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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 2, 2023 20:00:22 GMT -5
IIRC, the original idea was that Jason would either be dead or in a coma, so that issue would have been largely the same either way. Convoluted continuity makes for bizarre motivations. As I recall, immediately post- Year One Batman had Bats firing Dick and deciding to work solo (and then illogically hiring Jason, totally inexperienced, a short while later). The transition had been handled so much better by Doug Moench pre-Crisis! |
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Post by zaku on Dec 2, 2023 21:02:04 GMT -5
And, more importantly, Batman made the decision to go solo from that point forward, even if Jason woke up. Convoluted continuity makes for bizarre motivations. As I recall, immediately post- Year One Batman had Bats firing Dick and deciding to work solo (and then illogically hiring Jason, totally inexperienced, a short while later). The transition had been handled so much better by Doug Moench pre-Crisis! Immediately? I'm not sure 🤔 |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 2, 2023 21:15:17 GMT -5
Convoluted continuity makes for bizarre motivations. As I recall, immediately post- Year One Batman had Bats firing Dick and deciding to work solo (and then illogically hiring Jason, totally inexperienced, a short while later). The transition had been handled so much better by Doug Moench pre-Crisis! Immediately? I'm not sure 🤔 Batman Year One ran from issues 404 to 407. In issue 408, Batman fires Dick after he's wounded by the Joker, decides to go solo, and meets Jason Todd (who steaks the hubcaps of the Batmobile). |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 2, 2023 21:33:52 GMT -5
Immediately? I'm not sure 🤔 Batman Year One ran from issues 404 to 407. In issue 408, Batman fires Dick after he's wounded by the Joker, decides to go solo, and meets Jason Todd (who steaks the hubcaps of the Batmobile). Many of the stories from that era, particularly if written by Max Allen Collins or Jim Starlin, are Batman vs wacky aliens era bad. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 2, 2023 21:42:45 GMT -5
Batman Year One ran from issues 404 to 407. In issue 408, Batman fires Dick after he's wounded by the Joker, decides to go solo, and meets Jason Todd (who steaks the hubcaps of the Batmobile). Many of the stories from that era, particularly if written by Max Allen Collins or Jim Starlin, are Batman vs wacky aliens era bad. Bite your tongue! Wacky aliens are awesome! |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Dec 2, 2023 22:32:02 GMT -5
I’d rather face Aparo’s Joker with a crowbar than a damn gray.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 3, 2023 0:08:28 GMT -5
And, more importantly, Batman made the decision to go solo from that point forward, even if Jason woke up. Convoluted continuity makes for bizarre motivations. As I recall, immediately post- Year One Batman had Bats firing Dick and deciding to work solo (and then illogically hiring Jason, totally inexperienced, a short while later). It was either the same issue or the very next one. As bad as it sounds, Mike W. Barr was trying to make a clear point, acknowledging the child endangerment aspect of a boy sidekick and then presenting Bruce with a child who was in greater danger without him, thus (hopefully) justifying Jason to a new generation of readers. I honestly think it was working until Jim Starlin came around and purposefully turned Jason into a d*ck so that fans would want him dead. Much as you know Moench is my favorite writer ever, the transition was handled by his predecessor, Gerry Conway, and it felt forced and obligatory, and not at all logical to me. I think Moench went on to make the bond between Batman and Robin more believable than ever, but he didn't do much to justify Bruce endangering a child. More on all of this can be found here. |
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Post by zaku on Dec 3, 2023 5:04:22 GMT -5
Immediately? I'm not sure 🤔 Batman Year One ran from issues 404 to 407. In issue 408, Batman fires Dick after he's wounded by the Joker, decides to go solo, and meets Jason Todd (who steaks the hubcaps of the Batmobile). Ah yes, you are right. I was referring to the character chronology. I meant in theory he did it years after the events in Year One. |
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Post by zaku on Dec 3, 2023 5:17:48 GMT -5
As bad as it sounds, Mike W. Barr was trying to make a clear point, acknowledging the child endangerment aspect of a boy sidekick and then presenting Bruce with a child who was in greater danger without him, thus (hopefully) justifying Jason to a new generation of readers. This is interesting, because in theory 90% of what happens in a superhero comic would be dangerous and irresponsible in real life. But we accept it because otherwise, well, the genre wouldn't exist at all. The young sidekick has been a classic trope since the early days, until someone said "This is madness!". Of course in real life it is, but in the comics it was a perfectly acceptable career for a preteen. While sometimes it's an interesting starting point for writing stories, other times it just seems like a somewhat cheap method to allow an author to appear edgy. A classic is when someone in the comics says that Batman has mental problems because, in response to a childhood trauma, he goes out at night dressed as a bat to beat up others. Obviously in real life such a person would need to be hospitalized, but in the world of comics this is an absolutely acceptable lifestyle choice. There are limits to wanting to make superhero comics more "realistic", because beyond a certain point the whole house of cards collapses. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 3, 2023 8:29:46 GMT -5
