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Post by impulse on Mar 1, 2023 18:22:01 GMT -5
I've ruffled some feathers with this before, but I'll repeat it now. "Alternative metal" is so broad as to basically being a meaningless catch-all genre. With that level of variety, there is plenty that I like and plenty that I don't. Some nu-metal I think would fit comfortably under this sub genre. I enjoyed System of a Down a lot in the 2000s. Deftones never did much for me, but that's mostly a me thing. Yeah, I don't actually disagree with that at all, I knew that would be the risk even teeing it up that way. Agreed on some nu-metal fitting in there. For me it's a little that very aspect of what always appealed to me about the "alt" concept...it's stuff that doesn't always fit neatly into established genres, but sort of fits the 90's mood (the 80's party was over!) and surge of experimentation with metal tones. Right off the top of my head I would at least loosely (if not more directly with several) apply to RATM, Korn, Tool, Deftones, Incubus, Chevelle, Godsmack, Disturbed, Slipknot, Stone Sour...but SO many more obviously. Yeah, I agree it was a big experimentation time, so a catch-all was not totally illogical to have. I'd agree with pretty much all of those bands, plus the "many more." Though I'd say Incubus is barely metallic at all, though maybe early on they had some more fitting stuff? I honestly don't remember. Before they became white boy island rock, the first couple Sugar Ray albums would fit right under that experimental, little bit of everything 90s alt-metal label. They had a mix of rock, punk, metal, funk, soul, pop, you name it. They are a surprisingly fun band, at least on those first two albums. I will say, your example is the one Deftones song I do like, ha. I saw them live with Incubus in college. Entertaining enough. On the alt-metal topic, I think some post-grunge fits in here, as well. Again, meaningless catch-all. While most of their music doesn't do it for me, Creed and specifically Mark Tremonti have their moments. I unironically enjoy several songs from their first couple albums, and a handful from 3 and 4. The problem with Creed is they are half Metallica and half Pearl Jam, basically, and I love Metallica, but I *hate* Pearl Jam, so it really varies song to song, ha. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2023 18:40:35 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree it was a big experimentation time, so a catch-all was not totally illogical to have. I'd agree with pretty much all of those bands, plus the "many more." Though I'd say Incubus is barely metallic at all, though maybe early on they had some more fitting stuff? I honestly don't remember. Before they became white boy island rock, the first couple Sugar Ray albums would fit right under that experimental, little bit of everything 90s alt-metal label. They had a mix of rock, punk, metal, funk, soul, pop, you name it. They are a surprisingly fun band, at least on those first two albums. I will say, your example is the one Deftones song I do like, ha. I saw them live with Incubus in college. Entertaining enough. On the alt-metal topic, I think some post-grunge fits in here, as well. Again, meaningless catch-all. While most of their music doesn't do it for me, Creed and specifically Mark Tremonti have their moments. I unironically enjoy several songs from their first couple albums, and a handful from 3 and 4. The problem with Creed is they are half Metallica and half Pearl Jam, basically, and I love Metallica, but I *hate* Pearl Jam, so it really varies song to song, ha. Sugar Ray is a great call! Yep, those early albums were a lot of fun. I have always wanted to like Creed more, Tremonti really is a fine player. But I'm EXACTLY the same as you when it comes to Metallica and Pearl Jam haha. But the big question then...how do you feel about Nirvana? Regarding Incubus, yeah, not always the heaviest band, but a song like this comes to mind where you see them flex a little in that space (and really in and out of it, a little more Chili Peppers like to me in parts!): |
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Post by commond on Mar 5, 2023 17:42:48 GMT -5
I don't think they're technically a metal band, but I've been digging the hell out of Anti Cimex this past weekend.
