shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 4, 2024 15:37:30 GMT -5
I don't think readers had that negative a reaction to Robin as he and O'Neil claimed. The letter pages don't seem to be filled with missives attacking the character. Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle hadn't used him in about a year over in Detective Comics and I don't recall readers swarming over to that title for their Robin-free needs. Anecdotally, a lot of folks claim they couldn't stand the brat and wanted him dead. Of course, their reasoning is always either because they read his first Post-Crisis appearance and didn't stick around to see him evolve and quickly soften under Batman's wing, or because they read A Death in The Family.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Apr 4, 2024 16:58:58 GMT -5
I don't think readers had that negative a reaction to Robin as he and O'Neil claimed. The letter pages don't seem to be filled with missives attacking the character. Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle hadn't used him in about a year over in Detective Comics and I don't recall readers swarming over to that title for their Robin-free needs. Anecdotally, a lot of folks claim they couldn't stand the brat and wanted him dead. Of course, their reasoning is always either because they read his first Post-Crisis appearance and didn't stick around to see him evolve and quickly soften under Batman's wing, or because they read A Death in The Family. I don't think he was really all that hated, for one Jason only lost by 72 votes and 320 of those came from a single person and O'Neil said he had met the person who supposedly had set up the auto vote and he didn't even know there was a different Robin, he just hated the character as a kid watching the Adam West show. And that guy wasn't alone as Dick Giordano has said he had met all kinds of fans who said they voted to kill Robin and thought it was the original, and on top of that they were flooded with more hate mail after killing Jason than they had ever received regular mail in the previous five years before the event combined. Again, some of that could have come from casual fans who thought Dick Grayson was dead but still it's not as if he was universally hated.
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Post by Calidore on Apr 4, 2024 18:12:20 GMT -5
However, the whole crowbar scene was just Starlin further stacking the deck against the kid. Were readers really supposed to believe that if you enjoyed having the kid around then you better vote for him to live to get the same type of stories you were enjoying (even if Starlin didn't want you to enjoy them)? It wasn't really a vote to see whether Jason lived or died; it was a vote to see whether readers wanted him to die or just be treated to issue of issue with Batman checking in on him in his coma. I thought the point of that was to help out the creative team by minimizing the extra work they'd have to do for the in-progress follow-up issues depending on how the vote went.
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Post by chadwilliam on Apr 5, 2024 10:29:23 GMT -5
However, the whole crowbar scene was just Starlin further stacking the deck against the kid. Were readers really supposed to believe that if you enjoyed having the kid around then you better vote for him to live to get the same type of stories you were enjoying (even if Starlin didn't want you to enjoy them)? It wasn't really a vote to see whether Jason lived or died; it was a vote to see whether readers wanted him to die or just be treated to issue of issue with Batman checking in on him in his coma. I thought the point of that was to help out the creative team by minimizing the extra work they'd have to do for the in-progress follow-up issues depending on how the vote went.
I see what you mean, but it still isn't playing fair. Having already regressed Jason to the unlikable persona he had matured out of in an effort to encourage readers to hate him, Starlin went a step further by offering less of an enticement for those wanting Robin to live to vote than he did for those wanting him to die. With Jason already on the brink of death after that crowbar scene voters knew that regardless of how the vote went, Robin wasn't going to be part of the titles for a considerable while. Those wanting him dead merely had to call that number to give him the nudge they needed to ensure that this came to pass in the next issue. Those who wanted him to live would be hoping that a year from now, they might see Jason take his first few faltering steps out of a hospital bed. Sort of like having the option of voting either for a candidate to decisively win a race the next day or voting for him to go on to the next round in a year's time. It's still a win or lose situation but one side is hardly being given much incentive to consider their path that much of a victory.
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Post by zaku on Apr 5, 2024 10:41:29 GMT -5
I imagine that the best choice narratively would have been for Robin to simply retire from superhero life, so Batman would have remained a "loner", as in the case of the death of the Boy Wonder.
