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Post by Yasotay on Aug 31, 2024 2:08:28 GMT -5
This is from memory so correct me if I have it wrong, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that some of the older generations of artists would go to sporting events, including boxing matches, in order to practice drawing action scenes. Gene Colan and John Buscema are the names that come into my head but I can't say for sure if I'm remembering this accurately or where I read it. But I've often had the feeling that more superhero and action comics artists should do this kind of thing. Maybe they all do, for all I know, but it sure doesn't look like it. And with the advantages we have to day of online video that can paused, etc, there's really no excuse. I think I read that Paul Gulacy had to make strenuous efforts back in 70s to watch Enter the Dragon someplace where he could stop it and look at how the fight scenes were designed frame by frame. Now we can do it at our own desktops. I know Kirby was a fan of boxing and wrestling, plus he had trained in hand-to-hand combat, in the Army and would accurately depict judo holds and throws in things like Sgt Fury (especially the Captain America issue, when you see the Howlers training). Most of those guys living in and around New York would give easy access to regular fight cards. I had seen an old thread on here where some of those images were posted (maybe by you?) and I was surprised how accurately some of the holds were depicted.
I'm no artist but I'd have to imagine drawing two people locked up in an intricate grappling hold is just more time consuming than simply showing one guy throwing a punch and the other guy flying backwards. That, combined with the more dynamic look of strikes compared to wrestling, may be why you just don't see grappling depicted as much in comics.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 31, 2024 4:56:46 GMT -5
This was a great mix up in Shang Chi MOKF 16  |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 31, 2024 4:58:28 GMT -5
The fight between Thor and the Hulk in JIM # 112 was totally macho.  |
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 31, 2024 7:11:35 GMT -5
I know Kirby was a fan of boxing and wrestling, plus he had trained in hand-to-hand combat, in the Army and would accurately depict judo holds and throws in things like Sgt Fury (especially the Captain America issue, when you see the Howlers training). Most of those guys living in and around New York would give easy access to regular fight cards. I had seen an old thread on here where some of those images were posted (maybe by you?) and I was surprised how accurately some of the holds were depicted.
I'm no artist but I'd have to imagine drawing two people locked up in an intricate grappling hold is just more time consuming than simply showing one guy throwing a punch and the other guy flying backwards. That, combined with the more dynamic look of strikes compared to wrestling, may be why you just don't see grappling depicted as much in comics.
Kirby was the only one I can think of, who did it regularly. There are examples of grappling in the early Captain America stories, in Tales of Suspense and some judo throws. Jaime Hernandez depicted pro wrestling, in Love and Rockets, in a few storylines, then did the mini-series Whoa, Nellie!, where the characters Gina and Xochitl are a tag team and he filled it with accurate moves and holds (of the show variety), usually spots that emphasized action. There was a pro wrestler, Ted Lewin (younger brother of Don and Maniac Mark Lewin), who did it to help pay for his art schooling and began to sell paintings to men's adventure magazines, while still wrestling. He depicted things like wristlocks and throws in his work, which got comments from the boys, because it was accurate, so they knew it was his work. He had a couple of examples in his YA memoir, I Was a Teenage Pro Wrestler, which was published around the turn of the Millennium, during the wrestling boom at that point. He never worked in comics, mostly doing book and magazine illustration, but brought that to some things. |
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Post by Yasotay on Aug 31, 2024 12:21:29 GMT -5
This was a great mix up in Shang Chi MOKF 16 The first, and only, time I saw M'Nai until I read this MOKF a few years ago, was when Kang brought him back to fight the Avengers as part of the Legion of the Unliving. He just seemed like some random, evil martial arts guy dressed from head to toe in black. I had no idea about his tragic backstory or that he was even supposed to be African. |
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Post by Yasotay on Aug 31, 2024 12:29:24 GMT -5
The fight between Thor and the Hulk in JIM # 112 was totally macho. It's always annoyed me that, in recent years, they've started to consistently depict the Hulk as more powerful than Thor when, historically, they were always of at least equal power. I even recall a What If where the Hulk had gone totally berserk so they fought and Thor had no choice but to kill him. |
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Post by Yasotay on Aug 31, 2024 12:33:05 GMT -5
I had seen an old thread on here where some of those images were posted (maybe by you?) and I was surprised how accurately some of the holds were depicted.
