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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 2, 2024 19:21:12 GMT -5
I think it is symptomatic of a larger trend at Marvel (DC, too) to make the characters even more powerful, to have bigger impact in the visuals, when the story doesn't always deliver it. Captain America was supposed to be the peak of human ability, an Olympic athletes Olympic athlete. But, still human. Then, Ultimates has him jumping out of panes without parachutes, unscathed and battling toe to toe with the Hulk. That carried over into the films, as the Hulk and the Abomination are now related to the Super Soldier Formula and experiments to replicate it (which also factored into Ultimate Hulk. Everyone wants their characters to be able to do even more, rather than write a story where the character uses their intellect and skill to solve the problem that raw power cannot. Some writers can handle strategy and problem solving; but, many seem to fall back on just making the character powerful enough for the needs of the plot. That is the kind of thinking that had Superman pushing planets out of orbit, rather than being "more powerful than a locomotive."
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 4, 2024 1:43:46 GMT -5
I think it is symptomatic of a larger trend at Marvel (DC, too) to make the characters even more powerful, to have bigger impact in the visuals, when the story doesn't always deliver it. Captain America was supposed to be the peak of human ability, an Olympic athletes Olympic athlete. But, still human. Then, Ultimates has him jumping out of panes without parachutes, unscathed and battling toe to toe with the Hulk. That carried over into the films, as the Hulk and the Abomination are now related to the Super Soldier Formula and experiments to replicate it (which also factored into Ultimate Hulk. Everyone wants their characters to be able to do even more, rather than write a story where the character uses their intellect and skill to solve the problem that raw power cannot. Some writers can handle strategy and problem solving; but, many seem to fall back on just making the character powerful enough for the needs of the plot. That is the kind of thinking that had Superman pushing planets out of orbit, rather than being "more powerful than a locomotive." It's definitely true that most heroes undergo a kind of power inflation over time. I think it's kind of an arms race. They up the power on one hero, then another and suddenly you have to start doing it for all the heroes or a hero who looked pretty impressive in the 1960s suddenly looks like a 3rd rater in the present day. |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 23, 2024 18:25:08 GMT -5
Very cool that you knew Gene LeBell - I envy you getting to hear those stories!
I wonder - if MMA had been more well-known when Doug Moench and Gene Day were doing MoKF, would Rufus Carter (I think that was the name?) have been an MMA fighter rather than a kick-boxer? I haven't seen too many modern comics that deal with martial arts-type characters so I have no idea if they've tried to incorporate MMA styles or grappling moves into their fight scenes. I've seen it in some movies but even there not as often as one might expect, given the growing prominence of the UFC over the last 20 years or so. Is it simply a matter of punches and kicks being more visually appealing? Or is it that comics artists (and film fight choreographers) haven't kept up with the times? But maybe it is being done and I just haven't seen enough action movies or read the right comics the last few years.
Oh absolutely, the visual appeal plays a major role in what we choose to show. In a Youtube video, Michael Jay White demonstrated how an easily blocked roundhouse kick to the head looked much better than a far more efficient feint that ends up as a straight kick. That feint, more useful in a real fight, actually looked kind of sloppy when seen from a distance. Most grappling techniques would probably be in the same boat; they work great, but can look kind of boring to the uninitiated. Heck, judo introduced blue gis (bleah) several years ago because the public at the Olympics had a hard time telling what was going on! Shang Chi did fight a grappler or two, though more of the sumo variety, to emphasize the size. Never faced a real submission wrestler, though. That could have been interesting, but hard to convey visually, in an exciting fashion. Probably the artist who could best do it is Jaime Hernandez, as he captured pro wrestling beautifully in Love & Rockets and, especially, Whoa, Nellie! He mainly hit the highpoints of the move and I would think that would probably be the best approach, for an MMA-style fight, in a comic book layout. Otherwise, you have two guys on the ground, which is the same problem of long dialogue scenes of static images. Vis a vis the conversation we were having in this thread a few weeks ago about depicting grappling vs striking in comics art, I came across this today. I think it's a self-published comic from Patrick Wang, a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Although a couple of sketches I saw of interior panels show ground fighting, I find it interesting he chose to depict what's clearly a stand up striking type move on the cover. I think comic artists, not to mention film directors, simply recognize that depicting stand up fighting tends to appear more dynamic than ground fighting and is what draws viewers in.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 23, 2024 19:58:26 GMT -5
Which, that is what UFC audiences wanted, as they used to boo when it went to the ground and they worked from the guard, unless they were pounding someone in the head.
