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Post by rich on Sept 18, 2024 13:50:29 GMT -5
What are everyone's recollections of this period, and thoughts 27 years later? Particularly the first year's worth of each title? It occurred just as I was getting back into monthlies after a hiatus, and seemed to be a return to more traditional Marvel stuff, following on from the hideous excesses of the 90s, which resulted in bankruptcy and ultimately in the Heroes Reborn disaster. The five 'key' books of the reboot were Avengers, Captain America, Fantastic Four, Iron Man and Thor. Here's a quick rundown of the initial creative teams on those: Avengers, by Kurt Busiek, George Perez and Al Vey.  Captain America, by Mark Waid, Ron Garney and Bob Wiacek.  Fantastic Four, by Scott Lobdell, Alan Davis and Mark Farmer.  Iron Man, by Kurt Busiek, Sean Chen and Eric Cannon.  Thor, by Dan Jurgens, John Romita Jr and Klaus Janson.  Quick personal take: FF/Iron Man/Cap all disappointed me by the end of the first year. Losing the brilliant Alan Davis because he had pre-existing commitments at DC was sad for FF, with Claremont and Larocca not bringing what I hoped. Cap started well but the editors sadly chose to idiotically kill a great creative team after 5 issues (again!). Iron Man never got going and was lifeless. Avengers... after a shaky first story, I loved this comic. Brilliant pairing of Busiek and Perez and it was a highlight each month. I also loved the Thor comic, with some of my favourite JRJR/Janson art. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 18, 2024 13:58:45 GMT -5
Iron Man was also Busiek... the art I don't remember (and is not my favorite). I think this was the first time they did a 'is the armor alive' type story. Nothing super remarkable, but a few pretty good stories.
Busiek's Avengers is one of my faves. If I have my time line correctly, this was the 2nd Waid Cap run? The one where he was losing his powers and had an Iron Man suit? That was ok... certainly lead to better things.
Jurgens Thor I remember liking at the time but I don't remember it.
I don't think I read Lobdell FF.. he was not a writer I was a fan of and FF has never been my favorite book.
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Post by rich on Sept 18, 2024 14:10:31 GMT -5
It would be sad if I didn't mention Thunderbolts along with these titles. It was well written, with a silver age vibe, and featured great art too. I never enjoyed Bagley's work more than on this title, inked by Russell.  Coming hot on the heels of Avengers was Avengers Forever, by Busiek/Stern/Pacheco/Merino.  Two excellent comics! |
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Post by rich on Sept 18, 2024 14:17:16 GMT -5
Iron Man was also Busiek... the art I don't remember (and is not my favorite). I think this was the first time they did a 'is the armor alive' type story. Nothing super remarkable, but a few pretty good stories. Busiek's Avengers is one of my faves. If I have my time line correctly, this was the 2nd Waid Cap run? The one where he was losing his powers and had an Iron Man suit? That was ok... certainly lead to better things. Jurgens Thor I remember liking at the time but I don't remember it. I don't think I read Lobdell FF.. he was not a writer I was a fan of and FF has never been my favorite book. I'm glad someone enjoyed Iron Man! Writing and art both seemed bleh, and editorial didn't seem to care. It got worse when Quesada became involved in the title, though. Yes, it was Waid and Garney's second run, after they were interrupted by the Liefeld debacle. I don't recall the story details now. Lobdell I dislike, but he actually did a good job with the first three issues, from memory. They had a much better take on FF than Jim Lee did. Did you read Thunderbolts too? Between that, Astro City and Avengers/Avengers Forever I was a big Busiek fan at the time (despite Iron Man...). |
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Sept 18, 2024 14:50:52 GMT -5
Really enjoyed Avengers at the time, mostly for the Perez art. I dropped it after he left.
Ditto for Thor, although the big reveal after a year or whatever of build up was a letdown at the time. I dropped the book around issue 27 IIRC.
Loved Alan Davis on FF and dropped the book as soon as he left.
Collected Cap for quite a while but remember being not very impressed by it.
I think I tried the first 2 issues of Iron Man and then gave up
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Post by jtrw2024 on Sept 18, 2024 15:07:36 GMT -5
I think Avengers was definitely the strongest title out of the bunch! Spider-man and Hulk re-booted their titles soon after in similar attempts to capture some of the same success they had with the Heroes Return books, but with less than satisfactory results.
