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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 18:23:41 GMT -5
I know a guy who married a Canadian girl, haven't really talked to him since then, but I know things were delayed about a year because he planned on moving up there and it's not quite as simple as "We're married now"
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 26, 2015 19:36:13 GMT -5
No one wants to revoke anyone's citizenship.. that would be insane. I said I wanted to make it EASIER to be a citizen, I just think there should be a language requirement. That's it. No other nonsense. In a perfect world(IMO), here's what would happen: 1) person comes to a border crossing, the guard on/server/whatever to ensure the person in front of them isn't a criminal trying to avoid justice. 2) Assuming all is well, they're given a work visa, and a little packet that tells they what to do to be an actual citizen. Or not, if they don't plan on staying. 3) They fill out the application, pass a language test, and get a social security card. poof. done. Then what exactly does this mean? Then there's the issue of people at a business I'm patronizing speaking another language in front of me, a customer. How do I know they're not saying 'this guy's a live one, let's charge him extra'. Or, 'he's white, give him the crappy stuff'?' Again, if I was travelling and choose not to learn the language of the place I was visiting, that's on me, and I accept it. In MY country, I don't think soSounds like you want to make it illegal for people to speak their native language in public, because this is YOUR country, and not theirs. It is my country. It's theirs, too, if they want it. I have no idea what they feel... as I said eariler. It means if you want to do business in a predominately English speaking country, your employees should speak English. I certainly never said anything anywhere close to making it illegal to do anything...I said I think if you want to be a citizen you should pass an English test. You consistently seem to want to exaggerate what I say to argue. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 20:19:59 GMT -5
Then what exactly does this mean? Sounds like you want to make it illegal for people to speak their native language in public, because this is YOUR country, and not theirs. It is my country. It's theirs, too, if they want it. I have no idea what they feel... as I said eariler. It means if you want to do business in a predominately English speaking country, your employees should speak English. I certainly never said anything anywhere close to making it illegal to do anything...I said I think if you want to be a citizen you should pass an English test. You consistently seem to want to exaggerate what I say to argue. How do you know those people speaking Spanish can't pass an English test and just choose to speak Spanish instead? When you say "Not in my country" what exactly do you mean, besides "This shouldn't be allowed in my country?" |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 26, 2015 20:24:44 GMT -5
In the particular context which I'm discussing, that would be far worse, because that means they were messing with a customer (me) on purpose... I guess that would just be a matter or really stupid business practice.
I asked a parking attendant (whose job seemed to be to stuff people's tickets in the slot if they didn't pull up far enough) if they allowed overnight parking (the sign didn't say). After 4 tries, she had to leave to get a supervisor. If she was doing that for some other reason that wasn't that she didn't speak English, that's a whole different set of issues that has nothing to do with this conversation.
I was giving her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't understand, rather than assuming she was an a-hole.
When I say 'not in my country' I mean I want others to be proud and happy to be here if they choose to come here.. for all our issues, this is still the best place in the world (which is why everyone from other countries want to get here. Part of that is speaking the language in order to more easily interact with your fellow citizens. I guess you just don't like my choice of words?
I've never said anyone should leave.. quite the opposite in fact.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 20:33:43 GMT -5
What if they weren't messing with you, but simply conversing to one another matters that do not concern you in a language they were comfortable in?
I don't understand why it's about you, or why their freedom of speech is less important than your insecurities?
How do you know how proud someone is to live here based on their native tongue?
