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Post by kirby101 on Mar 10, 2024 16:06:14 GMT -5
And of course "fighting crime" is a really stupid use of super powers.
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Post by commond on Mar 10, 2024 17:15:35 GMT -5
Gwen's death was beautifully written. That's why it's been a constant source of inspiration for creators that followed. It's about as far removed from a soap opera death that I can imagine. If you ask me, it was that type of storytelling that set Marvel apart from DC at the time. I can't imagine a DC comic from 1973 where Superman fails to save Lois Lane from her death. Just a clarification, if you were referencing the post I made immediately before yours, but I'm not using the phrase "soap opera moments" in a disparaging manner, when talking about the events surrounding Gwen's death. I'm just sort of using it as short-hand for the increased angst, guilt and pathos that it brought to the pages of Amazing Spider-Man. I agree that Gwen's death and its immediate aftermath -- not to mention the burgeoning romance between Peter and Mary Jane that occurred against that backdrop -- were beautifully written. I'm a guy who thought Peter already had the perfect gal with Betty... Ha! This made me chuckle. "Damn Spider-Man started going down hill when they killed off Uncle Ben!" Nah, I was referring to the argument that Gwen's death was a soap opera trope. Admittedly, they were forced to bring her back in soap opera fashion, but even then they managed to do it without bringing her back to life.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 10, 2024 17:31:18 GMT -5
The biggest flaw in classic Spidey (and many other super-hero series), in my opinion, is that he had no confidante who shared his secret and could, if need be, help him maintain it, an Alfred Pennyworth or Tom Kalmaku. True, there wasn't anybody well-suited for that role until Captain Stacy and Joe Robertson came along but there could've been had Stan so chosen and I think there should've been.
Cei-U! I summon the missing link!
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Post by driver1980 on Mar 10, 2024 17:44:22 GMT -5
And of course "fighting crime" is a really stupid use of super powers. I’d agree…sometimes. If I gained the power of flight tomorrow, I might work delivering blood products for a charity in the more congested areas of London, as that’d probably be a good use of powers. Me doing that would be more efficient than a driver doing it in increasingly congested boroughs. But if I had mind-reading powers, I might work for a law enforcement agency, because it’d be useful reading the mind of a criminal who has kidnapped someone - and who has a bomb hidden somewhere. It’d all depend on altruism, of course. If I had powers, I might not want to work in regular jobs where my powers could result in job losses. If I had the powers of the Flash, I might be Royal Mail’s best postman - but if I can deliver a dozen streets in a matter of minutes, Royal Mail would have no reason to employ other postmen, so they’d downsize. And that’d be unfair. All of this is extremely hypothetical, of course.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2024 17:49:07 GMT -5
If I had super powers, I'd catch Lois. Every single time.
Which I might add, technically means Superman was better at his job than Spider-Man was.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,200
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Post by Confessor on Mar 10, 2024 18:57:24 GMT -5
The biggest flaw in classic Spidey (and many other super-hero series), in my opinion, is that he had no confidante who shared his secret and could, if need be, help him maintain it, an Alfred Pennyworth or Tom Kalmaku. True, there wasn't anybody well-suited for that role until Captain Stacy and Joe Robertson came along but there could've been had Stan so chosen and I think there should've been. Cei-U! I summon the missing link! That's a really interesting idea. I don't actually agree, mind you, but still, the idea of Peter taking, say, Robbie Robertson fully into his confidence and having him serve as an older, wiser partner, a la Alfred, is fascinating to entertain. But I think it's precisely Peter's isolation in having to shoulder the burden of his secret identity and the terrible guilt he felt over Uncle Ben's death (and later Gwen's) on his own and on such young shoulders that makes him such a special character. Speaking for myself, it's one of the key aspects that endeared me to the character and made him resonate so much with me when I was an angsty teen and as I moved into my early 20s...and I strongly suspect I'm not alone in that respect among Spidey's fanbase. ...technically means Superman was better at his job than Spider-Man was. Absolutely! And that's exactly why he's about a 50 times more interesting character than Superman. It's his flaws that make Spidey such an interesting and engaging character to follow.
