shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Nov 29, 2014 9:38:21 GMT -5
Basically, what later decisions concerning a character or property should have a classic comic book creator rolling in his/her grave, or, if still alive, gritting his/her teeth down to sand?
I'll start.
While I could generally care less what Frank Miller thinks, I suspect that the character of Jubilee would particularly irk him. Miller redefined who both Batman and Wolverine were for at least the 1980s and 1990s, and he set them up, in a way, to be total opposites. Wolverine was the beast struggling to become a human out of love for Mariko, while Batman was the human struggling to become a beast out of love for his parents. The two, while both gritty anti-heroes, were opposites traveling in opposite directions. So, for Marvel to try to emulate Miller's DKR by giving Wolverine a carbon copy of Carrie Kelley and, thus, trying to make Wolverine act like Miller's Batman, it must have been a slap in the face, essentially saying "well, these two characters are pretty much the same."
Granted, not the most extreme example we'll be likely to come up with here, but it was on my mind.
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Post by Earth 2 Flash on Nov 29, 2014 9:59:55 GMT -5
Great idea for a thread topic!
I sincerely doubt that Roy Thomas appreciates most everything that has been done with his characters from Infinity, Inc. Especially the part about most of them being killed off like they had little-to-no value at all. |
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Post by badwolf on Nov 29, 2014 10:36:18 GMT -5
I know John Byrne didn't think much of Alpha Flight, but I know he was at least annoyed that Bill Mantlo changed the explanation for Puck's diminutive condition from a simple fluke of biology to being caused by a mystical entity. Mantlo seemed bent on wrecking pretty much everything Byrne had set up previously: turning Heather Hudson and Madison Jeffries into costumed adventurers when they had both previously established with certainty that they wouldn't or had no interest, making Roger Bochs insane and villainous where before he had proven himself loyal to Mac and Alpha Flight, killing Snowbird, turning Walter Langkowski into "Wanda"... I'd also mention revealing Northstar and Aurora as elves, but I believe that was an editorial edict. Still, it fits the thread, even if someone else made it happen.
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Post by Paradox on Nov 29, 2014 10:54:32 GMT -5
I took all of that as him being petulant over them not allowing him to give Northstar AIDS like he'd been leading up to for months.
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 29, 2014 10:57:54 GMT -5
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Steve Ditko was told about Spidey making a deal with Mephisto. Bet it was like a scene out of Scanners...
Cei-U!
I summon the mindblower!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 11:19:45 GMT -5
Oh, I'm sure Bill Everett has been turning his grave for at LEAST a year now at what they have done to Namor.
John Byrne has made it clear that he HATED what Mantlo did to his creation (not that he gives a SHIT about Alpha Flight, unfortunately).
And, it's okay, we ALLLLLLL hated what Mantlo did to Alpha Flight.
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 29, 2014 11:22:31 GMT -5
I've come to realize I only like Mantlo when he's working on his own characters (i.e., Micronauts, Cloak & Dagger, Rom).
Cei-U!
I summon the dawning awareness!
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 29, 2014 11:23:15 GMT -5
Being considered dead by some federal agencies, I can assure everyone that Bob Kane approves and takes credit for everything that has happened to Batman. As Bob says, "As long as it sells, its OK with me".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 11:37:16 GMT -5
One of my bronze-age favourites, GHOST RIDER, has evolved into this...and I DESPISE it.  |
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Post by badwolf on Nov 29, 2014 11:45:05 GMT -5
I've come to realize I only like Mantlo when he's working on his own characters (i.e., Micronauts, Cloak & Dagger, Rom). I pretty much enjoy anything else Mantlo's done, but Alpha Flight was a travesty. |
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Post by coke & comics on Nov 29, 2014 11:54:19 GMT -5
Basically, what later decisions concerning a character or property should have a classic comic book creator rolling in his/her grave, or, if still alive, gritting his/her teeth down to sand? I'll start. While I could generally care less what Frank Miller thinks, I suspect that the character of Jubilee would particularly irk him. Miller redefined who both Batman and Wolverine were for at least the 1980s and 1990s, and he set them up, in a way, to be total opposites. Wolverine was the beast struggling to become a human out of love for Mariko, while Batman was the human struggling to become a beast out of love for his parents. The two, while both gritty anti-heroes, were opposites traveling in opposite directions. So, for Marvel to try to emulate Miller's DKR by giving Wolverine a carbon copy of Carrie Kelley and, thus, trying to make Wolverine act like Miller's Batman, it must have been a slap in the face, essentially saying "well, these two characters are pretty much the same." Granted, not the most extreme example we'll be likely to come up with here, but it was on my mind. The Jubilee relationship to my mind is not a DKR copy, but borne out of his relationship with Kitty Pryde, as depicted in the Claremont/Milgrom series. Kitty had grown up and moved on, and Jubillee took her role in a sense. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Nov 29, 2014 11:57:49 GMT -5
I've come to realize I only like Mantlo when he's working on his own characters (i.e., Micronauts, Cloak & Dagger, Rom). Cei-U! I summon the dawning awareness! This would help to explain why I can't stand Mantlo. I've only read the work he's done on other people's characters. |
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Post by coke & comics on Nov 29, 2014 11:58:59 GMT -5
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Steve Ditko was told about Spidey making a deal with Mephisto. Bet it was like a scene out of Scanners... Cei-U! I summon the mindblower! My example was going to be the scenes of Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn having sweaty sex. I'm sure that made somebody turn their head, be it Romita, Kane, or Conway. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 29, 2014 12:00:34 GMT -5
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Steve Ditko was told about Spidey making a deal with Mephisto. Bet it was like a scene out of Scanners... Cei-U! I summon the mindblower! My example was going to be the scenes of Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn having sweaty sex. I'm sure that made somebody turn their head, be it Romita, Kane, or Conway. Thankfully, I've never seen that. Hopefully, I never will. Cei-U! I summon the dodged bullet! |
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Post by badwolf on Nov 29, 2014 12:01:48 GMT -5
John Byrne has made it clear that he HATED what Mantlo did to his creation (not that he gives a SHIT about Alpha Flight, unfortunately). And, it's okay, we ALLLLLLL hated what Mantlo did to Alpha Flight. Ah, okay. I only remembered hearing about Puck, but this is not surprising. AF is probably my favorite Byrne work, up there along with FF. What happened after he left made me want to cry. And we didn't even get a nice long Hulk run from Byrne as a trade-off. |
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