And if you're saying "You must speak English to be a citizen, and by the way, these people don't speak English" how are you not advocating their citizenship be revoked?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 27, 2015 6:42:03 GMT -5
What if they weren't messing with you, but simply conversing to one another matters that do not concern you in a language they were comfortable in? I don't understand why it's about you, or why their freedom of speech is less important than your insecurities? How do you know how proud someone is to live here based on their native tongue? And if you're saying "You must speak English to be a citizen, and by the way, these people don't speak English" how are you not advocating their citizenship be revoked? Because I didn't say that, that's why. I say that should be a requirement for new citizens. It's nothing about being insecure, not sure why you'd say that. When I'm in a business and I ask a question about that business, I expect a prompt answer. That's the main thing. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech... if they're sitting in the restaurant having dinner, that's fine.. it's the EMPLOYEES I'm talking about. It has nothing to do freedom of anything, it's about commerce and community. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 27, 2015 10:30:37 GMT -5
What if they weren't messing with you, but simply conversing to one another matters that do not concern you in a language they were comfortable in? I don't understand why it's about you, or why their freedom of speech is less important than your insecurities? How do you know how proud someone is to live here based on their native tongue? And if you're saying "You must speak English to be a citizen, and by the way, these people don't speak English" how are you not advocating their citizenship be revoked? Because I didn't say that, that's why. I say that should be a requirement for new citizens. It's nothing about being insecure, not sure why you'd say that. When I'm in a business and I ask a question about that business, I expect a prompt answer. That's the main thing. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech... if they're sitting in the restaurant having dinner, that's fine.. it's the EMPLOYEES I'm talking about. It has nothing to do freedom of anything, it's about commerce and community. Shouldn't it be up to the business owner if they're concerned about that? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 11:59:52 GMT -5
What if they weren't messing with you, but simply conversing to one another matters that do not concern you in a language they were comfortable in? I don't understand why it's about you, or why their freedom of speech is less important than your insecurities? How do you know how proud someone is to live here based on their native tongue? And if you're saying "You must speak English to be a citizen, and by the way, these people don't speak English" how are you not advocating their citizenship be revoked? Because I didn't say that, that's why. I say that should be a requirement for new citizens. It's nothing about being insecure, not sure why you'd say that. When I'm in a business and I ask a question about that business, I expect a prompt answer. That's the main thing. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech... if they're sitting in the restaurant having dinner, that's fine.. it's the EMPLOYEES I'm talking about. It has nothing to do freedom of anything, it's about commerce and community. Even citizens that were born here? What then? What if they were born and raised in America and can't pass your test? And you said nothing of prompt answers to questions. You said you were paranoid they were talking about you in a different language, and that it shouldn't happen in your country. Well what if speaking foreign languages was illegal in public but they still decided to talk some smack? What would you do? You say it has nothing to do with freedom of speech, but it does. The government's place is not to legislate what language we speak, ever. The employer can put that rule in place if he chooses, or he can choose not to, which is also his freedom. A freedom you'd like to see revoked. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 27, 2015 21:21:51 GMT -5
Still making up random stuff I didn't say. I didn't say anything you said in that last post. If someone born here can't pass a basic English test (I'm picturing like, 3rd grade level here), then we have far bigger issues.
And I did say that, several times... that was the main point of my story. You just chose to ignore it, because it didn't fit in with your rant.
I've never said anything should be illegal or than anyone can't do anything... I said that people who live here and want to be citizens should speak English. That's it. None of that other nonsense... you're making up out of whole cloth.
Freedom has to have limits to live in an organized society. Are we 'free' to walk down the street and shoot someone in the head? Or free to carry a confederate flag and force every person we me to salute it? Some things need to be controlled for the greater good, to have society run smoothly. I think having everyone that lives here speak a common tongue (in addition to whatever else they want to do) is a very, very good idea. That's all I'm trying to get to.. all this other nonsense is just you hunting for things to complain about.
I did mention it that it bugged me that people working at a restaurant I ate at were speaking another language in front of customers, yes. That was just an off hand comment.. has nothing to do with the other stuff... I was just pointing it out because it has just happened and it bugged me.
@ Slam: It should, yes. And I'm sure it does in the long run.