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Post by commond on Mar 10, 2024 19:20:00 GMT -5
...technically means Superman was better at his job than Spider-Man was. Absolutely! And that's exactly why he's about a 50 times more interesting character than Superman. It's his flaws that make Spidey such an interesting and engaging character to follow. Plenty of writers have done sad Superman stories, though. There's a lot you can mine there. Of course not everyone likes their superheroes to be dragged through the mud.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 10, 2024 19:36:56 GMT -5
If I had super powers, I'd catch Lois. Every single time. Which I might add, technically means Superman was better at his job than Spider-Man was. It means Superman is more concerned with constantly chasing after a woman who refuses to stop placing herself in danger, and ignoring the fact she's taking his dedication to her / pulling him away from more serious problems for granted.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 10, 2024 20:20:56 GMT -5
If I had super powers, I'd catch Lois. Every single time. Which I might add, technically means Superman was better at his job than Spider-Man was. Well, Spidey did catch Gwen... It's just that for a brief moment, physics actually worked in a comic-book.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 10, 2024 20:29:16 GMT -5
If I had super powers, I'd catch Lois. Every single time. Which I might add, technically means Superman was better at his job than Spider-Man was. Well, Spidey did catch Gwen... It's just that for a brief moment, physics actually worked in a comic-book. If he’d used transistors or radiation to catch her she’d have become Neck-Stretcher Girl.
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Post by MDG on Mar 11, 2024 10:44:28 GMT -5
The biggest flaw in classic Spidey (and many other super-hero series), in my opinion, is that he had no confidante who shared his secret and could, if need be, help him maintain it, an Alfred Pennyworth or Tom Kalmaku. True, there wasn't anybody well-suited for that role until Captain Stacy and Joe Robertson came along but there could've been had Stan so chosen and I think there should've been. Cei-U! I summon the missing link! But that lack of a confidante works with classic Spidey, who feels the weight of the world on his shoulder and no way to share it--he's the lonely, picked-on, high school kid with nowhere to turn.
What could have been interesting is another 3-4 pages before the spider bite of Peter getting picked on and stewing in "someday they'll all be sorry!" Then his struggle might've been not about making money, but about why he shouldn't lash Flash Thompson to the spire of the Empire State Building for a while and let Flash know that he can choose to beat the crap outta him whenever he decides it's time.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2024 12:03:00 GMT -5
I think Spider-Man is somewhat a more pronounced "what you bring to it personally" type of character. Some people really feel the tragedy side of Peter, that the world is hard and his many trials are what make him compelling. For others it may be more the wisecracking fun side, a hero you just love seeing in action and the banter with his adversaries. The death of Gwen for one person is a captivating depiction of loss and its aftermath, for another it's a lost opportunity for Pete to continue to develop a more mature romantic relationship. For one person Peter in high school might have been a bitter outcast, for another more a gentle intelligent soul who loves science and seems truly loved by his uncle and aunt and vice versa, and this offsets some of the social awkwardness he feels in school.
Some of us may have felt awkwardness in our younger years, and maybe still have some hard feelings about life and relationships. Others may have felt it but became more at ease later on, finding deeper contentment in love and relationships. Some of us love a happy ending, others might love a perpetual tear-jerker.
At the end of the day I think Peter and Spider-Man can be all these things.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 11, 2024 12:53:55 GMT -5
The biggest flaw in classic Spidey (and many other super-hero series), in my opinion, is that he had no confidante who shared his secret and could, if need be, help him maintain it, an Alfred Pennyworth or Tom Kalmaku. True, there wasn't anybody well-suited for that role until Captain Stacy and Joe Robertson came along but there could've been had Stan so chosen and I think there should've been. Cei-U! I summon the missing link! But that lack of a confidante works with classic Spidey, who feels the weight of the world on his shoulder and no way to share it This. Parker and his alter-ego represented the man forever having to carry that emotional / danger-laden boulder up the mountain of life alone, with not another soul ever coming to his aid, or caring to. Classic era Spider-Man was not a member of a team with that kind of support system, and most realistically, he understood that he could not put all of his business "out on the street" so to speak, for fear that it woulod be used against him...and it has been on several occasions. He did not need a confidant, or anyone in on his secret. Part of Spider-Man's great appeal was that he had to figure it all out on his own, and live with consequences alone. He did not need a sidekick, a "pal" or anyone else to wage his war, even if he--being so young--was not always up to the challenge.
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