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Post by commond on Dec 12, 2023 18:13:45 GMT -5
Sadly, Sam and Dorrie didn't last. They ended up getting divorced. Where did it state that? It was in a tiny 5 page backup story in Fantastic Four #645 written by Karl Kesel. Johnny still has the hots for her and offers to cook her dinner.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 19:16:59 GMT -5
It was in a tiny 5 page backup story in Fantastic Four #645 written by Karl Kesel. Johnny still has the hots for her and offers to cook her dinner. Oh, that makes me feel better then, that came out in 2015 so it doesn't really count. Phew!
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,625
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Post by Confessor on Dec 12, 2023 21:23:23 GMT -5
Sadly, Sam and Dorrie didn't last. They ended up getting divorced. Of course they did. Comic book writers just love breaking up happy things lol. At least they didn't sell their love to Mephisto.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 12, 2023 22:32:09 GMT -5
Of course they did. Comic book writers just love breaking up happy things lol. At least they didn't sell their love to Mephisto. Maybe Satannish?
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 12, 2023 22:39:32 GMT -5
At least they didn't sell their love to Mephisto. Maybe Satannish? I think he only offers time shares.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 12, 2023 22:46:18 GMT -5
RE: JLA/Avengers. Those stories had negotiated plots; you can do this with , say, Wonder Man, but no one can beat Superman and the same with Spider-Man and some others. The big guns were not allowed to be part of the fan voting, in DC vs Marvel and the crossovers had to have approval from the editors on both sides. That is what killed the original JLA/Avengers and the other projects that were in the pipeline behind it (X-Men/Legion); Jim Shooter kept shooting things down, after initially approving the plot; but, the work was being done by a DC crew (Gerry Conway & George Perez), as part of the rotation in these projects. It seemed like Shooter had personal issues with Conway, as he kept throwing roadblocks into things, until Perez had to move on, because nothing was happening. It soured him on working for Marvel, until after Shooter was pushed out. I sometimes wonder if Shooter was messing with Conway as a payback for Conway's short tenure as EIC, or something, though I can't recall if Shooter was working for Marvel full time or not.
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Post by berkley on Dec 12, 2023 23:34:53 GMT -5
Funny thing is, if this crossover had been produced in the late 1960s (arguably the greatest run of the Avengers title), I doubt Marvel would have agreed to DC characters' advantages. I don't know, in the 60s Superman was literally juggling planets. If it had ended up in a slugfest like the crossover in question I doubt the Avengers would have lasted more than a few minutes. I remember when the Avengers fought a Nefaria who had powers that were only a fraction of the Silver Age Superman. He practically humiliated "Earth's Mightiest Heroes". My point exactly: there is a certain number of fans and creators to whom it is of paramount iportance that Superman always be the greatest possible superhero there ever could be. Shooter is one of them and his Nefaria story was, in my view, designed to demonstrate how helpless the Avengers would be if they ever faced the mighty Kryptonian.
This was a deliebrate choice, since there are various versions of Superman and also there are all kinds of different approaches that could be taken - for example, the DC heroes could find themselves powered down while in the MU because that's how things work there. that's just one obvious alternative of many that might have been considered.
OTOH, if you want to have Superman juggling planets then your crossover is just going to devolve into the cheapest kind of fan service, a childish fantasy about how all-powerful Supêrman is.
If the creator's view is that Superman is the ur-superhero and evrything else is a faded imitation, then I would say they're the wrong choice to write such a crossover.
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Post by tartanphantom on Dec 12, 2023 23:35:41 GMT -5
*cough*
I usually don't see eye-to-eyebag with Alan Moore...who's always in a rage when you use his Watchmen characters while he helps himself to Alice In Wonderland, Dorothy from Wizard of Oz and Wendy from Peter Pan and turns them into a bunch of raging nymphomaniacs.
And that's coming from someone who likes a generous helping of ribaldry in her comics....but I digress...
$cr*w that-- If I want that, I'll stick to Cherry Poptart or Frank Thorne's Moonshine McJuggs. At least it's blatantly honest without subverting someone else's classic characters. In this vein, Mickey Rat is an exception-- primarily because it's purposely intended as satire of a classic character.