I'm no artist but I'd have to imagine drawing two people locked up in an intricate grappling hold is just more time consuming than simply showing one guy throwing a punch and the other guy flying backwards. That, combined with the more dynamic look of strikes compared to wrestling, may be why you just don't see grappling depicted as much in comics.
Kirby was the only one I can think of, who did it regularly. There are examples of grappling in the early Captain America stories, in Tales of Suspense and some judo throws. Jaime Hernandez depicted pro wrestling, in Love and Rockets, in a few storylines, then did the mini-series Whoa, Nellie!, where the characters Gina and Xochitl are a tag team and he filled it with accurate moves and holds (of the show variety), usually spots that emphasized action. There was a pro wrestler, Ted Lewin (younger brother of Don and Maniac Mark Lewin), who did it to help pay for his art schooling and began to sell paintings to men's adventure magazines, while still wrestling. He depicted things like wristlocks and throws in his work, which got comments from the boys, because it was accurate, so they knew it was his work. He had a couple of examples in his YA memoir, I Was a Teenage Pro Wrestler, which was published around the turn of the Millennium, during the wrestling boom at that point. He never worked in comics, mostly doing book and magazine illustration, but brought that to some things. I remember the name Mark Lewin, though only from the old wrestling magazines I read as a kid. I had never heard of his brothers, if they were real. I was vaguely disappointed years ago when I found out most of the pro wrestling "brothers" weren't actually related. I still like to think of Superstar Billy Graham, Crazy Luke Graham and all the other Grahams as brothers, even if they weren't. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 31, 2024 18:10:35 GMT -5
Kirby was the only one I can think of, who did it regularly. There are examples of grappling in the early Captain America stories, in Tales of Suspense and some judo throws. Jaime Hernandez depicted pro wrestling, in Love and Rockets, in a few storylines, then did the mini-series Whoa, Nellie!, where the characters Gina and Xochitl are a tag team and he filled it with accurate moves and holds (of the show variety), usually spots that emphasized action. There was a pro wrestler, Ted Lewin (younger brother of Don and Maniac Mark Lewin), who did it to help pay for his art schooling and began to sell paintings to men's adventure magazines, while still wrestling. He depicted things like wristlocks and throws in his work, which got comments from the boys, because it was accurate, so they knew it was his work. He had a couple of examples in his YA memoir, I Was a Teenage Pro Wrestler, which was published around the turn of the Millennium, during the wrestling boom at that point. He never worked in comics, mostly doing book and magazine illustration, but brought that to some things. I remember the name Mark Lewin, though only from the old wrestling magazines I read as a kid. I had never heard of his brothers, if they were real. I was vaguely disappointed years ago when I found out most of the pro wrestling "brothers" weren't actually related. I still like to think of Superstar Billy Graham, Crazy Luke Graham and all the other Grahams as brothers, even if they weren't. Don Lewin was the oldest and wrestled through at least the mid-1970s, before retiring. Mark Lewin was the big star, especially in Detroit, in bloody battles with The Sheik. He was a star on the West Coast, as well, in Japan and worked in Florida and Texas. He was part of the Florida crew, in the mid-80s, when Kevin Sullivan did his demonic cult leader thing, with Lewin being called The Purple Haze, emerging from the ocean, in a filmed insert, like he had been called forth from the ocean, by Sullivan. He married a woman of wealth and status, from Indonesia or Singapore or something like that and was living on a private island. He was a big babyface in Detroit and worked heel a lot, muscular build, as he aged (always powerful in the chest and shoulder area). Big draw in Australia and New Zealand, during their wrestling boom. The brothers were always fans and their sister started dating wrestler Danny McShain and then married him and he helped them break in. Don and Mark did a lot of tag action, and then Mark went off on his own. Once Ted complete his art studies and gained enough commercial work, he