returnable it either needs to sell out before its' window for shelf life ends or it has to have a potential back issue market here the retailer knows he can sell it eventually, and indy books were an unknown quantity in ether field, so they had to be cautious or they would up tying up operating capital in books that would never sell. If the publishers had made the first issue or first 2-3 issues returnable, retailers could order enough for it to find it's market level, but having to guess ahead of time on unknown quantities is going to lead retailer sot be extremely conservative in ordering those types of books. Spider-Man has a back issue market if it doesn't sell initially, and the retailer can eventually make his money. Does Six from Sirius or Ms. Tree? Unless the retailer knows he can sell out on it, he is not going to order big or even beyond "pull list" customers on those types of books. That's a fault of the market model, not the retailer. The direct market is great for selling people what they already know they want. It is not so great as a discovery market because of risk factors, even if it did open up potential shelf space for indy books. -M I get that; but, in my experience, a lot of comic shop owners were fans first and businessmen second and the shelf life of the average store was often equivalent to the average business failure (about 5 years). While, yes, it is best to stick with what you know you can sell, part of the art of business is finding the new market or customer for your product. That involves promotion. A great many shops simply waited for customers to ask them for specific titles, as well as following the basic marketing from DC and Marvel, ordering what they are presenting as the "hot title." I have been to stores that did more of that, posting recommended titles to their customers, talking them up to them, even offering a free return if they don't like the issue, when they think it is up a client's alley. Those were the stores that built a business and those type tended to be friendlier to the indies because they built a receptive audience. I knew one in Charleston, The Green Dragon. They outlived every other store in the city, despite my main haunt having deeper and greater back issue stock and a more thorough selection of new titles, beyond the subscribers. Now, their store existed on more than comics, which was a big factor. they also sold sci-fi, history and New Age books, fantasy sculptures, role playing game materials and martial arts equipment. They were an eclectic bunch (especially for South Carolina); but, they also developed their customer base and communicated with them actively, rather than wait for passive orders. They carried a very wide selection of graphic novels and reprint colelctions, whereas my shop mostly ordered those for customers, with a few mainstream reprints for stock. However, I am also talking about the non-Direct Market. DC was aggressive in getting their product, especially the stuff that was getting mainstream attention, like Dark Knight and Watchmen, in those shops. Marvel had a relationship with Waldenbooks, for a time, leading to themed spinner display for their graphic novels. It wasn't too great a stretch to try to expand that into the Epic material (which they did sell some of the Epic graphic novels, like Dreadstar, in the spinner display). DC was also more aggressive about reprinting in book form. Marvel lagged on that for quite a while; still does. DC had the advantage of Warner Books. Marvel had the sales force to try to develop and expand those book chain relationships to expand their market for Epic's product; but didn't pursue it; or, at least, with any vigor. They were happy with the status quo, because their main line was the bread and butter of the Direct Market and their policies of glutting the market with product forced stores to decide if they wanted to take a chance on an Eclipse or Kitchen Sink title or stick with more Marvel product that was selling moderately, compared to the A-list. That reluctance to give an indie a shot and reduce their buying of Marvel's lower tier product meant they were vulnerable when Marvel tried to self-distribute and ended up taking a chunk of the retailer market with them, when they crashed. Stores that developed a clientele that crossed spectrums were less beholden to any one company, though they suffered collateral damage. It is not a sure thing and stores ran on tight margins; but, I do think the comic retail market had a large segment that wee poor business people and helped to contribute to the stagnancy of the market's development. That is wasted potential of the industry and it is the same waste of potential I see with Epic. Since they dominated the Direct Market, they could have easily have marketed their Epic titles better and found the same enthusiastic audience that DC did, for Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol and Sandman. Instead, they mostly ignored them and tried to push Shooter's Folly, aka The New Universe. DC also had the advantage of being part of Warner and pushing outside the direct market, and their initial forays into the book market, such as Dark Knight Returns, were published by Warner Books, so had stores carry the product based on that strength of brand, who likely wouldn't have ordered/carried it had "DC Comics" been the publisher in the trade dress. Marvel had no such media in or path to market outside the existing direct market. Once the product got into stores and sold, creating a track record, they then switched form Warner Books to DC on the trade dress, and were able to exploit the foothold they got. No other comic publisher had that advantage and leverage to get their product into the bookstore market, and only a few, like the Starblaze editions of Elfquest, had gotten into bookstores prior to that. When Marvel had pushed into the book market in the 70s, it was through Fireside Books and Pocket Books (And DC with Tempo), again with book buyers for stores buying from book publishers not comic publishers. But those doors weren't pushed open until DC found the right combo of content with appeal to non-traditional comic readers (like DKR and Watchmen) and strength of the Warner Books brand to get those books into a position where customers could buy them. There was a reluctance in that book market to buy product directly from "comic" publishers that had to be overcome. DC had the tools for it, Marvel didn't. -M
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 16, 2023 4:51:55 GMT -5
But Epic's failure to do so was because Marvel didn't want to be that market force at heart, and its efforts to do so were half-hearted at best and limited by the lack of vision of Shooter and the suits atop the company. I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time.Dude, well said. Sometimes I feel some of the posters here are disingenuous. They probably liked the comics the big 2 were producing, but feel it's not " hip" to say you liked them. Long lived comics are still here for a reason, People really like the characters and set up for those books.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 16, 2023 5:03:01 GMT -5
I also think that the prejudices of many store owners kept their clients from seeing as much Epic material , much as they did the indies. You had a large segment who carried DC and Marvel and little else, unless it was hot. I recall seeing a lot more First Comics titles in my locals, compared to Epic, unless it had Daredevil or Elektra. I don't think I came across an Alien Legion until I was in the military, in back issue bins. When I lived in Charleston, there was one main store where could find the Moebius albums and Akira, as well as stuff from Catalan, NBM, Eclipse, First, Malibu and others. My main store was decent about getting indie stuff; but not as big a selection and more the usual genres. I could find more Comico, than Fantagraphics there; but I could find some. The other store supported graphic novels more, with a much deeper selection. Coincidentally, the last time I was down there (which was more than a decade ago) they were still in operation, while my main store was long gone (sold in a divorce, then shut down and a new store opened to replace it) This is the chicken or the egg dilemma. Did store owners order less of non superhero books cause of lack of sales or was it a bias ? Its easier to order 30 Spider-man books that will move over 10 independent comics where you're stuck with 8 after a month.
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