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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 17:26:37 GMT -5
That's pretty awesome, though currently it looks like it wouldn't help me out. But still, in the not too distant future who knows? Yeah I think it will solve a lot of problems. Not just with immigrants trying to see a doctor or whatever, but including education. We could be at the end of language barriers in a couple years. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 17:28:38 GMT -5
I'm not really sure why you quoted me on that, since I didn't say any of those things or anything close. I didn't say that English should be the official language, or that anyone should be required to pass an English exam, or that anyone should have their citizenship taken away. I said that they are hurting themselves in many cases by not knowing at least the basics of English. Can they get by in their construction jobs without English? Perhaps. Would they have had better, more high paying options available than construction if they knew English? That's my point. If I moved to France I would expect to have a very hard time living and working without learning French, whether it was the official language or not. That's generally my feeling as well, if I was forced to move somewhere that English was not the primary language I'd work my ass off to learn what ever language was spoken so that I'd have a better chance at a better life. Which I think goes towards Dupont's point about Coechella; it's an impoverished area and English or not you're options are going to be limited however knowing the dominate language does improve your chances, there's no guarantee but being able to effectively communicate is a step in the right direction. Whether that step pays off or not is anybodies' guess but it certainly doesn't hinder you. It would probably suck moving someplace English was not the primary language, but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking I'd do any better at learning French than a Mexican immigrant does at learning English. Being an immigrant is tough, even when you do know the language. If it weren't I'd have already jumped ship and moved to Australia |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 17:29:41 GMT -5
Dupont asked how I'm impacted... I had to waste at least an hour of my time during my 3 day trip in trying to get various and sundry merchants to understand me. If I was travelling abroad, that would be fine. In my own country, it's extremely annoying. Then there's the issue of people at a business I'm patronizing speaking another language in front of me, a customer. How do I know they're not saying 'this guy's a live one, let's charge him extra'. Or, 'he's white, give him the crappy stuff'?' Again, if I was travelling and choose not to learn the language of the place I was visiting, that's on me, and I accept it. In MY country, I don't think so 1. Shop someplace else then. Write a letter to their CEO. Legislating speech isn't the answer. 2. Stop being ridiculous. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 17:31:42 GMT -5
I actually do NOT agree that you deserve representation if you don't speak English. If you can't be bothered to learn the language, how can you possibly understand a political issue? I understand that's harsh, but that's how I feel. We have enough idiots voting that do speak the language. No matter what you speak, no matter who you vote for, or if you even vote, if you live in this country, if you contribute to this country, you deserve representation. In fact, I'd say an immigrant maid who pays her taxes deserves MORE representation than a tax dodging CEO who spends what should have been his tax dollars on lobbyists. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 25, 2015 18:54:02 GMT -5
I actually do NOT agree that you deserve representation if you don't speak English. If you can't be bothered to learn the language, how can you possibly understand a political issue? I understand that's harsh, but that's how I feel. We have enough idiots voting that do speak the language. No matter what you speak, no matter who you vote for, or if you even vote, if you live in this country, if you contribute to this country, you deserve representation. In fact, I'd say an immigrant maid who pays her taxes deserves MORE representation than a tax dodging CEO who spends what should have been his tax dollars on lobbyists. We have a lot more idiots voting who do speak the language. If you live here you have a right to be represented. That may be the SINGLE most important principal the country was founded upon. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 25, 2015 18:54:07 GMT -5
No matter what you speak, no matter who you vote for, or if you even vote, if you live in this country, if you contribute to this country, you deserve representation. In fact, I'd say an immigrant maid who pays her taxes deserves MORE representation than a tax dodging CEO who spends what should have been his tax dollars on lobbyists. I agree. If they're paying taxes, they're probably a citizen, though... or at least on a work visa. I did say that earlier, that I think paying taxes should make you a citizen (as long as you speak the language). I don't want people voting that have no idea who or what they're voting for.. or worse, who vote for the person that has the better commercials.. that's the sort of Democracy that doesn't work. You need to have a high percentage of knowledgable voter for Democracy to be effective. Incidently, if you choose not to vote, you're giving up your right to representation, by your own choice. I suppose if you want to camp yourself on the steps of the Capitol, you can feel free, but I'm not sure that gets you the same impact. I think you're not quite understanding what I'm getting at. I'm not saying people should not be allowed to do whatever the heck they one in private, but when conducting people with other citizens, there should be a standard. I'm not even saying that they can't specialize and have other languages available if they're so inclined. I'm saying that should ALSO have that standard as an option. All the time. Without exception. I suggest English as that standard, because that's the most common language here. If it was another language, that would be fine, too. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 25, 2015 19:03:17 GMT -5
Dupont asked how I'm impacted... I had to waste at least an hour of my time during my 3 day trip in trying to get various and sundry merchants to understand me. If I was travelling abroad, that would be fine. In my own country, it's extremely annoying. Then there's the issue of people at a business I'm patronizing speaking another language in front of me, a customer. How do I know they're not saying 'this guy's a live one, let's charge him extra'. Or, 'he's white, give him the crappy stuff'?' Again, if I was travelling and choose not to learn the language of the place I was visiting, that's on me, and I accept it. In MY country, I don't think so I certainly am all for people voting with their dollars (As Shax suggested) but that's not really an option in, say, Miami, where I was. There's also a matter of what is for sale/or services offered. If I'm in a clearly Hispanic community, and I go into a Mexican restaurant where the sign and menu displayed is in Spanish, I get it. I'll suck it up or go there. If, OTOH, I try to park I the only public lot, and try to ask a question(it wasn't clear if overnight was allowed), and they have to go get a manager because no one else speaks English, and no one knows what is a pretty basic answer, that's a problem, IMO Isn't it also their country? This is both deeply paranoid (they might be talking about me) and deeply privileged (they should be like me...it's MY country). Maybe they don't like you talking English in their country. You might be saying something bad about them. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 25, 2015 19:16:17 GMT -5
I have no idea if it's their country, too. How would I know? I can only speak for myself. My guess is that the majority of people that can't be bothered to speak English don't identify themselves as American first. If I moved to Japan tomorrow, even if I lived there 20 years, I'd probably still identify myself as an American. It's not about privilege, it's about standards.
