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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 19, 2015 18:50:43 GMT -5
Is the best creative period for any writer in comics. (A) in the superhero genre, and (B) using (primarily) characters that he (or she) did not create. 1) He was masterful at using continuity in new ways, tying both Marvel's Western and Romance titles into the "main" superhero books, as well as connecting the Golden and Atlas era stories into their Silver Age reinventions, while at the same time never losing the narrative or thematic threads of the s-t-o-r-y to discuss continuity minutiae for it's own sake. 2) He was the most "adult" writer in superhero comics up to that point in terms of both political type content and these-character-are-obviously-having-sex type content. 3) His stuff was smart - his Captain America, for instance, dealt with the idea of the personal vs. the political vs. the idealistic; IE wrestling with the idea of what America is in reality vs. what the ideal of America is, and what psychological affects that disconnect will have on the individual. His Doctor Strange gave us a brand new universal cosmology, dealing (again) with psychology of the individual as it interacts with larger forces - In this case, God himself. 4) He was surprisingly and presciently feminist - He elevated both the Scarlet Witch, Mantis and Valkyrie to powerhouses who were (at least) equal to the male members of the Avengers in terms of ability, and his Leila Taylor and Clea were a far cry from the traditional Alicia Masters ever-faithful-but-passive girlfriend type that was the norm at Marvel at the time... 5) He was a master of big stories with big stakes - his stories were light on bank robbers and heavy on battles for the fate of America (the Secret Empire arc in Captain America), or the world (the Avengers/Defenders War) or the cosmos itself (Sise-Neg genesis, in Doctor Strange.) 6) He kept the X-men alive in the public's mind during their period or reprinancellation. 7) He also wrote the Hulk. (I haven't read much of his Hulk, and what I have read wasn't very good.) But his runs on Avengers, Defenders, Captain America and especially Doctor Strange are enough to make my case. 8) And THEN he wrote the best Batman story ever.  Anybody Counterpoint? |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 19:14:04 GMT -5
I really can't counterpoint. Englehart was my first "favorite" writer in comics based on the strength of the runs that you mentioned, especially his Avengers and Dr. Strange runs. It stands in stark juxtaposition with his second stint at Marvel which I really didn't like as much, or on some titles, at all though.
The only criticism I see of his first run that gets a lot of traction is the "Mary Sue" aspect of Mantis and that he took this pet character with him wherever he went in various incarnations.
-M
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 19, 2015 19:24:05 GMT -5
I haven't really read much Englehart at all... not sure why. I have to admit greatly disliking Mantis and the Swordsman... that's among my least favorite Avengers eras (right after the Crossing and the current stuff)... I think some of the Defenders I've read is his.. that stuff's pretty good. What else?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 19:34:15 GMT -5
That Kang storyline from the Mantis era is my favorite Kang story of all-time. When Heroes Return was announced, there was a fan petition to bring Englehart back to the title to team with Perez for the relaunch post-Liefeld, championed by an Avengers mailing list that both I and Scott Harris were a part of (I joined later). Kurt Busiek was the consolation prize and I don't think many were disappointed, but Englehart's Avengers rank high among long-time hardcore Avengers fans. From the Avengers-Defenders War to Kang to the Squadron Supreme and the Serpent Crown, they are all among my very favorite Avengers stories. The Mantis-Swordsman arc was only a part of that and did not define the whole, though it was a major component of the era.
In some ways I think Englehart may have been the quintessential 70s comic scripter (moreso even than Gerber), but once we got into the 80s I think his work took a dip in quality, not bad, but not near the heights of his 70s stuff. Of the 80s stuff I did like his Scorpio Rose and the little of Coyote I have read, and of his non-comic work, I like the first Point Man novel he did, but haven't checked out the others.
He seemed to bring a sense of calrity of vision and direction to most titles he came to, even if the stuff he was exploring was out there.
-M
PS Though his tenure wasn't long Englehart also co-created another Marvel Bronze Age staple in Shang Chi with Jim Starlin, and helped Starlin out on Captain Marvel at the end and took over after Starlin left the book
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 19, 2015 20:36:36 GMT -5
I hate to be the greenhorn but what's the best Batman story ever?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 20:39:00 GMT -5
The page is from the story Night of the Stalker from Detective Comics #439...  -M |
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Post by Action Ace on May 19, 2015 20:47:54 GMT -5
For my money, Steve Englehart is the best comic book writer of the 1970s. At some point, I would have rated him as the top writer (and still among the top writers) of Batman, Justice League of America, Avengers, Captain America and Green Lantern. I was also a fan of his two Ultraverse titles, The Strangers and Nightman. And he did write the best Batman story of all time, but I have a different choice.  |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 19, 2015 21:05:29 GMT -5
It's quite obvious I have not read enough of his Batman as my favorite Batman story is by no surprise Starlin.
