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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2023 5:33:27 GMT -5
I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time.Dude, well said. Sometimes I feel some of the posters here are disingenuous. They probably liked the comics the big 2 were producing, but feel it's not " hip" to say you liked them. Long lived comics are still here for a reason, People really like the characters and set up for those books. The thing I liked about reading comics as a kid, more than the stories and the characters, was the sense of discovering something new everytime I picked up a comic I hadn't read before. Some 50 years later, reading super-hero comics form my childhood or characters I liked as a kid can be a kick of nostalgia, but they are never going to provide that sense of wonder and discovery that I got form comics then. The only thing that can do that is by exploring and trying new things. So I loved super-hero comics as a kid, and I enjoy revisiting old favorites form time to time, but the real juice for comics for me has always been that sense of discovery, and I can't get that from the same old same old comics. And I think the reason a lot of people don't like "modern super-hero comics" is because they cannot get that sense of discovery from them after decades of reading the same old thing, so they turn to nostalgic favorites looking for that sense of discovery, but those can't provide it either because it's already been discovered. It can bring back memories of that sense of discovery, but not the actual sense of discovery itself. And further, I think if people didn't want that sense of discovery, they wouldn't have been enraptured by comics (super-hero or otherwise) to begin with. But somewhere, a lot of people lose that sense of discovery because they stop nurturing by sticking to the same ole same ole. -M
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Post by tonebone on Mar 16, 2023 6:40:04 GMT -5
I thought Epic was pretty awesome actually, Alien Legion between the 2 series went like 6 years, classic Dreadstar for 4 years, Epic Illustrated was more my speed than Heavy Metal...and while I wasn't a big fan of Coyote, it DID have a Badger crossover so it gets points for me on that alone. And then my gateway to Moebius...opened my eyes WIDE open to "another world" out there. I guess there's always "more potential" with anything, but for me those titles mentioned along with some other stuff from the imprint were great years of reading. I mean, how many "good years" were there really of Nexus, Badger, Miracleman, even the long-lived Cerebus for that matter. Epic line stuff seems about the same to me. Totally agree. Loved Alien Legion, Early Dreadstar, Coyote's beautiful art (the story was ugh), and Epic Illustrated was also "my speed"... I always felt like 80's Heavy Metal was trying to be soft core porn and hid it from my parents... Epic, I felt, focused more on story and art, not Corben Boob Syndrome. I also liked their addition of Groo, and their reprinting of Elfquest. Once they started featuring "adult" stories of Marvel characters, it was dead.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2023 7:17:44 GMT -5
I thought Epic was pretty awesome actually, Alien Legion between the 2 series went like 6 years, classic Dreadstar for 4 years, Epic Illustrated was more my speed than Heavy Metal...and while I wasn't a big fan of Coyote, it DID have a Badger crossover so it gets points for me on that alone. And then my gateway to Moebius...opened my eyes WIDE open to "another world" out there. I guess there's always "more potential" with anything, but for me those titles mentioned along with some other stuff from the imprint were great years of reading. I mean, how many "good years" were there really of Nexus, Badger, Miracleman, even the long-lived Cerebus for that matter. Epic line stuff seems about the same to me. Totally agree. Loved Alien Legion, Early Dreadstar, Coyote's beautiful art (the story was ugh), and Epic Illustrated was also "my speed"... I always felt like 80's Heavy Metal was trying to be soft core porn and hid it from my parents... Epic, I felt, focused more on story and art, not Corben Boob Syndrome. I also liked their addition of Groo, and their reprinting of Elfquest. Once they started featuring "adult" stories of Marvel characters, it was dead. Epic Illustrated featured "mature Marvel super-hero stories" right from issue #1 which had a Silver Surfer story by Lee/Buscema/Nebres intended for that mature audience market, so I guess that means Epic was DOA. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 16, 2023 9:06:27 GMT -5
I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time.Dude, well said. Sometimes I feel some of the posters here are disingenuous. They probably liked the comics the big 2 were producing, but feel it's not " hip" to say you liked them. Long lived comics are still here for a reason, People really like the characters and set up for those books. I don't think that's the case. A lot of us unabashedly loved super-hero funnybooks when we were younger and still can feel nostalgia for them. I had over 150 issue continuous runs of both Batman and Detective purchased off the spinner racks and at comic stores. The issue is that, for the most part, DC and Marvel are still telling exactly the same stories that they were back then. I heard all the hype about Scott Snyder's "Court of Owls" so I read it. The problem was that I had already read essentially the same Batman story three or four times before. On the very rare occasion that someone does something semi-new and interesting, I'll read a new superhero book. Immortal Hulk was pretty good (though I haven't managed to finish it up). But for the most part it's "been there, done that, don't need to do it again." And while I can have a lot of nostalgia for the books I read when I was 12, they don't have the same impact because I've grown and changed and they've stayed the same. My life and my interests are not what they were 40+ years ago. I find that reading a lot of them is a chore. Just like watching a lot of TV from that time is a chore and reading the same prose that I'd have read then is a chore.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 16, 2023 21:06:52 GMT -5