That said. I know for a fact there are alot of industries (hotels and restaurants in particular) where there are alot of people that are working illegally, and not getting paid enough. If citizenship were easier, they could make minimum wage, and pay taxes into the system... this is a good thing. I suspect in alot of cases, they've chosen poorly qualified illegal workers over more expensive legal ones. If that was less of an option, I think alot of that stuff would solve itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 0:04:53 GMT -5
Still making up random stuff I didn't say. I didn't say anything you said in that last post. If someone born here can't pass a basic English test (I'm picturing like, 3rd grade level here), then we have far bigger issues. You're not answering. Should they be citizens? Yes or no? Because you DID say people should have to speak English to be citizens. But the reality of the fact is there are citizens that do not speak English. This isn't a "far bigger issue" though, or even an issue at all, if you just go ahead and accept that they're citizens and they don't speak English and that's okay. I've never said anything should be illegal or than anyone can't do anything... I said that people who live here and want to be citizens should speak English. That's it. None of that other nonsense... you're making up out of whole cloth. Regarding people speaking another language at the grocery store, your comment was "Not in my country." What exactly do you mean by that, if not "People shouldn't be allowed to do that?" That said. I know for a fact there are alot of industries (hotels and restaurants in particular) where there are alot of people that are working illegally, and not getting paid enough. If citizenship were easier, they could make minimum wage, and pay taxes into the system... this is a good thing. I suspect in alot of cases, they've chosen poorly qualified illegal workers over more expensive legal ones. If that was less of an option, I think alot of that stuff would solve itself. Oh, I know it too. I've worked alongside them. Have you? I'm guessing no. Because if you did you'd know the Marriott is not in the business of knowingly hiring illegal immigrants and illegally paying them below minimum wage. Those illegals have provided a Social Security number, someone else's of course, but they are absolutely getting paid the same as every other worker, and they are absolutely having payroll taxes deducted. The big difference is at the end of the year they aren't filing for a return, because they don't want an audit and then immigration issues, so even low earners who would normally get 100% of their federal taxes back are paying 25% into the system. www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/04/16/Study-Finds-Illegal-Immigrants-Pay-118B-Taxes |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 0:06:43 GMT -5
Are we 'free' to walk down the street and shoot someone in the head? You're right. That's EXACTLY like freedom of speech. We should repeal it. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 28, 2015 9:53:15 GMT -5
Actually, I HAVE works with LOTS of people in the hotel industry, and I know 100% for certain many of them get screwed.. there are lots of other hotels in the world besides Marriott. I'm at literally 100+ hotels every year for work,all over the country, interacting with the people that do the grunt work. I've talked to LOTS of them. Many of them have those jobs specifically because they can get away with it.
This discussion about new citizens, all that other stuff is irrelevant. I didn't propose, nor consider, doing anything different with anything else. I suspect if we created an easy path to citizenship, as I outlined, alot of the other stuff would fall into place.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 28, 2015 11:24:14 GMT -5
This thread is on the verge of getting out of hand. Let's cool it a little. Anybody who has perhaps gone a little too far might want to consider a break from this thread.
When and if you come back to it, start over. Parts of this discussion went off the rails a little, and dwelling on it isn't going to convince anybody of anything.
Remember that we're all friends here.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 13:28:03 GMT -5
This discussion about new citizens That doesn't change anything. When you were born were you fluent in English? Should we have tossed you out? There are people who were born here who do not speak English for one reason or another. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 13:31:26 GMT -5
AcI've talked to LOTS of them. Many of them have those jobs specifically because they can get away with it. And I'd estimate zero percent of them make less than minimum wage. I grew up in a sanctuary city. I still work there. I know what those people make. The same exact wage as the native born white coworkers of theirs. They work low paying labor intensive jobs, but nothing illegal is going on. In fact, the construction laborers make an alright wage. The dishwashers make minimum wage just like everyone else in the restaurant. Landscapers have benefits and insurance. The only ones I see who are making a wage that SHOULD be illegal (but isn't) are the farm workers who are doing piece work at a low rate. |
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