As to talking about customers....assuming you've, at some time in your life had a job where you have customers you interact with, I'm sure you talked about customers after they were gone for good or (mostly) bad. Everyplace I've every worked that happens. Heck, I've even had it happen before they were out of ear shot. I'm sure if people could get away with it, they will.
I get what you're saying, but it's pretty well established that this is an English speaking country. If people want to try to change that, fine. Let's have a national debate about it. But whether the government says there's an official language or not, there is a prevalent one. Right now, that's English. People should be able to use it.
You guys seem to be trying to equate this to racism or elitism or whatever. That's not it at all... it's about standardization and economy. If we had a national vote tomorrow and people picked Spanish, or Latin, or Swahilli, or whatever as a national language, I'd be first in line for the classes... I just think we need a standard.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 19:20:30 GMT -5
I have no idea if it's their country, too. How would I know? I can only speak for myself. My guess is that the majority of people that can't be bothered to speak English don't identify themselves as American first. If I moved to Japan tomorrow, even if I lived there 20 years, I'd probably still identify myself as an American. It's not about privilege, it's about standards. As to talking about customers....assuming you've, at some time in your life had a job where you have customers you interact with, I'm sure you talked about customers after they were gone for good or (mostly) bad. Everyplace I've every worked that happens. Heck, I've even had it happen before they were out of ear shot. I'm sure if people could get away with it, they will. I get what you're saying, but it's pretty well established that this is an English speaking country. If people want to try to change that, fine. Let's have a national debate about it. But whether the government says there's an official language or not, there is a prevalent one. Right now, that's English. People should be able to use it. You guys seem to be trying to equate this to racism or elitism or whatever. That's not it at all... it's about standardization and economy. If we had a national vote tomorrow and people picked Spanish, or Latin, or Swahilli, or whatever as a national language, I'd be first in line for the classes... I just think we need a standard. You can make stupid choices at the polls even if you're somewhat fluent in English. Just look at the Republican Party. And a public servants duty is to all their citizens, not just the ones that voted for them. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 25, 2015 20:19:49 GMT -5
When ever issues come up that arouse our passions it is easy to get caught up in the moment and express ourselves in ways that are unbecoming of the standards we hold here at the Classic Comics Forum. Whether these indiscretions take the form of personal insults or broader and general distasteful comments we view them the same and encourage all users on both sides of the spectrum to always try to present the best version of your point without demeaning the views of others and anything short of that will be placed under review.
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Post by spoon on Jun 25, 2015 21:04:00 GMT -5
Although I think the "pox on both your parties" position is a cop-out for some issues, immigration is one issue where I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
On the one hand, waves of immigration built this country. Fears of how immigration would harm the country have proven misguided or overblown throughout U.S. history. It's also pretty ironic to see politicians like Jan Brewer target immigrants whose ancestors likely lived within a few hundred miles of modern-day Arizona for centuries. The incentives to assimilate are really strong. I find it hard to square the fears of people in more homogenous parts of the country with my experience in diverse New Jersey of children of immigrant who embrace their American-ness. I think most immigrant are here to work and obey the law.