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Post by rich on Sept 18, 2024 17:05:57 GMT -5
Really enjoyed Avengers at the time, mostly for the Perez art. I dropped it after he left. Ditto for Thor, although the big reveal after a year or whatever of build up was a letdown at the time. I dropped the book around issue 27 IIRC. Loved Alan Davis on FF and dropped the book as soon as he left. Collected Cap for quite a while but remember being not very impressed by it. I think I tried the first 2 issues of Iron Man and then gave up Similar experience with me for a lot of that. Avengers after Perez went south, and I quit before Busiek's run ended as I wasn't enjoying it so much anymore. The muddy colouring/crap paper of the time didn't help anything either. I stayed a bit longer on Thor, despite having to suffer a couple of issues of Erik Larsen art. I very much enjoyed it the whole time JRJR was on art duties, whether it was Jurgens or Giordano finishing his art. I don't recall Thor being bad writing wise at any point, just uninspiring later on. I somehow remained with Cap until Jurgens wrote that, but found his work as boring as Waid's became on that title. The art also never was as good again as the first 4 issues. For some inexplicable reason I stuck around with FF for much longer than I should have because I ended up liking neither the writing or art. Such a pity because all those comics started well! From what I've heard/read/seen, things got even worse in the years after I dropped all those titles. 😬 (maybe Thor aside, as some people like the later Jurgens years) |
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Post by driver1980 on Sept 18, 2024 17:13:38 GMT -5
Seemed fresh and exciting (I read it a year after the concept debuted via Panini’s UK reprints). Wasn’t keen - and am not keen - on the “wrestler steroid” look that a lot of characters had, but there was enough of interest. One of the UK reprints:  |
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Post by rich on Sept 18, 2024 17:14:18 GMT -5
I think Avengers was definitely the strongest title out of the bunch! Spider-man and Hulk re-booted their titles soon after in similar attempts to capture some of the same success they had with the Heroes Return books, but with less than satisfactory results. Such a pity they didn't do better with those comics :-( Spiderman was uninspiring and Hulk was just bad from what I remember. As much as I like Garney's art when he's on form, I didn't think the inker/colours flattered him, nor was it his best work... I think I lasted 1 issue. I tried again when JRJR/Jenkins took over, but it was possibly worse! Neither of their best work. This period also coincided with the exchange rate dropping, comic cover prices rising, Diamond increasing their international margins, my LCS dropping their loyal customer discount... and me bailing at the prospect of comics suddenly costing almost double! |
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Post by rich on Sept 18, 2024 17:15:06 GMT -5
Seemed fresh and exciting (I read it a year after the concept debuted via Panini’s UK reprints). Wasn’t keen - and am not keen - on the “wrestler steroid” look that a lot of characters had, but there was enough of interest. One of the UK reprints: That's Heroes Reborn... Heroes Return came a year later. |
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Post by driver1980 on Sept 18, 2024 17:19:35 GMT -5
Seemed fresh and exciting (I read it a year after the concept debuted via Panini’s UK reprints). Wasn’t keen - and am not keen - on the “wrestler steroid” look that a lot of characters had, but there was enough of interest. One of the UK reprints: That's Heroes Reborn... Heroes Return came a year later. My bad, I’m conflating the two arcs (if they are arcs as such). |
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Post by rich on Sept 18, 2024 17:28:20 GMT -5
My bad, I’m conflating the two arcs (if they are arcs as such). I tried the Jim Lee drawn FF, but Lee always needed a good writer. The pacing was off and his art was no longer as amazing as on X-Men. He'd lost that spark... |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 18, 2024 17:50:12 GMT -5
I was happy to learn those characters were returning to a semblance of normalcy, and to see Marvel use the Heroes Reborn interlude as as excuse to sweep The Crossing under the carpet and just ignore it.
As for the renewed titles, well... I read the FF's first new issue, which was O.K., and I tried Avengers as well, where Perez's return was a great nostalgic draw. However, the only super-hero comics I was still regularly reading at the time were DC's Legion titles.
I think that by that time, Marvel really needed something to kick-start its major titles. It's not that the super-hero genre was entirely done with, but I didn't know how much I needed something like Alias or Fraction's Hawkeye.
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 19, 2024 16:10:15 GMT -5
I read some of these in a trade paperback from the library years ago and hardly remember them except I didn't care for them at all. I never read any of Marvel's Ultimates line but from the little I know about both of these they strike me as the same thing, Marvel's attempt to somehow do a soft reboot of their comics without calling it a reboot. They know most of these characters have grown stale and any interesting story that doesn't involve true, lasting change, has been done already. But they're too timid to allow real change, like permanently killing off major characters and permanently eliminating long standing heroes, because they'd rather stick with something called "Spider-Man" or "Captain America" simply because they still have some name recognition. I think on an episode of the CCF podcast they claimed Shooter wanted to start killing off heroes when he was editor-in-chief but was overruled by the owners. Artistically, I think you'd be seeing a much better product now if they had, though financially the MCU might never have been as successful.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 19, 2024 21:08:39 GMT -5
Iron Man was also Busiek... the art I don't remember (and is not my favorite). I think this was the first time they did a 'is the armor alive' type story. Nothing super remarkable, but a few pretty good stories. Busiek's Avengers is one of my faves. If I have my time line correctly, this was the 2nd Waid Cap run? The one where he was losing his powers and had an Iron Man suit? That was ok... certainly lead to better things. Jurgens Thor I remember liking at the time but I don't remember it. I don't think I read Lobdell FF.. he was not a writer I was a fan of and FF has never been my favorite book. I'm glad someone enjoyed Iron Man! Writing and art both seemed bleh, and editorial didn't seem to care. It got worse when Quesada became involved in the title, though. Yes, it was Waid and Garney's second run, after they were interrupted by the Liefeld debacle. I don't recall the story details now. Lobdell I dislike, but he actually did a good job with the first three issues, from memory. They had a much better take on FF than Jim Lee did. Did you read Thunderbolts too? Between that, Astro City and Avengers/Avengers Forever I was a big Busiek fan at the time (despite Iron Man...). Coming off the Crossing/Teen Tony/Heroes Reborn it was hard not to. At that point, not horrible was a thrill  . Thunderbolts was a great book until the changed it... I forget Busiek wrote the first couple years.. in my head its a Nicenza book. I know the popular view is Thunderbolts is Marvel's Suicide Squad, but I always thought it tracked more with New Warriors than anything else (which is why I liked it). Also, Avenger Forever essentially fixed the Crossing continuity wise. So Busiek forever is a hero for that |
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