left it behind. He illustrated several children's books, too. The Brothers gimmick was always a way to break in a rookie, with a veteran , or help get a guy over by linking him to an established star. There were legit ones though, like the Funk Brothers (Dory & Terry), The Von Erichs (Fritz kid; Fritz and Waldo were kayfabe brothers), The Harts (Bret, Owen and the rest), the Armstrongs (Brad, Steve, Scott and Brian, aka Road Dogg). Greg Valentine was originally billed as Johnny Valentine's brother, rather than his legit son. Gorgeous Jimmy Garvin was actually Ron Garvin's stepson and neither was related to Terry Garvin. The Poffos were legit brothers (Leaping Lanny Poffo, aka The Genius and Macho Man Randy Savage) and their father was Angelo Poffo, who had been a star in the midwest (Chicago, Indianapolis, Detroit), though there were at least two "revelations" in different promotions, about them being brothers. Buzz Sawyer had a legit brother, Brett, who had worked under the name Brett Wayne, in Portland and then Georgia, before they revealed on air that they were brothers, in an angle to turn Buzz babyface (such as you could for a guy who was legitimately psychotic and a crook). If they weren't brothers, then they were cousins. When Ric Flair debuted in the Carolinas, in the 70s, they claimed he was a cousin to the Andersons (neither of whom were related, but billed as brothers, and only was legitimately named Anderson{Gene}) |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 1, 2024 12:49:56 GMT -5
I remember the name Mark Lewin, though only from the old wrestling magazines I read as a kid. I had never heard of his brothers, if they were real. I was vaguely disappointed years ago when I found out most of the pro wrestling "brothers" weren't actually related. I still like to think of Superstar Billy Graham, Crazy Luke Graham and all the other Grahams as brothers, even if they weren't. Don Lewin was the oldest and wrestled through at least the mid-1970s, before retiring. Mark Lewin was the big star, especially in Detroit, in bloody battles with The Sheik. He was a star on the West Coast, as well, in Japan and worked in Florida and Texas. He was part of the Florida crew, in the mid-80s, when Kevin Sullivan did his demonic cult leader thing, with Lewin being called The Purple Haze, emerging from the ocean, in a filmed insert, like he had been called forth from the ocean, by Sullivan. He married a woman of wealth and status, from Indonesia or Singapore or something like that and was living on a private island. He was a big babyface in Detroit and worked heel a lot, muscular build, as he aged (always powerful in the chest and shoulder area). Big draw in Australia and New Zealand, during their wrestling boom. The brothers were always fans and their sister started dating wrestler Danny McShain and then married him and he helped them break in. Don and Mark did a lot of tag action, and then Mark went off on his own. Once Ted complete his art studies and gained enough commercial work, he left it behind. He illustrated several children's books, too. The Brothers gimmick was always a way to break in a rookie, with a veteran , or help get a guy over by linking him to an established star. There were legit ones though, like the Funk Brothers (Dory & Terry), The Von Erichs (Fritz kid; Fritz and Waldo were kayfabe brothers), The Harts (Bret, Owen and the rest), the Armstrongs (Brad, Steve, Scott and Brian, aka Road Dogg). Greg Valentine was originally billed as Johnny Valentine's brother, rather than his legit son. Gorgeous Jimmy Garvin was actually Ron Garvin's stepson and neither was related to Terry Garvin. The Poffos were legit brothers (Leaping Lanny Poffo, aka The Genius and Macho Man Randy Savage) and their father was Angelo Poffo, who had been a star in the midwest (Chicago, Indianapolis, Detroit), though there were at least two "revelations" in different promotions, about them being brothers. Buzz Sawyer had a legit brother, Brett, who had worked under the name Brett Wayne, in Portland and then Georgia, before they revealed on air that they were brothers, in an angle to turn Buzz babyface (such as you could for a guy who was legitimately psychotic and a crook). If they weren't brothers, then they were cousins. When Ric Flair debuted in the Carolinas, in the 70s, they claimed he was a cousin to the Andersons (neither of whom were related, but billed as brothers, and only was legitimately named Anderson{Gene}) Don't forget the Briscos.
