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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 25, 2015 8:35:15 GMT -5
I think we can do this without getting into trouble I thought rather than the small bits in the other thread, it would be fun to discuss some real, concrete points. I'll start with my thoughts... feel free to argue/agree, or just state your own: 1) America is ALL immigrants... shutting others out because we got here first is at best hypocritical. 2) That said, if you come to this country, you should not expect special treatment. Coming to this country to live means you have to follow our rules, and speak our language. I was in Miami this week, and it drived me NUTS that it takes 5 minutes to order food at a restaurant because I don't speak Spanish, and most of the employees only know a smattering of key words. 2A) Citizenship should include an English test. If you don't know the same amount of English as the typical 5th graders, you don't pass. Speak whatever language you like among friends and family, but business in the USA is done in English, so you need to speak it. 3) I don't think immigrants are taking jobs from Americans.I think they're doing jobs most don't want to do. We should be FAR better at making sure said workers are getting paid (and thus paying the right taxes)appropriately. If that happens, they have just the same chance at those jobs as existing citizens do. 4) I don't care if you're a citizen, on a visa, etc. If you pay taxes into the system, you should get the benefits (tuition to state college, drivers license, access to public services, etc). You should NOT get Welfare/Food stamps/etc. if you've never contributed to this country. If you come here and can't get a job...go home. 4A) If you get arrested, and you're not a citizen, you go home. Don't waste my tax dollars on your care. 5) If you're born on these shores, you're an American, whether your parents are or not. Deporting teenagers (or younger) to a country they've never been to is cruel. 6) Border security should focus on THINGS (smuggling drug, guns, etc) not people. Let the people in...under the conditions I laid out, they'll either contribute to our society or not. Planes boarding... perhaps more later. Thoughts?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2015 9:10:39 GMT -5
The "all immigrants" statement is one I like to make myself, but it's more a philosophical point than a legal or practical one. Right or wrong, the natives living on the North American continent were conquered. The forefathers did not immigrate legally nor illegally into the existing government. They conquered and made their own. Beyond that, most Americans are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants, but those immigrants faced immigration policies that were unfriendly and experienced tremendous discrimination and racism. Acknowledging that we're all immigrants, isn't a convincing argument to change the way our nation treats immigrants because, "If my grandparents could do it, why can't you?" To be fair, English is not, and never has been, our official language. Just as we have no state religion, we have no state language. I personally feel we should all speak one language too, but for some, that's an impractical requirement. We have hard working immigrants in this country who simply do not have the time, energy, nor resources to pick up another language this late in life. We also have citizens who feel their native language is a part of their identity, so if they want to run a store where the signs and staff speak their language instead of yours, we've no right to tell them otherwise since English isn't our official state language. We could go to the polls and vote to change that, but a vast minority of our citizens are primarily Spanish-speaking and would find such a move offensive. If we'd made English our official language four or more decades ago, this wouldn't be an issue, but we didn't, and now we have a large number of citizens who don't want that. Democracy in action. In fact, if demographic trends continue, THEY may be voting for Spanish as the official language in a few decades' time. Maybe we'd better just let everyone keep their own language There aren't enough economic opportunities for the average American (both in terms of employment and education) but that isn't the fault of immigrants. They're just an easy target to blame that can't defend itself when the real enemy is corporate out-sourcing. What if you're trying, but no one will hire someone of your ethnicity? There is plenty of evidence that police disproportionately arrest non-white people. I don't think this is fair at all. I agree in principal, but it becomes so messy in execution. If a pregnant woman crosses the border just to have her baby born an American citizen, what then happens to that mother? Do you put the baby in foster care and deprive it of its mother, or do you let her stay, thus inviting immigrants to use pregnancy as a tool that can be exploited to earn citizenship? I haven't considered this one enough to comment intelligently upon it.[/quote]
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Leo H
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Post by Leo H on Jun 25, 2015 10:16:23 GMT -5
I didn't expect my first comment here in months to be about immigration, but here we go I'm not saying I agree or disagree with manking English the official language of the U.S., but doing so is still pretty broadly popular today. 84% Still Support English As Official U.S. Language
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 10:21:20 GMT -5
2A) Citizenship should include an English test. If you don't know the same amount of English as the typical 5th graders, you don't pass. Speak whatever language you like among friends and family, but business in the USA is done in English, so you need to speak it. I have a brother who lives in Texas and worked 5 years as a Manager of a Burger King Restuarant - he said to me a thousand times; he'll hire individuals that can speak both English and Spanish because when you are working behind the counter the ability to speak both languages is a big bonus AND you'll be hired immediately. For five years there he had complaints from people that he didn't hire AND lawsuits of discrimination (all this in the 80's and in the 90's) and those lawsuits of discrimination were thrown out because because Cashiers at Burger King has to be fluent in both English and Spanish because 40% of his customers were Spanish Speaking Texans - He worked in South Houston about a hour drive from downtown Houston and that's why it is very important to for people to get employed in the Restuarant Businesses to speak both languages. This opinion is from my brother and I highly respect it very much. Sorry about a bit of rambling here.
