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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 26, 2015 15:05:55 GMT -5
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 27, 2015 12:56:10 GMT -5
So here's a question for the CCF members in the New York City area:
Did you see thousands on thousands of Muslims in Jersey City celebrating as the World Trade Center collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001? Did you see footage of this event said to be covered extensively by the local news media?
Does it make you sick to your stomach that the two leading candidates for the GOP nomination for president (representing slightly over 50% of Republican voters at the time of the claims) both claimed that this happened?
And only one of them walked it back, implicitly admitting that he cares more about hating Islam than about learning the difference between New Jersey and Palestine?
We'll see how this affects their poll numbers.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 27, 2015 16:07:51 GMT -5
So here's a question for the CCF members in the New York City area: Did you see thousands on thousands of Muslims in Jersey City celebrating as the World Trade Center collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001? Did you see footage of this event said to be covered extensively by the local news media? Does it make you sick to your stomach that the two leading candidates for the GOP nomination for president (representing slightly over 50% of Republican voters at the time of the claims) both claimed that this happened? And only one of them walked it back, implicitly admitting that he cares more about hating Islam than about learning the difference between New Jersey and Palestine? We'll see how this affects their poll numbers. Trump's have gone up... |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 27, 2015 16:17:51 GMT -5
So here's a question for the CCF members in the New York City area: Did you see thousands on thousands of Muslims in Jersey City celebrating as the World Trade Center collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001? Did you see footage of this event said to be covered extensively by the local news media? Does it make you sick to your stomach that the two leading candidates for the GOP nomination for president (representing slightly over 50% of Republican voters at the time of the claims) both claimed that this happened? And only one of them walked it back, implicitly admitting that he cares more about hating Islam than about learning the difference between New Jersey and Palestine? We'll see how this affects their poll numbers. Trump's have gone up... The one that didn't walk it back ... I was wondering what would happen to the poll numbers if any of the GOP presidential candidates made any effort at pointing out how awful it is for a candidate to try to exploit the ignorance and hatred of the GOP base in such a transparent and disgraceful manner with these filthy and easily disproven lies. And I'll be wondering for a long time because none of them has any desire to upset the base by doing the right thing. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 27, 2015 16:23:51 GMT -5
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 27, 2015 16:29:49 GMT -5
I'm sure the shooter is a Syrian refugee. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 27, 2015 16:35:35 GMT -5
I'm sure the shooter is a Syrian refugee. I drew "false-flag operation orchestrated by ACLU or The Girl Scouts" in the office pool. I got my fingers crossed! |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 27, 2015 17:01:11 GMT -5
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Post by spoon on Nov 27, 2015 18:44:37 GMT -5
So here's a question for the CCF members in the New York City area: Did you see thousands on thousands of Muslims in Jersey City celebrating as the World Trade Center collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001? Did you see footage of this event said to be covered extensively by the local news media? Does it make you sick to your stomach that the two leading candidates for the GOP nomination for president (representing slightly over 50% of Republican voters at the time of the claims) both claimed that this happened? And only one of them walked it back, implicitly admitting that he cares more about hating Islam than about learning the difference between New Jersey and Palestine? We'll see how this affects their poll numbers. I have lived in New Jersey my whole life. Two members of my family (my mother and a brother) were in Jersey City on 9/11. At the time, my mother was an elementary school teacher in Jersey City. She spent her entire teaching career in Jersey City. I actually was going to post on this back when Trump made the remark, but was worried that it would unravel into a rant. Trump's claim is a pile of crap. There was no television footage of anyone in Jersey City celebrating the 9/11 attacks. My mother and brother didn't say anything about it at the time, and I'm certain this is something they would have mentioned seeing. It would be a big, big deal to them. After Trump's remarks, I asked my mother about it. It's not that I was at all unsure about whether or not this giant celebration actually happened. I only asked because I anticipate this would lead to conversation