There was a very entertaining series on the Vice Channel called Tales from the Territories that talked about wrestling back in the 1970s and early 80s before the WWE took over everything. As a little kid at that time, I'd watch the old WWWF broadcasts here in the northeast. But when I'd occasionally read a wrestling magazine, they'd talk about the wrestlers in those other territories and I had no idea who they were or why they weren't shown on the local TV broadcast because nothing was ever said about exclusive territories. Watching Tales from the Territories, it was neat to see more about the wrestlers and regions I only read about as a kid.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 1, 2024 19:51:52 GMT -5
Don Lewin was the oldest and wrestled through at least the mid-1970s, before retiring. Mark Lewin was the big star, especially in Detroit, in bloody battles with The Sheik. He was a star on the West Coast, as well, in Japan and worked in Florida and Texas. He was part of the Florida crew, in the mid-80s, when Kevin Sullivan did his demonic cult leader thing, with Lewin being called The Purple Haze, emerging from the ocean, in a filmed insert, like he had been called forth from the ocean, by Sullivan. He married a woman of wealth and status, from Indonesia or Singapore or something like that and was living on a private island. He was a big babyface in Detroit and worked heel a lot, muscular build, as he aged (always powerful in the chest and shoulder area). Big draw in Australia and New Zealand, during their wrestling boom. The brothers were always fans and their sister started dating wrestler Danny McShain and then married him and he helped them break in. Don and Mark did a lot of tag action, and then Mark went off on his own. Once Ted complete his art studies and gained enough commercial work, he left it behind. He illustrated several children's books, too. The Brothers gimmick was always a way to break in a rookie, with a veteran , or help get a guy over by linking him to an established star. There were legit ones though, like the Funk Brothers (Dory & Terry), The Von Erichs (Fritz kid; Fritz and Waldo were kayfabe brothers), The Harts (Bret, Owen and the rest), the Armstrongs (Brad, Steve, Scott and Brian, aka Road Dogg). Greg Valentine was originally billed as Johnny Valentine's brother, rather than his legit son. Gorgeous Jimmy Garvin was actually Ron Garvin's stepson and neither was related to Terry Garvin. The Poffos were legit brothers (Leaping Lanny Poffo, aka The Genius and Macho Man Randy Savage) and their father was Angelo Poffo, who had been a star in the midwest (Chicago, Indianapolis, Detroit), though there were at least two "revelations" in different promotions, about them being brothers. Buzz Sawyer had a legit brother, Brett, who had worked under the name Brett Wayne, in Portland and then Georgia, before they revealed on air that they were brothers, in an angle to turn Buzz babyface (such as you could for a guy who was legitimately psychotic and a crook). If they weren't brothers, then they were cousins. When Ric Flair debuted in the Carolinas, in the 70s, they claimed he was a cousin to the Andersons (neither of whom were related, but billed as brothers, and only was legitimately named Anderson{Gene}) Don't forget the Briscos.
There was a very entertaining series on the Vice Channel called Tales from the Territories that talked about wrestling back in the 1970s and early 80s before the WWE took over everything. As a little kid at that time, I'd watch the old WWWF broadcasts here in the northeast. But when I'd occasionally read a wrestling magazine, they'd talk about the wrestlers in those other territories and I had no idea who they were or why they weren't shown on the local TV broadcast because nothing was ever said about exclusive territories. Watching Tales from the Territories, it was neat to see more about the wrestlers and regions I only read about as a kid.
Yeah, I watched that, though the episode about Polynesian Pacific was a bunch of propaganda and not even remotely accurate. Big surprise with the Rock as executive producer on the series. I grew up in Central Illinois and we were kind of in a dead zone, as far as wrestling territories. You had St Louis, but they didn't promote outside the city. To the North was Chicago, with the AWA/WWA mix, but didn't come down our way, much and then Indianapolis, which occasionally promoted in Springfield, but we only got their tv when they were putting on a show and then it disappeared after. My grandparents lived in Bloomington, IL and their local tv came out of Peoria and that station carried the Indianapolis All-Star Wrestling tv show, weekly, and they promoted shows in that city, fairly often. At one point, I think we briefly got the Chicago tv program, with Bob Luce hosting, as I recall seeing matches with Jos LeDuc, who was working for the AWA, and Kim Duk (Tiger Chung Lee) who was in Indianapolis, on the same program. Around 1981, we got the Poffo ICW tv, on a weekly basis and they started promoting shows in Decatur and Springfield, at least once a quarter. That was what made me a wrestling fan. I got to see Memphis, when I visited my other grandparents, in southern Illinois, from an Evanston, IN station. Our town was wired for cable in the summer of 1982 and I then got to see Georgia, on WTBS. Caught a little Southwestern, on the USA Network, at my grandparents, in Bloomington, as they had cable earlier. Also first saw the WWF there, in '82, when Vince Sr was still running it, with the MSG cards. Caught a rookie Curt Hennig against rookie Eddie Gilbert and then, on another show, Tiger Mask, in a match. The first card had a main event of Backlund vs