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Post by berkley on Dec 12, 2023 23:40:15 GMT -5
*cough* I usually don't see eye-to-eyebag with Alan Moore...who's always in a rage when you use his Watchmen characters while he helps himself to Alice In Wonderland, Dorothy from Wizard of Oz and Wendy from Peter Pan and turns them into a bunch of raging nymphomaniacs. And that's coming from someone who likes a generous helping of ribaldry in her comics....but I digress... I have some ambivalence about the series. Moore was trying to do literary pornography, and to my it was poor literature and ... poor pornography although granted everyone's tastes are different. On the other hand, I think the artwork is stunningly gorgeous. And the writing does show a lot of care ... Moore clearly considered this one of his major works and the psychological investment is quite evident.
As much as I admire Moore's writing, it's quite possible I'll never read this: the subject matter doesn't interest me and the artwork isn't especially to my taste. However, I do think Moore and Gebbie undertook the project with serious intent. One of the best reviews I've seen of it wasn't a review at all - it was an evaluation by Canada Customs investigating whether the book should be permitted to be sold in Canada:
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 12, 2023 23:46:44 GMT -5
I’m sure the dead people are terribly concerned about their characters.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 13, 2023 1:01:13 GMT -5
I never read Lost Girls. I tend to read Moore’s stuff through the library, and for some reason I can never find Lost Girls on the shelves. Also been putting off Halo Jones ‘till Moore finishes it but that has been…. A while.
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Post by MWGallaher on Dec 13, 2023 7:31:54 GMT -5
Every couple of years it seems like someone in comics or Hollywood comes up with the "brilliant, fresh" idea to do Alice in Wonderland or Dorothy in Oz, "only it's all creepy and serious and she's actually insane", promoting it as if this were some novel take that we haven't seen over and over again. At least Moore had a different angle: "It's all sexual." Alice, Oz, Robin Hood, Sherlock Holmes, all mined to depletion, over and over.
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Post by zaku on Dec 13, 2023 7:52:47 GMT -5
Well, I've to say that very few MARVEL/DC crossovers were actually good (IMHO of course). Probably my favorite ones are Batman/Hulk and Superman/Hulk.
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 13, 2023 8:26:12 GMT -5
RE: JLA/Avengers. Those stories had negotiated plots; you can do this with , say, Wonder Man, but no one can beat Superman and the same with Spider-Man and some others. The big guns were not allowed to be part of the fan voting, in DC vs Marvel and the crossovers had to have approval from the editors on both sides. That is what killed the original JLA/Avengers and the other projects that were in the pipeline behind it (X-Men/Legion); Jim Shooter kept shooting things down, after initially approving the plot; but, the work was being done by a DC crew (Gerry Conway & George Perez), as part of the rotation in these projects. It seemed like Shooter had personal issues with Conway, as he kept throwing roadblocks into things, until Perez had to move on, because nothing was happening. It soured him on working for Marvel, until after Shooter was pushed out. I sometimes wonder if Shooter was messing with Conway as a payback for Conway's short tenure as EIC, or something, though I can't recall if Shooter was working for Marvel full time or not. The plot for the original JLA:Avengers crossover was flawed. They had Roy Thomas and a few other writers try to fix it. Shooter didn’t have a beef with Conway, I believe his anger was directed at Paul Levitz. Something to do with an earlier crossover.
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 13, 2023 8:27:24 GMT -5
I don't know, in the 60s Superman was literally juggling planets. If it had ended up in a slugfest like the crossover in question I doubt the Avengers would have lasted more than a few minutes. I remember when the Avengers fought a Nefaria who had powers that were only a fraction of the Silver Age Superman. He practically humiliated "Earth's Mightiest Heroes". My point exactly: there is a certain number of fans and creators to whom it is of paramount iportance that Superman always be the greatest possible superhero there ever could be. Shooter is one of them and his Nefaria story was, in my view, designed to demonstrate how helpless the Avengers would be if they ever faced the mighty Kryptonian.
This was a deliebrate choice, since there are various versions of Superman and also there are all kinds of different approaches that could be taken - for example, the DC heroes could find themselves powered down while in the MU because that's how things work there. that's just one obvious alternative of many that might have been considered.
OTOH, if you want to have Superman juggling planets then your crossover is just going to devolve into the cheapest kind of fan service, a childish fantasy about how all-powerful Supêrman is.
If the creator's view is that Superman is the ur-superhero and evrything else is a faded imitation, then I would say they're the wrong choice to write such a crossover.
If I remember the Nefaria story correctly, once Thor opened a dimensional gate with the hammer , he was terrified.
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