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Post by impulse on Mar 7, 2023 13:55:50 GMT -5
I have always wanted to like Creed more, Tremonti really is a fine player. But I'm EXACTLY the same as you when it comes to Metallica and Pearl Jam haha. But the big question then...how do you feel about Nirvana? If you want to try to back into them the way I did, these songs make the cut. I was able to enjoy them up front as-is. If you like them, there were a few more Creed songs I was able to ease into after I get a taste for them. Tremonti really is a good player, and I enjoy when he gets out of his alternative influence. - Ode
- Unforgiven
- What If
- Bullets
- Weathered
- Overcome
- Bread of Shame
Nirvana... I like them, but I am so sick of most of their mainstream stuff. The radio just killed it. That said, I like their first album Bleach a lot, and I really like the song Breed. They're good, just overplayed to an extreme. I'll check out some early Incubus. Another decidedly not metal band that has their moments and I wish would lean into it more... Muse. I don't think they're technically a metal band, but I've been digging the hell out of Anti Cimex this past weekend. Threw them on. They sound more hardcore punk than metal, but I dig it. That's one of my favorite ingredients in my favorite metal bands. |
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Post by impulse on Mar 9, 2023 15:43:09 GMT -5
Metallica dropped the third single from their upcoming 72 Seasons album. The song is "If Darkness Had a Son." So, I've been listening to this a lot since it came out, and I like give credit where due. It is definitely growing on me. Will I ever hold this song, or likely any others on the upcoming 72 Seasons album, in the same esteem as their 80s and 90s work? Highly unlikely. Will I be able to enjoy it for what it is - a simple but fun song with some good parts and some less interesting ones, and be grateful that these guys are still together and putting out music 40+ years later? Yes, I will. Will I nitpick it on the internet? Also, yes. In other cool news.... MARTY FRIEDMAN is touring the US NOW and he is coming near me. I missed him last time, but I am going to try hard to make it this time! Even my very much not a metal head wife knows that name and how big a deal this is. |
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Post by impulse on Mar 10, 2023 11:11:19 GMT -5
So, it's a common trope by now for people to say that with how gradual the shift was between rock and metal, and how close they remain, how much overlap there is, etc, that it is basically impossible to define where rock stops and metal begins....
LET'S DO IT ANYWAY!
While the line is wobbly and fuzzy and goes back and forth, and while mainstream rock has shifted much heavier over the years, is there a moment in time, a band, an album, that stands out to YOU as "this is DEFNITELY metal, not just rock" over any others?
I've probably quoted it here before...well, more like badly paraphrased, but a quote that stuck with me is roughly "You can argue whether the first metal song came out before Black Sabbath but you can't argue that it happened after!" I largely agree with that looking back in context of what we consider the heavy metal looking back today. As discussed earlier in the thread, there were tons of examples where bands had their moments, or were considered metal of their day, but metal as we know it and all that came after and from it, absolutely if it wasn't a thing before that song sure was after.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2023 15:34:36 GMT -5
While the line is wobbly and fuzzy and goes back and forth, and while mainstream rock has shifted much heavier over the years, is there a moment in time, a band, an album, that stands out to YOU as "this is DEFNITELY metal, not just rock" over any others? My answer is probably going to sound less than conventional (since it is several years after Sabbath started), but before the reveal, I'd like to give a basis for it. Yet again, I'm probably coming from this largely as a guitar player who thinks about not only bands/albums/songs, but also tone. Specifically the guitar tones that are a key part of the trademark sound of metal. Black Sabbath you could argue had that in spades in terms of a "heaviness" that was both the distorted tones of the gear and eventually the down-tuned effect starting on the 3rd album we've discussed before. But I would also say there was eventually a "heavy tone" that was a little more developed that came later, and set the blueprint for more genres of heavy metal over the years than what Sabbath directly did (though the sludgy doom metal bands obviously still embrace that). And for that reason among others, I pick Judas Priest's Killing Machine as it was released in the UK in 1978 (aka Hellbent for Leather as it was alternately released in 1979 in the USA), as the definitive "metal" sounding landmark in my mind (with the Sabbath albums and others heavily paving the way up to that point). The guitar tones had something extra going on, more compressed and tight low end, the pronounced mid-range, that Marshall snarl on a whole other level in turns of saturation and smooth bite...other albums had gotten close in the past (Priest themselves for instance had been building up to this point with each prior album, Stained Class was getting close for instance), or pretty much there in part (like a specific song here and there). But to apply it musically like Priest did at this point with the level of heavy riffing throughout the album feels like the turning point if I had to pick one (and the 1979 live Unleashed in the East quickly reinforcing this). |
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Post by impulse on Mar 13, 2023 10:33:38 GMT -5
Great answer. I pulled up the album, and I can definitely hear the tone you are talking about, as well as the way the guitars are in the driver's seat like so much of what came after.
While NWOBHM isn't my absolute favorite segment of the metal genre, I find I am definitely more of a Priest than Maiden guy, and this is probably the point where that becomes more pronounced.
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Post by commond on Mar 13, 2023 17:51:47 GMT -5
For me, it all starts with Ace of Spades. That album is a hurricane.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 10:43:32 GMT -5
So we're talking metal metal. Ace Of Spades and Killing Machine are certainly strong contenders (I'm American, but I bought the British import, so I call it Killing Machine, like some kind of metal hipster).