with Trump-bots where they'd try to sow doubt because I never asked. Another thing people who aren't from the area have to understand is how closely tied the areas across the Hudson River (like Hudson County, where Jersey City is) are tied to NYC. Lots of people live the northern half of NJ and commute to work in Manhattan every day. That's especially true of places like Jersey City. It's just a few stops via the PATH train from Jersey to the WTC site. So a lot people in Jersey City would work at or near the WTC or have family that do. I assure you if thousands or people (or really any significant number of people) were celebrating the WTC, it wouldn't have gone down quietly. I'd expected those celebrating people to find many neighbors ready to beat the crap out of them. It would be a nationally known event Now, here we get to the topic of goal-post shifting. After the Trump's story was thoroughly debunked, the oily, disgusted people who run his campaign dusted off his a Washington Post that mentioned an investigation into rumors that some people were celebrating on a roof top. For years, there have been urban legends about people possibly celebrating the attacks. But it was so minor and so undocumented, that it reside in that space. Did anyone celebrate at all? Was it just someone misinterpreting something totally unrelated or possibly just a made-up story? I can't say for certain. But that's so factually different from Trump's account of thousands of people on TV. It is not honest to move the goal-posts and claim that Trump's remark was a reference to some misty urban legend. It was abundantly clear to me that Trump was totally new claim. The whole point of Trump's remark was to appeal of pervasive, community-wide behavior to a racist, Alabama GOP crowd. It was meant to appeal to same people who ate up John Rocker's story of taking the 7 Train to Shea. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 27, 2015 19:58:45 GMT -5
Thanks so much, spoon!
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 27, 2015 20:37:45 GMT -5
So here's a question for the CCF members in the New York City area: Did you see thousands on thousands of Muslims in Jersey City celebrating as the World Trade Center collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001? Did you see footage of this event said to be covered extensively by the local news media? Does it make you sick to your stomach that the two leading candidates for the GOP nomination for president (representing slightly over 50% of Republican voters at the time of the claims) both claimed that this happened? And only one of them walked it back, implicitly admitting that he cares more about hating Islam than about learning the difference between New Jersey and Palestine? We'll see how this affects their poll numbers. Another thing people who aren't from the area have to understand is how closely tied the areas across the Hudson River (like Hudson County, where Jersey City is) are tied to NYC. Lots of people live the northern half of NJ and commute to work in Manhattan every day. That's especially true of places like Jersey City. It's just a few stops via the PATH train from Jersey to the WTC site. So a lot people in Jersey City would work at or near the WTC or have family that do. I assure you if thousands or people (or really any significant number of people) were celebrating the WTC, it wouldn't have gone down quietly. I'd expected those celebrating people to find many neighbors ready to beat the crap out of them. It would be a nationally known event I was born in Jersey City and both sides of my family were from Jersey City. I've had relatives on the fire and police forces there, and at least two who, like Spoon, were teachers in the City all their lives. Two of my nephews just graduated last June from high school in Jersey City. Spoon is so right about the ties between Jersey City and Lower Manhattan. Nothing like what the pandering, Big-Lie-spouting, megalomaniac Trump happened there. Jersey City has, like so many cities, been home to whatever ethnic, religious and racial groups compose the latest wave of immigrants, and now it is home to many Vietnamese-Americans, African-Americans, Indian-Americans, both Hindi and Muslim, and Pakistani-, Bangladeshi- and Arab-Americans. Trump's target audience in new jersey and new York DEFINITELY are aware of this, and for them, his remarks are a notorious dog-whistle. For all I know, his supporters outside the area may well be aware of the demographic changes there, too. He and his advisers are frighteningly similar in technique, message, and intent to Goebbels, Father Coughlin, Joseph McCarthy (though Cruz is apparently his reincarnated corpse), and other pandering bigots. There are moments that I hope he is the Republican candidate and Hillary or Bernie (from my lips to whoever's ears) wins 45 states next year. But I have a deep and abiding fear in my heart that the darkness will prevail next November if he does take the nomination. My rational side says that his harebrained, knee-jerk appeals to atavism will never appeal to more than a small percentage of the electorate, but I have seen how easily the crowd, the hoi polloi, the great unwashed, whatever you want to call them, can be swayed and controlled. A deeper fear: Two of the establishment" candidates -- Rubio, Kasich, Bush -- compose the ticket, and the electorate swings the pendulum from the Democrats to the Republicans in what has become the typical pattern since 1952. Trouble is that the so-called moderate or establishment Republicans now would have been to the right of the Goldwater fringe 50 years ago, so we won't be swinging the pendulum gently to the middle, but yanking it further to the right than has ever happened in our history. This is going to be a close, difficult election, and given the ages of several of the SC justices, one whose results could change the face of this country for the worse, and for a long, long time. |