Snuka, which led to their cage match. Second card had Backlund against either Superstar Billy Graham, in the kung fu gimmick, or Big John Studd. Saw All-American after it took over the Sunday slot, from Southwest Championship and Vince would show matches from other territories, of guys who would ultimately go to the WWF (like Brian Blair and Paul Orndorff). Saw Black Saturday go down in Georgia, after stuff like the Road Warriors debut, and then Mid-South being broadcast on WTBS, while Vince's ratings were tanking. Then when Crockett took over. I was in Athens, GA, in 1988, for a naval school and got to watch the big Superstars of Wrestling 8 hour bloc, on WATL, with Joe Pedicino and Bonnie Blackstone hosting. That had Crockett, WWF, Memphis, USA-Knoxville, Continental Wrestling Federation, Puerto Rico and Southern Championship Wrestling (Georgia indy, promoted by Crusher Jerry Blackwell) Watched the AWA run on ESPN, then World Class, then Global Wrestling Federation. Started reading the mags circa 1983, mostly the Apter mags, but some of the others, like Main Event Wrestling, Wrestling Eye (my favorite) New Wave Wrestling, and the occasional Starlog-published wrestling mag (Wrestling Superstars or their bigger ones). So, a little in the 70s, lot of territorial stuff in the 80s (such as remained) and WCW and WWF, in the 90s. ECW when they went on TNN, a little TNA, Billy Corgan's NWA Powerrr show, on Youtube and that has been it, since. Burnt out on WWF by the time the Invasion angle petered out. Use to get some tapes of Japan and Mexico, a few compilations and shoot interviews. Guys like Tiger Mask, Jushin Liger, Ultimo Dragon, big shows like the Super J Cup and the J Crown Tournament, When Worlds Collide. Early UFC and Pride, for MMA. |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 2, 2024 2:07:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I watched that, though the episode about Polynesian Pacific was a bunch of propaganda and not even remotely accurate. Big surprise with the Rock as executive producer on the series. I grew up in Central Illinois and we were kind of in a dead zone, as far as wrestling territories. You had St Louis, but they didn't promote outside the city. To the North was Chicago, with the AWA/WWA mix, but didn't come down our way, much and then Indianapolis, which occasionally promoted in Springfield, but we only got their tv when they were putting on a show and then it disappeared after. My grandparents lived in Bloomington, IL and their local tv came out of Peoria and that station carried the Indianapolis All-Star Wrestling tv show, weekly, and they promoted shows in that city, fairly often. At one point, I think we briefly got the Chicago tv program, with Bob Luce hosting, as I recall seeing matches with Jos LeDuc, who was working for the AWA, and Kim Duk (Tiger Chung Lee) who was in Indianapolis, on the same program. Around 1981, we got the Poffo ICW tv, on a weekly basis and they started promoting shows in Decatur and Springfield, at least once a quarter. That was what made me a wrestling fan. I got to see Memphis, when I visited my other grandparents, in southern Illinois, from an Evanston, IN station. Our town was wired for cable in the summer of 1982 and I then got to see Georgia, on WTBS. Caught a little Southwestern, on the USA Network, at my grandparents, in Bloomington, as they had cable earlier. Also first saw the WWF there, in '82, when Vince Sr was still running it, with the MSG cards. Caught a rookie Curt Hennig against rookie Eddie Gilbert and then, on another show, Tiger Mask, in a match. The first card had a main event of Backlund vs Snuka, which led to their cage match. Second card had Backlund against either Superstar Billy Graham, in the kung fu gimmick, or Big John Studd. Saw All-American after it took over the Sunday slot, from Southwest Championship and Vince would show matches from other territories, of guys who would ultimately go to the WWF (like Brian Blair and Paul Orndorff). Saw Black Saturday go down in Georgia, after stuff like the Road Warriors debut, and then Mid-South being broadcast on WTBS, while Vince's ratings were tanking. Then when Crockett took over. I was in Athens, GA, in 1988, for a naval school and got to watch the big Superstars of Wrestling 8 hour bloc, on WATL, with Joe Pedicino and Bonnie Blackstone hosting. That had Crockett, WWF, Memphis, USA-Knoxville, Continental Wrestling Federation, Puerto Rico and Southern Championship Wrestling (Georgia indy, promoted by Crusher Jerry Blackwell) Watched the AWA run on ESPN, then World Class, then Global Wrestling Federation. Started reading the mags circa 1983, mostly the Apter mags, but some of the others, like Main Event Wrestling, Wrestling Eye (my favorite) New Wave Wrestling, and the occasional Starlog-published wrestling mag (Wrestling Superstars or their bigger ones). So, a little in the 70s, lot of territorial stuff in the 80s (such as remained) and WCW and WWF, in the 90s. ECW when they went on TNN, a little TNA, Billy Corgan's NWA Powerrr show, on Youtube and that has been it, since. Burnt out on WWF by the time the Invasion angle petered out. Use to get some tapes of Japan and Mexico, a few compilations and shoot interviews. Guys like Tiger Mask, Jushin Liger, Ultimo Dragon, big shows like the Super J Cup and the J Crown Tournament, When Worlds Collide. Early UFC and Pride, for MMA. I think the part about Peter Maivia taking Billy Robinson's eye was true, though I had originally heard it was Sgt. Slaughter that did that. As for the rest of that episode, I have no idea. I'm assuming every one of those episodes had some BS in them. Wrestlers have a hard time remembering where kayfabe stops and reality starts.
