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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 9, 2024 9:15:17 GMT -5
I’m not that against the death of Gwen Stacy, but I could have lived without “Sins Past” being published… There is no great super-hero story that a later writer can't #@$ up. ...and it's pretty much certain that one will sooner or later.
Cei-U! I summon yet another reason I don't follow contemporary Big Two comics!
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 9, 2024 9:37:20 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion on whether killing Gwen was a mistake from a creative perspective -- it was already half a dozen years in the past when I first started reading Spider-Man comics, so it's just the way things are, as far as I've always been concerned. It's as much a part of basic Spider-Man lore as Uncle Ben dying to me. What I will say though is that I love the tragedy of it all and the resultant guilt and pathos that it has provided in Peter's life. In that regard, it has made for some great comics over the years. In particular, the grieving that Peter went through in the immediate aftermath of Gwen's death and then the total headf**k of the Gwen Stacy clone turning up a short while later made for some amazingly good, angsty soap opera moments. I also like how it canonised Gwen by framing her as this beautifully doomed innocent in her pre-death appearances and as a haunting archetype of tragically lost young love in the post-death era. Well said, and considering how her father died in his own tragic way (also associated with a Spider-Man conflict), Gwen's death reinforced the idea that as much as Peter tried to carve out some normal part of reality for their relationship to flourish, Gwen and her family would never survive interactions with him, which was powerfully illustrated in TASM #122 (and other issues), where Peter believed he (as the spectre of Spider-Man) would be the curse and final cause of separation from Gwen, through her death.
No other superhero comic of the period (and since, more often than not) had a character who the reader could see as completely innocent, yet he was so damned by his own existence, one he--despite his most noble, heartfelt intentions--would never be able to control. In fact, the more he tried to do what what was right, to fight the good fight, those around him suffered. That was unique to most superhero characters, and for one so innocent (and troubled) such as Gwen to be that ultimate victim of a violent world going on around her (yet she--like the rest of Peter's supporting cast), which she was unaware of, nor would she be able to protect herself from it. TASM of the early 70s was the "captain" of the voyage which matured superhero comics, where consequences were not simply shoved off on random cannon-fodder villains of the month, or faceless creatures, but impacted the lives of the characters who were the major, foundational players of the hero's growth.
Moreover, Gwen's death was not some "shock" one-and-done event; the aftermath--Peter's grief, loneliness and rage (all realistic emotional combinations after the death of a loved one, particularly if the death was due to murder), became the near-smothering (yet sensitively handled) cloak over of Peter's life for the next two years (and would trouble him at various points in the then-far future), only adding to the rarely matched maturity of the 1970s TASM title.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2024 10:19:09 GMT -5
You guys are definitely very eloquent in describing how you felt the impact of the storyline, and I think are hitting strongly on why it means so much to so many people.
I'll give a counterpoint, only in the spirit of debate, not to argue those views are wrong. I think Spider-Man had already gone through plenty of churn over the years, he was always on the brink of running out of money, worried about Aunt May's health, messing up all his relationships both friendly and romantic, portrayed as a hero the public didn't universally love, haunted by his lack of action that could have prevented the death of his uncle, on and on and on. And it shook up some norms, here was a much more "human" character, not some simple idealization of a super human with a fairly generic personality. It's probably a big reason he became such a phenomenon in the first place and why many, including myself, became so attracted to the character (he was the very beginning of comics for me, and still my favorite by far).
I view his relationship with Gwen as something that seemed to be going right for a change, and then here we go again, Pete can't win. Yes, it upped the ante in terms of level of tragedy, more of a shocker than anything that had preceded it. But to me it was just the creative staff clearing the field again, let's write Gwen out and get a boost from that event, and then he was clear to move on to other things. And poor Pete suffers again.
And that to me feels like a soap opera. Nothing ever really "advances", you move from one tragedy to the next. Yes, Peter was depicted as grasping with what had happened and Gwen's death would continue to haunt him. But overall, did the status quo really change that much? Peter was free to date again, he was still a sometimes student and photographer, still a wisecracking superhero, it's not like he turned into the "Dark Knight Spider" as a result.
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Post by Doghouse Reilly on Mar 9, 2024 10:22:22 GMT -5
Before we reach the '90s, the '70s is Spider-Man's weakest decade. There's a scattering of good issues to be found, but out of a couple hundred comics, that's the least you can expect. I was particularly disappointed by Wein's run. Not because the run was relatively worse, but because I like Wein and expected him to raise the bar for the era. (this is from the perspective of buying back issues in the '90s, I only bought a few comics off the stands as a kid in the '70s)
We do have Kane and Romita still on Spidey at the start of the decade, where the art alone makes the issues worth looking at. I have the Kane Spider-Man Artisan Edition which I treasure, and I'm anxiously awaiting the release of volume two of the Romita Artisan edition next month. I don't know what it is about Kane and Spidey. I normally avoid Kane-drawn comics - I often wonder if the people praising him have gone blind. But if he only ever produced his Spidey work, I'd rank him as one of the best. But despite these issues being in the '70s, the majority of these feel a little more like the '60s to me, so I tend to not count them as mitigating the mediocrity of the decade.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,200
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Post by Confessor on Mar 9, 2024 22:20:44 GMT -5
Gwen's death was beautifully written. That's why it's been a constant source of inspiration for creators that followed. It's about as far removed from a soap opera death that I can imagine. If you ask me, it was that type of storytelling that set Marvel apart from DC at the time. I can't imagine a DC comic from 1973 where Superman fails to save Lois Lane from her death. Just a clarification, if you were referencing the post I made immediately before yours, but I'm not using the phrase "soap opera moments" in a disparaging manner, when talking about the events surrounding Gwen's death. I'm just sort of using it as short-hand for the increased angst, guilt and pathos that it brought to the pages of Amazing Spider-Man. I agree that Gwen's death and its immediate aftermath -- not to mention the burgeoning romance between Peter and Mary Jane that occurred against that backdrop -- were beautifully written. I'm a guy who thought Peter already had the perfect gal with Betty... Ha! This made me chuckle. "Damn Spider-Man started going down hill when they killed off Uncle Ben!"