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Post by spoon on Nov 27, 2015 21:16:58 GMT -5
Another thing people who aren't from the area have to understand is how closely tied the areas across the Hudson River (like Hudson County, where Jersey City is) are tied to NYC. Lots of people live the northern half of NJ and commute to work in Manhattan every day. That's especially true of places like Jersey City. It's just a few stops via the PATH train from Jersey to the WTC site. So a lot people in Jersey City would work at or near the WTC or have family that do. I assure you if thousands or people (or really any significant number of people) were celebrating the WTC, it wouldn't have gone down quietly. I'd expected those celebrating people to find many neighbors ready to beat the crap out of them. It would be a nationally known event I was born in Jersey City and both sides of my family were from Jersey City. I've had relatives on the fire and police forces there, and at least two who, like Spoon, were teachers in the City all their lives. Two of my nephews just graduated last June from high school in Jersey City. Spoon is so right about the ties between Jersey City and Lower Manhattan. Nothing like what the pandering, Big-Lie-spouting, megalomaniac Trump happened there. Jersey City has, like so many cities, been home to whatever ethnic, religious and racial groups compose the latest wave of immigrants, and now it is home to many Vietnamese-Americans, African-Americans, Indian-Americans, both Hindi and Muslim, and Pakistani-, Bangladeshi- and Arab-Americans. Trump's target audience in new jersey and new York DEFINITELY are aware of this, and for them, his remarks are a notorious dog-whistle. For all I know, his supporters outside the area may well be aware of the demographic changes there, too. He and his advisers are frighteningly similar in technique, message, and intent to Goebbels, Father Coughlin, Joseph McCarthy (though Cruz is apparently his reincarnated corpse), and other pandering bigots. There are moments that I hope he is the Republican candidate and Hillary or Bernie (from my lips to whoever's ears) wins 45 states next year. But I have a deep and abiding fear in my heart that the darkness will prevail next November if he does take the nomination. My rational side says that his harebrained, knee-jerk appeals to atavism will never appeal to more than a small percentage of the electorate, but I have seen how easily the crowd, the hoi polloi, the great unwashed, whatever you want to call them, can be swayed and controlled. A deeper fear: Two of the establishment" candidates -- Rubio, Kasich, Bush -- compose the ticket, and the electorate swings the pendulum from the Democrats to the Republicans in what has become the typical pattern since 1952. Trouble is that the so-called moderate or establishment Republicans now would have been to the right of the Goldwater fringe 50 years ago, so we won't be swinging the pendulum gently to the middle, but yanking it further to the right than has ever happened in our history. This is going to be a close, difficult election, and given the ages of several of the SC justices, one whose results could change the face of this country for the worse, and for a long, long time. Just to clarify: it's my mom who was the Jersey City teacher, not me. She taught at #9 School (the Kennedy School), which closed a few years ago. I lived in Bayonne (about 100 feet from the border with Jersey City) from when I was born until first grade. My mother and brother carpooled on 9/11, because at the time, he was a student at New Jersey City University (what used to be called Jersey City State College). My daily commute was in the opposite direction. I was taking the train and working in Princeton. I remember the train stations in NJ (even down in Princeton Junction) were covered with missing person flyers for people who worked at WTC. At first, people thought someone there would be survivors somewhere, so people posted all those flyers. Folks in NJ would not have tolerated a celebration like Trump said he saw for the sake of political correctness. Trump made his remarks in Alabama. I think he was actually one of those politicians who forgets the internet exists when he's speaking. He was home he could smear NJ to an Alabama audience. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 27, 2015 21:51:55 GMT -5
Small world. ( Though as Steven Wright said, "I wouldn't want to paint it.") One of my oldest,best friends is from Bayonne, Avenue C, to be specific, and my late brother-in- law taught several classes at Jersey City State, in the late 90s, early 2000s. Also a Jersey City boy who lived in Bayonne for a few years, too.