I had always thought the whole Midwest was the AWA territory. That's how the old magazines used to make it sound.
The old WWWF cards were fun. I went to a couple of local shows when I was a kid and it's interesting how colorless their babyface champions, like Bruno Sammartino and Bob Backlund, were compared to the later champions. Yet the crowds went berserk for them, especially Sammartino. I still remember the entire auditorium breaking into a chant of "Bruno! Bruno!" when I saw him live.
I think the mags I read way back were The Wrestler and Inside Wrestling. Apter may have been there at the time. They were owned by the same company that did most of the boxing magazines back then. Someone I know who wrote for the boxing mags used to also write for the wrestling mags and told me the most fun job was making up the stories for the apartment wrestling catfight "news" articles.
The Japanese wrestlers were head and shoulders above the American wrestlers and their matches were always far better. They always took it more seriously and brought Robinson and Karl Gotch over there to train all their guys in actual catch moves and it showed.
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Post by berkley on Sept 2, 2024 2:31:00 GMT -5
I've fallen behind a bit but a few brief comments:
I'm not a great fan of J. Romita, Jr's. style in general but I must give him credit for his ability to convey force and impact in some of the panels posted a few pages back.
Kirby was great at dynamic fight scenes but also one of the few - actually the only one I can think of right now - who could make a scene of two strong guys fighting for a grip as dramatic as one of punching someone through a wall. I'm thinking specifically of the Thor vs Hercules cover to Thor #126 that was discussed in Icctrombone's and HoosierX's Thor review thread. So maybe that cover might be a hint or a clue to how an entire grappling scene might be done in the context of superhero comics.
Very much agree that the Hulk as "the strongest one there is" has been way overdone. If that one character really is meant to be the etc, that immediately kills all the drama in any conflict he's involved in. Same goes for all these other overpowered characters, e.g. Superman, Thanos, even Batman in a less direct fashion.
I think M'Nai is one of the best visual designs ever and more should have been done with that character.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 2, 2024 10:53:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I watched that, though the episode about Polynesian Pacific was a bunch of propaganda and not even remotely accurate. Big surprise with the Rock as executive producer on the series. I grew up in Central Illinois and we were kind of in a dead zone, as far as wrestling territories. You had St Louis, but they didn't promote outside the city. To the North was Chicago, with the AWA/WWA mix, but didn't come down our way, much and then Indianapolis, which occasionally promoted in Springfield, but we only got their tv when they were putting on a show and then it disappeared after. My grandparents lived in Bloomington, IL and their local tv came out of Peoria and that station carried the Indianapolis All-Star Wrestling tv show, weekly, and they promoted shows in that city, fairly often. At one point, I think we briefly got the Chicago tv program, with Bob Luce hosting, as I recall seeing matches with Jos LeDuc, who was working for the AWA, and Kim Duk (Tiger Chung Lee) who was in Indianapolis, on the same program. Around 1981, we got the Poffo ICW tv, on a weekly basis and they started promoting shows in Decatur and Springfield, at least once a quarter. That was what made me a wrestling fan. I got to see Memphis, when I visited my