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Post by berkley on Sept 23, 2024 22:52:30 GMT -5
It just occurred to me that one of the Challengers of the Unknown was a wrestling champion, wasn't he? While the other guys were test pilots, scientists, etc. Was his wrestling ability ever made use of in any stories? From what I can recall it was never made part of his core identity in the sense seeing him display his prowess in hand-to-hand combat scenes or anything like that. Perhaps that's something that might be looked at if they revived the series.
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Post by rich on Sept 24, 2024 5:13:26 GMT -5
The first to come to mind has to be Superman fighting Batman in Dark Knight Returns. In fact, when I think about internal art from any comic, the page where their fight is about to begin is amongst the first my mind conjures.
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 24, 2024 23:35:39 GMT -5
Which, that is what UFC audiences wanted, as they used to boo when it went to the ground and they worked from the guard, unless they were pounding someone in the head. Absolutely. But one thing I'd add is, if you've ever been to a live MMA fight, unless you are literally seated right up next to the cage and the fighters go to the ground directly in front of you, you can't see what's happening at all when they're grounded. So it's hard to blame people booing when they can't see the action. Personally, I'd never pay to go to an MMA fight. If I'm not cornering someone or being paid to write about it, I'll stay home and watch on TV where I can actually see the action without looking up at the jumbotron. |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 25, 2024 0:07:31 GMT -5
This is from memory so correct me if I have it wrong, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that some of the older generations of artists would go to sporting events, including boxing matches, in order to practice drawing action scenes. Gene Colan and John Buscema are the names that come into my head but I can't say for sure if I'm remembering this accurately or where I read it. But I've often had the feeling that more superhero and action comics artists should do this kind of thing. Maybe they all do, for all I know, but it sure doesn't look like it. And with the advantages we have to day of online video that can paused, etc, there's really no excuse. I think I read that Paul Gulacy had to make strenuous efforts back in 70s to watch Enter the Dragon someplace where he could stop it and look at how the fight scenes were designed frame by frame. Now we can do it at our own desktops. Kirby was the only one I can think of, who did it regularly. There are examples of grappling in the early Captain America stories, in Tales of Suspense and some judo throws. Jaime Hernandez depicted pro wrestling, in Love and Rockets, in a few storylines, then did the mini-series Whoa, Nellie!, where the characters Gina and Xochitl are a tag team and he filled it with accurate moves and holds (of the show variety), usually spots that emphasized action. There was a pro wrestler, Ted Lewin (younger brother of Don and Maniac Mark Lewin), who did it to help pay for his art schooling and began to sell paintings to men's adventure magazines, while still wrestling. He depicted things like wristlocks and throws in his work, which got comments from the boys, because it was accurate, so they knew it was his work. He had a couple of examples in his YA memoir, I Was a Teenage Pro Wrestler, which was published around the turn of the Millennium, during the wrestling boom at that point. He never worked in comics, mostly doing book and magazine illustration, but brought that to some things. So jtrw2024's Spider-Man review thread made me look at an old Marvel Tales that contained the Kingpin's first appearance. I had it as a kid but haven't looked at it in years. I found this little sequence interesting. The artist, John Romita Sr., is perfectly depicting a goon going into a standing double wristlock/hammerlock/kimura lock hold. I can only imagine he got this from watching pro wrestling back then. Very good depiction of the hold (in a real fight, if you can lock your hands together, the finish would be dropping to your back while entangling the opponent's legs and wrenching his arm behind him, or pivoting and arching back to throw the opponent with the arm hold). Also interesting the second goon looks like he's preparing to deliver a classic, old-fashioned karate chop to the back of Spidey's neck.
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