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Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2015 10:36:31 GMT -5
I didn't expect my first comment here in months to be about immigration, but here we go Happy to have you back in the discussion, regardless of topic I'd be very curious to see how that poll was conducted. For example, if the poll was conducted in English, that's going to have a very significant impact on the data. Also, it was a poll conducted by phone, which means that most respondents had to be home or at least free to answer their phones and engage in a survey for several minutes. Assuming the majority of non-English speaking citizens are legal or illegal immigrants, and assuming most legal and illegal immigrants don't have the same opportunity to seek more desirable occupations, and assuming that most desirable occupations offer better and/or shorter working hours than the less desirable ones, it stands to reason that many non-English speakers were out working while these polls were conducted.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 25, 2015 10:49:53 GMT -5
I didn't expect my first comment here in months to be about immigration, but here we go Happy to have you back in the discussion, regardless of topic I'd be very curious to see how that poll was conducted. For example, if the poll was conducted in English, that's going to have a very significant impact on the data. Also, it was a poll conducted by phone, which means that most respondents had to be home or at least free to answer their phones and engage in a survey for several minutes. Assuming the majority of non-English speaking citizens are legal or illegal immigrants, and assuming most legal and illegal immigrants don't have the same opportunity to seek more desirable occupations, and assuming that most desirable occupations offer better and/or shorter working hours than the less desirable ones, it stands to reason that many non-English speakers were out working while these polls were conducted. If you follow the link it's a telephone survey done in May 2013. Telephone surveys become increasingly problematic as less and less people have land-lines and those who do skew older and thereby more conservative. While the poll claims a +/- 3% margin of error with a 95% degree of accuracy (and I don't doubt, for these purposes, that that would be true under traditional polling statistics) I'm not sure if it's controlling for the very clear change in who has phones that are readily accessible to pollsters.
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Leo H
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Post by Leo H on Jun 25, 2015 11:00:43 GMT -5
I didn't expect my first comment here in months to be about immigration, but here we go Happy to have you back in the discussion, regardless of topic I'd be very curious to see how that poll was conducted. For example, if the poll was conducted in English, that's going to have a very significant impact on the data. Also, it was a poll conducted by phone, which means that most respondents had to be home or at least free to answer their phones and engage in a survey for several minutes. Assuming the majority of non-English speaking citizens are legal or illegal immigrants, and assuming most legal and illegal immigrants don't have the same opportunity to seek more desirable occupations, and assuming that most desirable occupations offer better and/or shorter working hours than the less desirable ones, it stands to reason that many non-English speakers were out working while these polls were conducted. I'm not sure of the methodology, but polls are pretty consistent about this. "The latest YouGove research shows, however, that the vast majority of the American public favor making English the official language of the United States, with 76% supporting English as the official language and only 15% opposing it becoming the official language. This even applies to people who regularly speak another language, of whom 72% support manking English the official language. Furthermore, 79% of Hispanics also support this."Multilingual Americans support English as official language
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Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2015 11:01:38 GMT -5
Furthermore, 79% of Hispanics also support this. Fascinating. For what it's worth, I don't think shops and small areas that don't primarily utilize English is a threat to the larger culture. Past history shows that most immigrant waves establish neighborhoods that are rich with their own culture and often exclusively utilize their own language, but that their children unfailingly migrate towards the larger society and the more dominant language. My grandparents experienced this when they immigrated as Ukranian Jews in the 1920s. Neither my parents nor I speak a lick of Russian, Ukranian nor Yiddish (the three languages they knew and spoke within their community).