I think Shooter overall kept the right focus for Marvel, while mainstream comics weighted heavily towards superheroes may not be everyone's cup of tea, for many they are and that's also why the whole Indy world exists out there as an alternative. I know this doesn't sound so cool to say, but to me a lot of "creator owned" stuff on paper sounds like a great idea, yet it's all over the place in terms of quality. Some home runs for sure, but it can be a slog to filter through. I don't really get that excited by stuff like Image to be honest because I don't have the patience. I think Epic could have ended up that way, so I appreciate Marvel staying more the course. And not that I'm a staunch defender of all things Shooter by any means, but I don't think Marvel was all that after he left. I like my comics like I like McDonalds...bash it all you want in terms of quality, but them unhealthy yet awesome smelling fries are going to beat out that vegan guac tofu quinoa wrap from the hipster food truck every time.Dude, well said. Sometimes I feel some of the posters here are disingenuous. They probably liked the comics the big 2 were producing, but feel it's not " hip" to say you liked them. Long lived comics are still here for a reason, People really like the characters and set up for those books. I bought plenty of superhero material at that period; but not Marvel and not "just superheroes." I was mostly burnt out on both companies, by about 1982. I got a few superhero books, now and then. For the most part, it was New Teen Titans, Legion of Superheroes and X-Men. The common factor was that the writing was excellent and the characters acted in more mature ways. I bought Crisis, the Byrne Superman revamp, the Miller Batman; but, Superman was the only one I kept getting regularly. Batman never really got into a groove for me and I only picked up the odd storyline, until Legends of the Dark Knight let an interesting mix of people do stories out of continuity. I tried Wonder Woman but didn't stick past the first 3 issues. Wasn;t my cup of tea. Once I was done with X-Men, with issue #175, I never picked up a regular Marvel series, through the decade, except Classic X-Men. The odd mini or graphic novels, like Nick Fury vs Shield; but, that was it. DC was putting out more interesting superhero, for my tastes and I got Suicide Squad, Captain Atom, the afore-mentioned Superman books, Justice League (the BWAHAHA Era) and the first few issues of Mike baron's Flash. I picked up Green Arrow from the Longbow Hunters, until Grell left and the entire run of the Question, including the Quarterlies. However, at the same time, I was getting Jon Sable, Nexus, Grendel, Scout, Miracleman, Airboy (and related minis and one-shots), Strike!, Justice Machine, some Swamp Thing, a bit of Doom Patrol, Sam Glanzman's A Sailor's Story, The Rocketeer, DC's Doc Savage, Hawkworld, Manhunter, Starman, Lone Wolf & Cub, Area 88, Mai the Psychic Girl, Marshal Law. There is a bunch of Epic material I acquired much later, like Alien Legion, that I might have bought earlier, had I seen it. However, I didn't see it in my local stores. The only Epic stuff that I saw was Elektra Assassin and Dreadstar. I didn't see write ups about it in the comic press, because they weren't getting them in the hands of reviewers and the like, or getting them seen, by journalists. I suspect Archie wanted that; but he sure wasn't getting the budget or the help to do it. By the time I left college, I was getting more and more indie material and more stuff like the Vertigo titles, and fewer superhero books. It all depended on the writing, the creative talent and the art. However, I never "just bought superheroes," even as a kid. I read westerns, war comics, sci-fi, fantasy, Richie Rich, Archie, funny animal, pulp hero adaptations....horror and supernatural were about the only things, aside from romance comics I didn't read at least occasionally and even then, if a friend or relative had some of those, I'd at least read them. When I was nearing graduation from high school, I discovered First Comics and a few of the other independents and they were getting more than DC and marvel, until about 1986, when DC started pumping out new and interesting titles. The bulk of my Marvel buying was before 1982, aside from back issues, which mostly consisted of material before that same period. From then on, it was very sporadic. I might stop in for things like Waid & Garney on Captain America, or Busiek's early Thunderbolts issues (first half dozen) and the same for his Avengers, with Perez. I read Vietnam Journal before I read a collection of The Nam. I didn't buy it, but I looked at stuff lie Neil the Horse and RAW magazine and kept looking for, but never finding Love & Rockets. My thesis is that Epic did not live up to its potential, not that it wasn't good or because it was Marvel it wasn't as good as Kitchen Sink. Marvel didn't support it via marketing, even within the comic shops. It didn't pursue other avenues to get them into a receptive readership. It backed off of terms that it initially indicated it would offer. It was a great idea that got compromised several times. To me, that means it didn't live up to its potential, not that it sucked.
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