I'll ignore Sabbath, partly because my answer to most questions is "Sabbath", and that's no fun for anybody else, and partly because I'm thinking that an established genre should consist of more than one band who are unquestionably artists of said genre. I've been swayed to the Killing Machine camp. Maybe if Michael Schenker would have been in the Scorpions at the time, Virgin Killer or Taken By Force would have a bit more of a metal edge to make them contenders.
While looking for my own nomination, I just realized that Stained Class and Killing Machine were released in the same year. I thought they were at least a year apart, maybe because I associate Stained Class more with the albums that came before it than I associate it with Killing Machine. My confusion sounds like subconscious evidence that I lean towards Killing Machine being a turning point of some kind. I do remember Halford saying that the NWOBHM guys gave Priest a kick in the arse, so I'm wondering if the sound on Killing Machine was at all inspired by the British music scene (I can't think of any NWOBHM albums released on or before 1978). Or maybe the kick he mentioned was evident on Screaming For Vengeance, when NWOblahblahblah was in full swing.
It is weird to read music articles from the '70s and hearing AC/DC described as metal.
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Post by impulse on Mar 14, 2023 10:58:56 GMT -5
Yes, metal metal, but to you. It's so subjective there is likely to never be a single definitive answer. Most of my favorites came after metal got a punk shot in the arm during the thrash era, but based on what I know, I'm having a hard time arguing for a better choice than Killing Machinebeing when metal became metal and wasn't just rock guys rocking REALLY hard.
Ace of Spades is a good contender, but even Lemmy claimed they were a rock band, not metal, per se. Motorhead is just Motorhead.
And yeah, Steppenwolf, AC DC, Zep, Purple, etc, being described as metal feels very different when being written from the 60s/70s rather than from the 21st century.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 11:21:02 GMT -5
Ace of Spades is a good contender, but even Lemmy claimed they were a rock band, not metal, per se. Motorhead is just Motorhead. Darkseid Motorhead is. (apologies if I already used that for Sabbath) The Chase Is Better Than The Catch - that song channels some kind of primal aspect of the universe. |
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Post by impulse on Mar 14, 2023 11:30:27 GMT -5
Ace of Spades is a good contender, but even Lemmy claimed they were a rock band, not metal, per se. Motorhead is just Motorhead. Darkseid Motorhead is. (apologies if I already used that for Sabbath) The Chase Is Better Than The Catch - that song channels some kind of primal aspect of the universe. I meant the album Ace of Spades by the band Motorhead. Sorry if it came off as I was blaspheming by misnaming Motorhead. Or if you're joking it flew right over my head. I'm tired today.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 11:44:50 GMT -5
Darkseid Motorhead is. (apologies if I already used that for Sabbath) The Chase Is Better Than The Catch - that song channels some kind of primal aspect of the universe. I meant the album Ace of Spades by the band Motorhead. Sorry if it came off as I was blaspheming by misnaming Motorhead. Or if you're joking it flew right over my head. I'm tired today. My fault, the joke was probably too obscure (and lame). "Darkseid is" was a... slogan? rallying cry? Something like that, from Morrison's JLA. Once I got used to the the oddness of it, I took a liking to it. I take the incompleteness of the phrase to mean that fill in anything after it, it doesn't matter, Darkseid is all. So I meant it as a dorky and fanatical rephrasing of your "Motorhead is just Motorhead." "The Chase Is Better Than The Catch" was mostly unrelated to the "Darkseid is" riff, other than being a song off of Ace Of Spades. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 13:25:28 GMT -5
So, it's a common trope by now for people to say that with how gradual the shift was between rock and metal, and how close they remain, how much overlap there is, etc, that it is basically impossible to define where rock stops and metal begins.... LET'S DO IT ANYWAY! While the line is wobbly and fuzzy and goes back and forth, and while mainstream rock has shifted much heavier over the years, is there a moment in time, a band, an album, that stands out to YOU as "this is DEFNITELY metal, not just rock" over any others? I've probably quoted it here before...well, more like badly paraphrased, but a quote that stuck with me is roughly "You can argue whether the first metal song came out before Black Sabbath but you can't argue that it happened after!" I largely agree with that looking back in context of what we consider the heavy metal looking back today. As discussed earlier in the thread, there were tons of examples where bands had their moments, or were considered metal of their day, but metal as we know it and all that came after and from it, absolutely if it wasn't a thing before that song sure was after. An eternal but most interesting debate! Shifting definitions are frustrating for me (frustrating as in “interesting” as a discourse on this is always fun). I could be a pedant but with at least one book claiming metal began with Black Sabbath, and Birmingham being referred to as the Home of Metal (which led to one museum exhibition), I feel I have to go with that. I can’t say AC/DC is a metal band in my world. |
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