I'd actually have to look if any of the Batman issues I own Engleheart wrote.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 19, 2015 21:17:23 GMT -5
It's quite obvious I have not read enough of his Batman as my favorite Batman story is by no surprise Starlin. I'd actually have to look if any of the Batman issues I own Engleheart wrote. Englehart is among the best Batman writers. The best, I think is Alan Brennert. Starlin would rank among the worst, in my opinion. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 21:25:21 GMT -5
It's quite obvious I have not read enough of his Batman as my favorite Batman story is by no surprise Starlin. I'd actually have to look if any of the Batman issues I own Engleheart wrote. Englehart is among the best Batman writers. The best, I think is Alan Brennert. Starlin would rank among the worst, in my opinion. I am a big fan of Starlin, but I don't think he ever got a real handle on Batman. His stories/run was serviceable for the times, but not among his best works. There have been some Bat-writers who were a whole lot worse, but yeah I wouldn't recommend Starlin's Batman to anyone. -M |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 19, 2015 21:36:39 GMT -5
Not to get too far off track...
I haven't read a monthly Batman comic in over 15 years. So anyone since then...I have no opinion. I read Batman and Detective regularly from the mid 70s through the mid 90s. Starlin was among the worst. Max Allan Collins was worse.
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Post by berkley on May 20, 2015 0:29:09 GMT -5
I can't present a strong counter-argument to Reptisaurus's opening statement because I'm largely in agreement with it. One of my biggest regrets is that I never got to read another 100 issues of the Englehart/Colan Doctor Strange, or the Englehart/Perez Avengers.
However:
I might argue that Steve Gerber's Marvel work rates as high or possibly even higher, though that wouldn't in any way diminish my esteem for Englehart's writing over roughly the same period.
I might argue that perhaps Englehart's inventive play with continuity, fun and clever as it was, opened the door to what later became a debilitating obsession with linking every damn thing in the Marvel Universe together, ultimately levelling out the differences between characters and (sub-)genres, leading to what seems to me the very flat and monotonous fictional landscape the MU offers today.
I might argue that maybe having Clea become Dr. Strange's student - and thus, in a sense, subordinate - wasn't the best way to advance the character from from her damsel in distress role - especially since she was also his lover at the time.
And yet:
To the list of Englehart's feminist characters I'd add his version of Moondragon. One of my favourite scenes was when she declines to play along with playboy Tony Stark's attempt at a little smooth-talking flirtation. I'm convinced that it was precisely because this character didn't "play along", i.e. fit into any established female role in the superhero genre, that she was written so poorly by Shooter and others: partly because they didn't get it at a conscious level, but partly perhaps because they did subconsciously sense the challenge to the norm she represented - and reacted against it.
Englehart's continuity-play was new and inventive at the time, the MU was a much less cluttered place, and he revived forgotten or neglected characters like Patsy Walker. His skill or instincts enabled him to make characters like Walker or the Two-Gun-Kid work in a superhero story - in part because, crucially, he didn't ignore the differences between their relatively mundane worlds and the superhero universe.
Gerber probably had as many misses as Englehart - for example, his Daredevil, while not at all bad, doesn't reach anywhere near the level of his best superhero work (The Defenders) - and his time at Marvel lasted a lttle longer, so he had a chance to do experiments like Omega the Unknown after Englehart was long gone. Who knows what Englehart might have come up with if he hadn't been kicked out in 1975, or whenever it was.
Counter-counter-arguments to my own counter-arguments!
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Post by fanboystranger on May 20, 2015 10:01:06 GMT -5
Being a massive Englehart fan, I'd have to agree with Steve being the best writer of other people's characters in the '70s, and he'd certainly be on the list for all-time. (Whenever there's a top ten comic writers list, I always put him on it.) While I'd argue that Steve Gerber had higher highs, he wasn't as consistant as Englehart, and his best work was generally on characters he created (Howard, especially, but also Omega) or Man-Thing, where the character wasn't the main focus so much as the characters that stumbled into his swamp. Englehart is my favorite Avengers writer, my favorite Dr Strange writer, and my favorite Captain America writer from any era.
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Post by DE Sinclair on May 20, 2015 10:42:20 GMT -5
I would love to argue the point, but I can't. His work, especially on the Avengers, is something I return to time and again. I've also read at least one of his prose novels and enjoyed that as well.
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Post by paulie on May 20, 2015 10:47:38 GMT -5
He had Clea get together with Ben Franklin. That was Ace!
I'm a big fan of those three Giant-Size Avengers, The Marvel Premier Doctor Strange, the handful of Kull issues that he did with Mike Ploog, and the Doc Strange run proper. You might be on to something here...
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