And by the way, he got beat up with a crowbar. In real life if he doesn't die he will probably remain in a wheelchair.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,864
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Post by shaxper on Apr 5, 2024 22:25:03 GMT -5
I imagine that the best choice narratively would have been for Robin to simply retire from superhero life, so Batman would have remained a "loner", as in the case of the death of the Boy Wonder. Having been there when this happened, a major concern we all had was whether or not it would "stick". If Jason simply retired, someone was eventually going to bring him back. To repeatedly whack him with a crowbard and then blow him up? That MIGHT stick. ...and it ultimately didn't.
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Post by zaku on Apr 6, 2024 2:33:05 GMT -5
I imagine that the best choice narratively would have been for Robin to simply retire from superhero life, so Batman would have remained a "loner", as in the case of the death of the Boy Wonder. Having been there when this happened, a major concern we all had was whether or not it would "stick". If Jason simply retired, someone was eventually going to bring him back. To repeatedly whack him with a crowbard and then blow him up? That MIGHT stick. ...and it ultimately didn't. Well, they live in a world with Lazarus pits and cloning technologies. It actually doesn't make much sense for someone to remain disabled (or dead) for long. I remember it was one of the criticisms of Oracle's character.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 11, 2024 17:34:19 GMT -5
It's not by Mignola but I think it definitely belongs in your collection
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,864
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Post by shaxper on Jul 11, 2024 17:40:18 GMT -5
It's not by Mignola but I think it definitely belongs in your collection Been debating about it. Have you read the first issue?
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Jul 11, 2024 20:34:49 GMT -5
There is a Mignola variant for that issue... I picked up the Mignola variant, I have not had a chance to read it yet. -M
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,864
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Post by shaxper on Jul 11, 2024 22:38:43 GMT -5
There is a Mignola variant for that issue... I picked up the Mignola variant, I have not had a chance to read it yet. -M As much as I adore modern Mignola, I miss the classic pre-Hellboy Mignola look of the original covers so much more.
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Post by silverdollar22 on Aug 8, 2024 15:34:39 GMT -5
Well then, let's get this show on the road... The Curious Case of Qurac (re: A Death in the Family)I've spent the last two days falling deeper and deeper down this rabbithole, and at this point I'm never probably coming back up until I've well and truly exhausted every lead. (So what if half of Comics eBay thinks I'm a weirdo now?) Per Comics.org — which I know is only as reliable as its editorbase, but nobody can say this story isn't a well-documented one — there are 14 pre-digital printings of the ADitF trade in English, plus a couple of oddities (more on those below). Altogether, I think they span from 1988/89 to 2006/7-ish. If the edits I'm looking for (changing of Iran to a fictional country, removal of the Khomeini panel) exist in any print, I expect they're least likely to be in any of the especially early (Starlin got away with the original script for a reason!) or especially late (War on Terror and all) ones. As I touch base with every seller I can find on eBay and beyond, I'll be crossing off the dead-ends one by one. Eventually, one truth will prevail. Or I'll find myself on a one-way trip to Arkham. Either's good. So here's the design for the first round of trades. DC got cute the same way they did with The Killing Joke — color-coded titles for the first five prints. 1st Print (Red): Nope- 2nd Print (Blue)
3rd Print (Green): Nada (Year given as 1989)- 4th Print (Yellow)
- 5th Print (Orange)
6th Print (Grey): Wa-wa-waaaah (Year given as 1992)- 7th Print (Grey)
- 8th Print (Grey)
9th Print (Grey): Bupkis
Now here's the design for the second round: I don't have solid data on when these first started coming out, but I know that the oldest of them still have Jenette Kahn listed in the indicia, putting them at 2002 or earlier. I think that all of them also also hawk DC's website on the back cover, putting them after 1997(ish?). Also of note, these straddle DC's "bullet" and "swoosh" logos, so at least some of them came out after mid-2005. - 10th Print
11th Print: Ix-nay12th Print: Duhhh13th Print: Pbbbbt- 14th Print
Then there's the British version(s?) printed under Titan. Comics.org says there's only two distinct versions, which I'm not sure whether to take at face-value (more likely nobody bothered logging later ones?). Weirdly enough I actually have higher-than-normal hopes when it comes to these, because looking back, one of the major reasons I believe there's a censored print at all is that a Malaysian friend of mine talked about his dad owning a copy with "Syraq" substituted for Iran. Granted he could be misremembering, or maybe that copy was some special locally-edited version, etc... Blue-letter: Sorry, mate- Yellow-letter
And finally there's the Classics Library collection. I think this one only ever had one printing, and its only significance is being the first time ADitF got bundled together with "A Lonely Place of Dying" — which, of course, became the default for every collection thereon. I remember finding this one a dead-end on eBay, but I can't find that specific listing anymore... maybe I'll look into it again...