As bad as it sounds, Mike W. Barr was trying to make a clear point, acknowledging the child endangerment aspect of a boy sidekick and then presenting Bruce with a child who was in greater danger without him, thus (hopefully) justifying Jason to a new generation of readers. This is interesting, because in theory 90% of what happens in a superhero comic would be dangerous and irresponsible in real life. But we accept it because otherwise, well, the genre wouldn't exist at all. The young sidekick has been a classic trope since the early days, until someone said "This is madness!". Of course in real life it is, but in the comics it was a perfectly acceptable career for a preteen. While sometimes it's an interesting starting point for writing stories, other times it just seems like a somewhat cheap method to allow an author to appear edgy. A classic is when someone in the comics says that Batman has mental problems because, in response to a childhood trauma, he goes out at night dressed as a bat to beat up others. Obviously in real life such a person would need to be hospitalized, but in the world of comics this is an absolutely acceptable lifestyle choice. There are limits to wanting to make superhero comics more "realistic", because beyond a certain point the whole house of cards collapses. Agreed, but this was early in the post-Watchmen "questioning and de-constructing everything heroic about our heroes is cool" era. |
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Post by zaku on Dec 3, 2023 8:51:03 GMT -5
This is interesting, because in theory 90% of what happens in a superhero comic would be dangerous and irresponsible in real life. But we accept it because otherwise, well, the genre wouldn't exist at all. The young sidekick has been a classic trope since the early days, until someone said "This is madness!". Of course in real life it is, but in the comics it was a perfectly acceptable career for a preteen. While sometimes it's an interesting starting point for writing stories, other times it just seems like a somewhat cheap method to allow an author to appear edgy. A classic is when someone in the comics says that Batman has mental problems because, in response to a childhood trauma, he goes out at night dressed as a bat to beat up others. Obviously in real life such a person would need to be hospitalized, but in the world of comics this is an absolutely acceptable lifestyle choice. There are limits to wanting to make superhero comics more "realistic", because beyond a certain point the whole house of cards collapses. Agreed, but this was early in the post-Watchmen "questioning and de-constructing everything heroic about our heroes is cool" era. Yep. The big problem is that not everyone is Alan Moore 😅 |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 3, 2023 8:56:39 GMT -5
Agreed, but this was early in the post-Watchmen "questioning and de-constructing everything heroic about our heroes is cool" era. Yep. The big problem is that not everyone is Alan Moore 😅 I have no proof to substantiate this, but I've always had the impression this was something fans had been demanding--addressing the issue of child endangerment with Robin--and not something Max Collins just suddenly felt inspired to write. I could be wrong. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 3, 2023 10:28:05 GMT -5
Batman Year One ran from issues 404 to 407. In issue 408, Batman fires Dick after he's wounded by the Joker, decides to go solo, and meets Jason Todd (who steaks the hubcaps of the Batmobile). Ah yes, you are right. I was referring to the character chronology. I meant in theory he did it years after the events in Year One. Oops, my bad. Sorry for misunderstanding. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 3, 2023 10:48:03 GMT -5
The transition had been handled so much better by Doug Moench pre-Crisis! Much as you know Moench is my favorite writer ever, the transition was handled by his predecessor, Gerry Conway, and it felt forced and obligatory, and not at all logical to me. I think Moench went on to make the bond between Batman and Robin more believable than ever, but he didn't do much to justify Bruce endangering a child. More on all of this can be found here. I still credit Moench with the well-written transition. Under Moench, Bruce would not let Jason be his partner at first but eventually relented, which shows an interesting aspect of Batman's character... he knows it's dangerous, but perhaps he needs a Robin to stay connected to his humanity. That's a selfish move, easily rationalized, but a very human one. The added bonus of Dick Grayson showing up to give the new kid his blessing removed any sense of usurpation from the whole process, and gave it a satisfying feeling of coming of age. Once we get passed the admittedly nutty idea that a vigilante dressed as a bat would have a teenage sidekick, the passing of the Robin mantle was movingly written. |
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Dec 3, 2023 11:57:05 GMT -5
shaxper, only tangentially related, but DC is publishing a Death in the Family Special of issue #428 that includes the alternate unused ending from that period it's called From the DC Vaults: Batman-Robin Lives and uses the original Mignola cover art for the issue. There is a blank cover variant and a foil cover variant as well.  -M
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