On the other hand, I think the far left gets it wrong, too. By all means, immigrants who don't know English well should have interpreters or translations for legal proceedings, election ballots, etc. But immigrants should learn English. English isn't just the predominant language of the U.S., it's now the lingua franca of the world. Just like we should emphasize the STEM fields for success in the global economy, we should emphasize English proficiency. I think that generally favors immersion. I think bilingual education for ESL students is sometimes pushed on PC grounds rather than the kids' best interests. Speaking as a Democrat, I think some folks on the far left demonize the U.S. too much. Many folks immigrate precisely because the U.S. does things better than their former home countries. The pace of assimilation is good as is; we shouldn't slow it down for the sake of political correctness.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 25, 2015 21:05:46 GMT -5
You can make stupid choices at the polls even if you're somewhat fluent in English. Just look at the Republican Party. And a public servants duty is to all their citizens, not just the ones that voted for them. Of course, though sadly that's not how it works in practicality. I can deal with people making choices I disagree with if they're relatively informed ones, it's making decisions based on TV propaganda, or worse, social media memes that I have a problem with. And yes, speaking the language doesn't make you smarter, nor does NOT knowing the language make you stupid. I'm saying if you want to be an informed, responsible citizen, you need to speak the prevailing language of the land... just as you have to follow its laws and pay taxes to enable the enforcement of those laws. As such, you get the benefits.. isn't that Democracy? Also, great post Spoon! I agree pretty much 100%. ESL programs should be great.. and be a way for kids to overcome parents that are either unable or unwilling to help them, and sometimes such things get made into a high concept political football, rather than focusing on their purpose. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 21:15:16 GMT -5
News is broadcast in more than one language, you know.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 21:16:51 GMT -5
Although I think the "pox on both your parties" position is a cop-out for some issues, immigration is one issue where I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. On the one hand, waves of immigration built this country. Fears of how immigration would harm the country have proven misguided or overblown throughout U.S. history. It's also pretty ironic to see politicians like Jan Brewer target immigrants whose ancestors likely lived within a few hundred miles of modern-day Arizona for centuries. The incentives to assimilate are really strong. I find it hard to square the fears of people in more homogenous parts of the country with my experience in diverse New Jersey of children of immigrant who embrace their American-ness. I think most immigrant are here to work and obey the law. On the other hand, I think the far left gets it wrong, too. By all means, immigrants who don't know English well should have interpreters or translations for legal proceedings, election ballots, etc. But immigrants should learn English. English isn't just the predominant language of the U.S., it's now the lingua franca of the world. Just like we should emphasize the STEM fields for success in the global economy, we should emphasize English proficiency. I think that generally favors immersion. I think bilingual education for ESL students is sometimes pushed on PC grounds rather than the kids' best interests. Speaking as a Democrat, I think some folks on the far left demonize the U.S. too much. Many folks immigrate precisely because the U.S. does things better than their former home countries. The pace of assimilation is good as is; we shouldn't slow it down for the sake of political correctness. Nobody is demonizing ESL. We're just saying it should be optional. And all the ESL in the world isn't going to stop people from speaking their preferred language when they choose, like at the grocery store, which seems to be a major concern for some. |
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Post by spoon on Jun 25, 2015 21:35:42 GMT -5
Although I think the "pox on both your parties" position is a cop-out for some issues, immigration is one issue where I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. On the one hand, waves of immigration built this country. Fears of how immigration would harm the country have proven misguided or overblown throughout U.S. history. It's also pretty ironic to see politicians like Jan Brewer target immigrants whose ancestors likely lived within a few hundred miles of modern-day Arizona for centuries. The incentives to assimilate are really strong. I find it hard to square the fears of people in more homogenous parts of the country with my experience in diverse New Jersey of children of immigrant who embrace their American-ness. I think most immigrant are here to work and obey the law. On the other hand, I think the far left gets it wrong, too. By all means, immigrants who don't know English well should have interpreters or translations for legal proceedings, election ballots, etc. But immigrants should learn English. English isn't just the predominant language of the U.S., it's now the lingua franca of the world. Just like we should emphasize the STEM fields for success in the global economy, we should emphasize English proficiency. I think that generally favors immersion. I think bilingual education for ESL students is sometimes pushed on PC grounds rather than the kids' best interests. Speaking as a Democrat, I think some folks on the far left demonize the U.S. too much. Many folks immigrate precisely because the U.S. does things better than their former home countries. The pace of assimilation is good as is; we shouldn't slow it down for the sake of political correctness. Nobody is demonizing ESL. We're just saying it should be optional. And all the ESL in the world isn't going to stop people from speaking their preferred language when they choose, like at the grocery store, which seems to be a major concern for some. My discussion on whether ESL education should focus more on immersion or bilingual education wasn't supposed to be a response to any poster. It's just my view on the issue. I think we're talking about two different things, because I don't know what you mean in the first two sentences. As much as I dislike George W. Bush, there's a kernel of truth in that "soft bigotry of low expectations" idea. If kids in non-English-speaking countries can learn to speak English really well at a young age, there's no reason that immigrant kids who are surrounded by English in the U.S. should be treated like they English is too much of challenge. Customers should speak whatever language they like in a grocery. It would be pretty totalitarian to demand otherwise. On the other hand, if a group of co-workers all know English, then speaking another language is the equivalent of whispering to someone so others can't hear. Customers in a store can speak |
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