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 8, 2024 19:52:03 GMT -5
Well then, let's get this show on the road... The Curious Case of Qurac (re: A Death in the Family)I've spent the last two days falling deeper and deeper down this rabbithole, and at this point I'm never probably coming back up until I've well and truly exhausted every lead. (So what if half of Comics eBay thinks I'm a weirdo now?) Per Comics.org — which I know is only as reliable as its editorbase, but nobody can say this story isn't a well-documented one — there are 14 pre-digital printings of the ADitF trade in English, plus a couple of oddities (more on those below). Altogether, I think they span from 1988/89 to 2006/7-ish. If the edits I'm looking for (changing of Iran to a fictional country, removal of the Khomeini panel) exist in any print, I expect they're least likely to be in any of the especially early (Starlin got away with the original script for a reason!) or especially late (War on Terror and all) ones. As I touch base with every seller I can find on eBay and beyond, I'll be crossing off the dead-ends one by one. Eventually, one truth will prevail. Or I'll find myself on a one-way trip to Arkham. Either's good. So here's the design for the first round of trades. DC got cute the same way they did with The Killing Joke — color-coded titles for the first five prints. 1st Print (Red): Nope- 2nd Print (Blue)
3rd Print (Green): Nada (Year given as 1989)- 4th Print (Yellow)
- 5th Print (Orange)
6th Print (Grey): Wa-wa-waaaah (Year given as 1992)- 7th Print (Grey)
- 8th Print (Grey)
9th Print (Grey): Bupkis
Now here's the design for the second round: I don't have solid data on when these first started coming out, but I know that the oldest of them still have Jenette Kahn listed in the indicia, putting them at 2002 or earlier. I think that all of them also also hawk DC's website on the back cover, putting them after 1997(ish?). Also of note, these straddle DC's "bullet" and "swoosh" logos, so at least some of them came out after mid-2005. - 10th Print
11th Print: Ix-nay- 12th Print
13th Print: Pbbbbt- 14th Print
Then there's the British version(s?) printed under Titan. Comics.org says there's only two distinct versions, which I'm not sure whether to take at face-value (more likely nobody bothered logging later ones?). Weirdly enough I actually have higher-than-normal hopes when it comes to these, because looking back, one of the major reasons I believe there's a censored print at all is that a Malaysian friend of mine talked about his dad owning a copy with "Syraq" substituted for Iran. Granted he could be misremembering, or maybe that copy was some special locally-edited version, etc... Blue-letter: Sorry, mate- Yellow-letter
And finally there's the Classics Library collection. I think this one only ever had one printing, and its only significance is being the first time ADitF got bundled together with "A Lonely Place of Dying" — which, of course, became the default for every collection thereon. I remember finding this one a dead-end on eBay, but I can't find that specific listing anymore... maybe I'll look into it again... If you friend is remembering correctly, then it is likely a revision specifically for that market. However, Malaysia is majority Sunni Muslim, not Shiite, like Iran. Singapore has a bigger element of censorship in their media, though they are majority Buddhist and have close diplomatic ties to the US. My gut feeling is that your friend is misremembering and convoluting that story with the Superman stories, revolving around the fictional Qurac; or, more likely, the Detective Comics story in #590, with Abu Hassan, a terrorist from Syraq, who plans to blow up the Houses of Parliament, in London. The comic came out a couple of months before A Death in The Family began, in Batman #426. Within that story, Abu Hassan cannot be arrested, after an attack on a veterans group, in the US, because of diplomatic immunity. It is possible that your friend is combining the two storylines, because of the similarity of the Joker becoming the Iranian ambassador to the UN and having diplomatic immunity. It is equally possible that the friend might have been reading the stories in some kind of omnibus, that combined the stories from Batman and Detective, at that time, or was collecting the individual issues of both, and confused the storylines.
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