other grandparents, in southern Illinois, from an Evanston, IN station. Our town was wired for cable in the summer of 1982 and I then got to see Georgia, on WTBS. Caught a little Southwestern, on the USA Network, at my grandparents, in Bloomington, as they had cable earlier. Also first saw the WWF there, in '82, when Vince Sr was still running it, with the MSG cards. Caught a rookie Curt Hennig against rookie Eddie Gilbert and then, on another show, Tiger Mask, in a match. The first card had a main event of Backlund vs Snuka, which led to their cage match. Second card had Backlund against either Superstar Billy Graham, in the kung fu gimmick, or Big John Studd. Saw All-American after it took over the Sunday slot, from Southwest Championship and Vince would show matches from other territories, of guys who would ultimately go to the WWF (like Brian Blair and Paul Orndorff). Saw Black Saturday go down in Georgia, after stuff like the Road Warriors debut, and then Mid-South being broadcast on WTBS, while Vince's ratings were tanking. Then when Crockett took over. I was in Athens, GA, in 1988, for a naval school and got to watch the big Superstars of Wrestling 8 hour bloc, on WATL, with Joe Pedicino and Bonnie Blackstone hosting. That had Crockett, WWF, Memphis, USA-Knoxville, Continental Wrestling Federation, Puerto Rico and Southern Championship Wrestling (Georgia indy, promoted by Crusher Jerry Blackwell) Watched the AWA run on ESPN, then World Class, then Global Wrestling Federation. Started reading the mags circa 1983, mostly the Apter mags, but some of the others, like Main Event Wrestling, Wrestling Eye (my favorite) New Wave Wrestling, and the occasional Starlog-published wrestling mag (Wrestling Superstars or their bigger ones). So, a little in the 70s, lot of territorial stuff in the 80s (such as remained) and WCW and WWF, in the 90s. ECW when they went on TNN, a little TNA, Billy Corgan's NWA Powerrr show, on Youtube and that has been it, since. Burnt out on WWF by the time the Invasion angle petered out. Use to get some tapes of Japan and Mexico, a few compilations and shoot interviews. Guys like Tiger Mask, Jushin Liger, Ultimo Dragon, big shows like the Super J Cup and the J Crown Tournament, When Worlds Collide. Early UFC and Pride, for MMA. I think the part about Peter Maivia taking Billy Robinson's eye was true, though I had originally heard it was Sgt. Slaughter that did that. As for the rest of that episode, I have no idea. I'm assuming every one of those episodes had some BS in them. Wrestlers have a hard time remembering where kayfabe stops and reality starts.
I had always thought the whole Midwest was the AWA territory. That's how the old magazines used to make it sound.
The old WWWF cards were fun. I went to a couple of local shows when I was a kid and it's interesting how colorless their babyface champions, like Bruno Sammartino and Bob Backlund, were compared to the later champions. Yet the crowds went berserk for them, especially Sammartino. I still remember the entire auditorium breaking into a chant of "Bruno! Bruno!" when I saw him live.
I think the mags I read way back were The Wrestler and Inside Wrestling. Apter may have been there at the time. They were owned by the same company that did most of the boxing magazines back then. Someone I know who wrote for the boxing mags used to also write for the wrestling mags and told me the most fun job was making up the stories for the apartment wrestling catfight "news" articles.
The Japanese wrestlers were head and shoulders above the American wrestlers and their matches were always far better. They always took it more seriously and brought Robinson and Karl Gotch over there to train all their guys in actual catch moves and it showed.