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Post by zaku on Mar 10, 2024 10:19:02 GMT -5
Ha! This made me chuckle. "Damn Spider-Man started going down hill when they killed off Uncle Ben!" I was really happy reading Peter Parker's adventures in high school, but then they had to ruin everything with that stupid "radioactive spider" gimmick! This happens when you run out of ideas!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2024 10:53:24 GMT -5
Ha! This made me chuckle. "Damn Spider-Man started going down hill when they killed off Uncle Ben!" I was really happy reading Peter Parker's adventures in high school, but then they had to ruin everything with that stupid "radioactive spider" gimmick! This happens when you run out of ideas!!!! Well, Gwen didn't show up until issue #31, about 3 years in. Betty showed up in #4 and was prominent during much of the classic Ditko run, so "team Betty" is legit I think. Plus everyone knows the first few years were the best (I'm jesting...sort of).
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 10, 2024 12:42:33 GMT -5
There is no great super-hero story that a later writer can't #@$ up. ...and it's pretty much certain that one will sooner or later.
Cei-U! I summon yet another reason I don't follow contemporary Big Two comics!
The Winter Soldier comic story says hi!
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Post by kirby101 on Mar 10, 2024 13:36:31 GMT -5
...and it's pretty much certain that one will sooner or later.
Cei-U! I summon yet another reason I don't follow contemporary Big Two comics!
The Winter Soldier comic story says hi! Batting 100 isn't a winning percentage.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 10, 2024 14:40:36 GMT -5
Ha! This made me chuckle. "Damn Spider-Man started going down hill when they killed off Uncle Ben!" I was really happy reading Peter Parker's adventures in high school, but then they had to ruin everything with that stupid "radioactive spider" gimmick! This happens when you run out of ideas!!!! Please; everyone knows that Peter Parker's birth ruined that great series of stories about The Parker Couple! You know, if we keep carrying this joke back far enough, we are going to get to, "Everything was great in The Amazing Amoeba, until the cell subdivided!"
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Post by kirby101 on Mar 10, 2024 14:55:07 GMT -5
I am glad Betty got out of that abusive relationship with Peter. He was such a dick to her.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2024 14:55:31 GMT -5
The Betty, Gwen or MJ fest just doesn't compare to Aunt May almost finding love in the many arms of Doc Ock. The old girl still had it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2024 15:03:25 GMT -5
The Betty, Gwen or MJ fest just doesn't compare to Aunt May almost finding love in the many arms of Doc Ock. The old girl still had it. Best comment yet.
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Post by driver1980 on Mar 10, 2024 15:16:11 GMT -5
What I am about to post makes zero sense within the context of a comicbook universe that relies on ongoing adventures, so please bear that in mind.
At times, a part of me thought Parker should have permanently given up the Spidey identity because a) his and other people’s happiness depended on it, and b) there were plenty of other heroes to pick up the slack.
I get the guilt over Uncle Ben and “with great power comes great responsibility” (I really do). But at what point does one “pay their debt”? At what point is it worth the heartache caused to Betty, Aunt May and others, not to mention the effect on Parker’s studies and career?
A real-world analogy for me would be this: a guy joins the police force because of past selfish actions. He spends many years as a beat cop. At some point, the demands of law enforcement affect - badly - his girlfriend, his aunt, others, etc. So, at some point he says, “You know, I’ve been a patrol cop for many years. I’ve arrested lots of criminals, and have served society. But I’m giving it up. There are plenty of other cops, and the force will hire a replacement - or recruit lots of cops soon. But my commitment now needs to be to my girlfriend and aunt.” Who would blame him?
I realise such a scenario with Parker means the end of his exploits. And that’s another issue I guess: the inherent flaws in eternal, ongoing fiction which needs to hook subsequent generations. In a way, it’s why films and TV shows can be better at ending an arc: sooner or later, an actor gets too old and retires, which means on some occasions, the character he plays has to settle down. I thought about this while watching UK cop show A Touch of Frost, where David Jason, who was still playing Detective Inspector Frost in his late sixties, chose to retire; it means we got to see Frost actually end his days as a detective.
Other than maybe “imaginary stories”, we don’t really see a proper finale for superheroes.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 10, 2024 15:34:07 GMT -5
I get the guilt over Uncle Ben and “with great power comes great responsibility” (I really do). But at what point does one “pay their debt”? Never. Peter had to suffer in the worst possible way from his crisis to his sense of moral integrity to realize that the life and well-being of his aunt (and anyone else the Burglar committed crimes against) would have been provably different--arguably happy--if he stopped the criminal when he had the chance. Ben Parker's murder had a permanent negative impact on May's psychological as well as physical health (Peter understood that, and was referred to in many a TASM story), and since Peter is not God, he had no power to rectify that specific, direct blow to May--other than seeing that no one else would suffer in that manner (to the best of his acquired power, since he could not be everywhere). So, Peter--not being able to change the course of history--knew he would never fully pay the debt from his self-created destiny.
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