I was lucky. Lost no one that day, though others in my family had acquaintances who died there. One of the sad tableaux in the aftermath, as I'm sure you know, were the many commuter lots near train and bus stations where scores of cars of the missing and dead remained parked for days afterward.
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Post by spoon on Nov 27, 2015 22:14:49 GMT -5
Small world. ( Though as Steven Wright said, "I wouldn't want to paint it.") One of my oldest,best friends is from Bayonne, Avenue C, to be specific, and my late brother-in- law taught several classes at Jersey City State, in the late 90s, early 2000s. Also a Jersey City boy who lived in Bayonne for a few years, too. I was lucky. Lost no one that day, though others in my family had acquaintances who died there. One of the sad tableaux in the aftermath, as I'm sure you know, were the many commuter lots near train and bus stations where scores of cars of the missing and dead remained parked for days afterward. The LCS where I bought my first comics was the pragmatically named Bayonne Comics Center on Avenue C. And on Halloween, we did our trick or treating at business on Broadway (they all had candy bowls) instead of at residences. I didn't personally know anyone who died on 9/11 either. I moved to Middlesex County as a kid in the 1980s. The general pattern was for relatives to move to more suburban areas, but the people from my grandparents generation would stay in Hudson County. I used to go back to Bayonne to visit my great-aunts, but by 2001 most of them had passed away. My mom kept working in Jersey City, because (1) she would have dropped down the pay scale if she started in a new district, and (2) she actually enjoyed working in an urban school district where a lot of kids really need good teachers to stay. A couple of people I work with now, live in Hudson County. But they're transplants. I think they were living in Pennsylvania and Long Island on 9/11. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 27, 2015 23:34:21 GMT -5
I live in Manhattan, just 5-6 miles away from the World Trade Center site. At the time of 9/11 I was working in Hoboken, New Jersey for the Liz Claiborne company, directly across the Hudson river. On that particular morning we were all in a big meeting when it was announced there was a fire at the WTC. You can easily see both towers through the window. I'll never forget the rest of that day, watching as the towers fell. Employees were told that they could go home but I was trapped since all bridges and tunnels leading back into the city were immediately shut down.
A fellow employee with a car who also lived in Manhattan said he'd give me a lift but maybe we should wait till early evening. At 5PM we headed upstate, thought we can cross the Hudson up by the Tappan Zee bridge, drive down to the Bronx and then into Manhattan. That we did, listening to the radio broadcasts the whole way. We got to Yankee stadium by about midnight and still all bridges were blocked. After another long wait, we heard via radio that the subway had resumed service from Queens into Manhattan. So over the Whitestone bridge into Queens we went, ditched the car, took a subway to the city and I finally got home about 4AM
Bridges and tunnels remained closed for 2 more days and so I couldn't report to work. 48 hours after the event, I started to notice the smell of the devastation, the fumes of the towers' remains and the atomized remnants of the victims. It had reached the upper east side.
I'm sure the myth of thousands cheering in New Jersey has no merit. But there was many, many more cheering the fact in the middle east. From the U.S. support of Israel, from the U.S being the symbol of western decadence, from decades of anti-American propaganda taught by middle eastern governments, from foes like the ayatollah of Iran to "friends" like Saudia Arabia, yes there were quite a few very pleased with what happened. And then of course you have those who believe the American government was responsible for the event itself
When you have these political monkeys like Trump and others chattering away all day and night, there is going to be so much nonsense spewed out. But then I see video of Bernie Sanders claiming that Global Warming is the root cause of the rise of ISIS.
There is no one I can feel comfortable with in supporting this coming election
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