The AWA was the biggest segment of the Midwest; but, not the only. Indianapolis covered their state and into central Illinois, while the AWA had Minnesota, Wisconson and they co-promoted Chicago, after Fred Kohler sold out. The Sheik had Michigan and Ohio, from the old Barnett-Doyle territory, while Indianapolis, under Dick the Bruiser and Wiber Snyder was the remainder of that old territory. The AWA would promote Rockford, Peoria and sometimes Springfield, but that was as far south as they came, in Illinois. Bruiser would promote Danville, Champaign and also Peoria, then did some shows in Springfield, in the mid-late 70s and a few at the dawn of the 80s, after their glory days were over. Featured guys like Spike Huber and Steve Regal (Mr Electricity, not Lord Stephen Regal), as Te Young Lions, Golden Boy Paul Christy, with Miss Bunny Love, Jerry Valiant, Dr Jerry Graham Jr, The Great Wojo, Roger Kirby, Ali Hassan (Jack Kruger, who also worked as Sheik Ali Abdullah Hassasn, Sheik Abdullah, The Iranian Assassin, and was a ref for the WWF, in the late 80s), Calypso Joe (later Bobo Brazil Jr), and Zoltan the Great (Ken Juger, who later promoted eastern Ohio and Pennsylvania/West Virginia). Missed out on Bobby Heenan and The Blackjacks and Cowboy Bob Ellis, though Bruiser would show old matches on the tv show. Slammin' Sammy Menacker was the announcer then. When we got cable, the package included network feed from the Peoria stations, in addition to the existing affiliates we received, in Decatur, Springfield and Champaign. One of the three Peoria stations carried the WWA, so I caught it's dying days, in the mid-80s, when David McLane was the announcer, before he started up GLOW. Pretty sparse crowds and no real stars, just the same old crew, plus the Maxx Brothers, doing a Road Warriors rip-off. St Louis promoted the city, while Central States promoted the rest of Missouri, Kansas, and Iowa, while the AWA covered the Dakotas, Salt Lake City and into San Francisco, after Roy Sire went out of business. The AWA had a lot of big towns, spread across the Midwest and Great Plains, while Central States had a few, then a lot of smaller towns. St Louis and Chicago were the places to work, and the AWA circuit. Central States was more a place to go to learn, or if you couldn't get better bookings. They also kept a smaller crew. better stuff in the 70s, but horrible in the 80s, apart from some young guys and some talent doing shots, like Barry Windham. Saw a rookie Shawn Michaels working their, in 1984, and Marty Jannetty, teamed up with Tommy Lane (as Tommy Rogers, but later part of the Rock N Roll RPMs, under his own name) as a Rock n Roll Express rip-off, the Uptown Boys (with the Billy Joel song, as entrance music). They feuded with the Grapplers (Len Denton and Tony Anthony, who later unmasked to be the Dirty White Boys, in Memphis and Mid-South, then Denton went back to Portland and Anthony worked Continental). Through most of the 70s, the only wrestling I saw was when it would be mixed into an adventure series, like the Six Million Dollar Man, and it was usually Los Angeles guys, who did stunt work or bit parts. Guys like Jack Armstrong, or Hard Boiled Haggerty, Gene LeBell. |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 2, 2024 18:17:39 GMT -5
Through most of the 70s, the only wrestling I saw was when it would be mixed into an adventure series, like the Six Million Dollar Man, and it was usually Los Angeles guys, who did stunt work or bit parts. Guys like Jack Armstrong, or Hard Boiled Haggerty, Gene LeBell. And don't forget Mike Mazurki, who was a mentor of Gene's and did probably the best cinematic wrestling scene ever with Stanislaus Zbyszko in Night and the City. Now that was a great slugfest!
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 2, 2024 18:36:55 GMT -5
I've fallen behind a bit but a few brief comments: I'm not a great fan of J. Romita, Jr's. style in general but I must give him credit for his ability to convey force and impact in some of the panels posted a few pages back. Kirby was great at dynamic fight scenes but also one of the few - actually the only one I can think of right now - who could make a scene of two strong guys fighting for a grip as dramatic as one of punching someone through a wall. I'm thinking specifically of the Thor vs Hercules cover to Thor #126 that was discussed in Icctrombone's and HoosierX's Thor review thread. So maybe that cover might be a hint or a clue to how an entire grappling scene might be done in the context of superhero comics. Very much agree that the Hulk as "the strongest one there is" has been way overdone. If that one character really is meant to be the etc, that immediately kills all the drama in any conflict he's involved in. Same goes for all these other overpowered characters, e.g. Superman, Thanos, even Batman in a less direct fashion. I think M'Nai is one of the best visual designs ever and more should have been done with that character. With something like two characters fighting for a grip, I think part of it depends on who the characters are as well. Thor vs. Hercules struggling for a grip seems epic while Daredevil struggling with the Black Panther for a grip feels like... meh.
I do kind of enjoy some overpowered characters, which I suppose speaks to the juvenile power fantasies that drew a lot of us to comics in the first place, but it does get overdone, particularly with the Hulk. For years, he was clearly even in power with Thor while a group of several powerful heroes or villains were capable of overcoming him. Then they did that World War Hulk story line where he basically was strong enough to take down the whole Marvel universe practically single handed. And the movies seem even more imbalanced. Of course I was never a Hulk fan. If I were, maybe I'd love this portrayal.
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