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Leo H
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Post by Leo H on Jun 25, 2015 11:21:11 GMT -5
Furthermore, 79% of Hispanics also support this. Fascinating. For what it's worth, I don't think shops and small areas that don't primarily utilize English is a threat to the larger culture. Past history shows that most immigrant waves establish neighborhoods that are rich with their own culture and often exclusively utilize their own language, but that their children unfailingly migrate towards the larger society and the more dominant language. My grandparents experienced this when they immigrated as Ukranian Jews in the 1920s.i Oh, I definitely don't consider it a "threat" to anything. I don't even really have a strong opinion on English as the official language. Overall, I'd say I'm pretty moderate on the immigration issue.
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Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2015 11:31:33 GMT -5
Fascinating. For what it's worth, I don't think shops and small areas that don't primarily utilize English is a threat to the larger culture. Past history shows that most immigrant waves establish neighborhoods that are rich with their own culture and often exclusively utilize their own language, but that their children unfailingly migrate towards the larger society and the more dominant language. My grandparents experienced this when they immigrated as Ukranian Jews in the 1920s.i Oh, I definitely don't consider it a "threat" to anything. I don't even really have a strong opinion on English as the official language. Overall, I'd say I'm pretty moderate on the immigration issue. Didn't mean to imply that you did. Rather that, whenever the conversation about requiring English comes up, it's almost always because someone does feel threatened by the existence of these non-English speaking sub-communities.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 11:56:53 GMT -5
Regardless of what people support or not, English is not the official language. Just like Christianity is not the official religion. Taxpayers deserve representation no matter what they speak. On top of that, how are you impacted by someone else speaking a different language?
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Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2015 12:05:35 GMT -5
Regardless of what people support or not, English is not the official language. Just like Christianity is not the official religion. Taxpayers deserve representation no matter what they speak. Agreed. 1. When the person speaking another language is in a position of authority. If I drive through China Town, get pulled over, and the police there only speak Chinese, that's a problem. Granted, this is NOT the reality, but the fear is that it could be. 2. When a person who doesn't speak English needs to be able to communicate. Again, the situation with being pulled over, but now reverse the parties. I am an officer who pulls over a person who cannot speak English. This is a problem. If a business utilizes a different language, and you don't like it, don't patronize them, but there are circumstances when people need to be able to communicate with one another. How about emergency warning systems? How many languages should we roll across the television screen at one time? Also, I live in a community that literally has over 30 different primary languages being spoken, yet our voting ballots are English-only. Do we provide 30+ different ballots upon request? That certainly comes at a greater cost to the taxpayer, as we would need to have enough ballots in each language to accommodate the possibility that every person showing up to vote may exclusively speak Swahili.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 25, 2015 12:07:49 GMT -5
As far as English language and Americans ... I see it as far more of a problem that Americans aren't bilingual. How many other countries that are American hotspots for tourism understand English? Why? Because most Americans don't know a secondary language or even bother to learn it when they do go, knowing that these countries cater to that. If we want English the official or unofficial (whichever) and expect others visiting or immigrating here shouldn't we be doing the same as well? Even in school for me, in the US, I did not get taught a secondary language at any point. It wasn't even an elective when I got to high school and was able to take elective classes in my senior year.
My two cents for what it's worth.
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Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2015 12:11:26 GMT -5
As far as English language and Americans ... I see it as far more of a problem that Americans aren't bilingual. How many other countries that are American hotspots for tourism understand English? Why? Because most Americans don't know a secondary language or even bother to learn it when they do go, knowing that these countries cater to that. If we want English the official or unofficial (whichever) and expect others visiting or immigrating here shouldn't we be doing the same as well? Even in school for me, in the US, I did not get taught a secondary language at any point. It wasn't even an elective when I got to high school and was able to take elective classes in my senior year. My two cents for what it's worth. Granted, but even that barely solves the problem, as Spanish is certainly not the only other language being spoken here. My school district had a huge influx of Ukranian immigrants over the past decade, and that posed a serious problem, as we didn't have a single staff member who spoke the language. Being bi-lingual did not prepare us for that.
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Post by Rob Allen on Jun 25, 2015 13:09:15 GMT -5
If we make English the official language, will we have to change the names of some cities?
San Franciso would become Saint Francis San Jose would become Saint Joseph San Diego would become Saint Didacus Los Angeles would become Angel City San Antonio would become Saint Anthony
and it's not just Spanish names that would have to change.
Detroit would become Straits Baton Rouge would become Red Stick Sault Ste. Marie would become Saint Mary's Rapids Philadelphia would become Brotherly Love City Chicago would become Stinky Onion City
hmm, this could be fun...
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