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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 25, 2015 14:15:27 GMT -5
Chicago would become Stinky Onion City I thought that was Pomona ... |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jun 25, 2015 15:14:26 GMT -5
Regardless of what people support or not, English is not the official language. Just like Christianity is not the official religion. Taxpayers deserve representation no matter what they speak. Agreed. 1. When the person speaking another language is in a position of authority. If I drive through China Town, get pulled over, and the police there only speak Chinese, that's a problem. Granted, this is NOT the reality, but the fear is that it could be. 2. When a person who doesn't speak English needs to be able to communicate. Again, the situation with being pulled over, but now reverse the parties. I am an officer who pulls over a person who cannot speak English. This is a problem. If a business utilizes a different language, and you don't like it, don't patronize them, but there are circumstances when people need to be able to communicate with one another. How about emergency warning systems? How many languages should we roll across the television screen at one time? Also, I live in a community that literally has over 30 different primary languages being spoken, yet our voting ballots are English-only. Do we provide 30+ different ballots upon request? That certainly comes at a greater cost to the taxpayer, as we would need to have enough ballots in each language to accommodate the possibility that every person showing up to vote may exclusively speak Swahili. Responding to the phrase I bolded: a good idea, but not always practical. They can't always choose where to go, especially if they're using public assistance. My wife manages an optical store and regularly gets people sent in on public assistance (called Title 19 here) for government paid glasses/exams who speak little to no English. Because of the low reimbursement rate for the store, few places want to provide the Title 19 exams & glasses. This then requires either an interpreter, at taxpayer expense, or a bi-lingual family member to come with to communicate, or causes extreme difficulty in communicating the options. Some may say that she should become bi-lingual to serve them, but she gets people speaking only Spanish, Hmong, Indian, among others, and to expect her to learn all those for a job that pays less than many retail sales positions, is unreasonable.
I'm not saying that English should be the "official" language, but I do believe that if people who move here don't at least learn the basics of English, they are doing themselves a huge disservice.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 25, 2015 15:35:11 GMT -5
And a disservice to the receiving end too. In this case your wife. In the retail I've done in this state, especially one job, a otherwise unfit and lazy assembly worker kept his job because he spoke Spanish and could communicate with those customers that didn't speak English. Which there's a lot of here. There's also a lot of Hispanic people of all ages in businesses that are very fluent in both languages as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 15:45:08 GMT -5
1. When the person speaking another language is in a position of authority. If I drive through China Town, get pulled over, and the police there only speak Chinese, that's a problem. Granted, this is NOT the reality, but the fear is that it could be. 2. When a person who doesn't speak English needs to be able to communicate. Again, the situation with being pulled over, but now reverse the parties. I am an officer who pulls over a person who cannot speak English. This is a problem. I don't see #1 as a rational concern. I mean, has that ever happened in the history of America? No reason to think it's going to happen any time soon. I don't much regard irrational concerns like that. Also, requiring applicants to speak a certain language is not the same as requiring citizens to. It's perfectly okay to require applicants for certain jobs to speak English. Or to be bilingual, which many government jobs here in the Southwest do require. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 15:46:50 GMT -5
If we make English the official language, will we have to change the names of some cities? San Franciso would become Saint Francis San Jose would become Saint Joseph San Diego would become Saint Didacus Los Angeles would become Angel City San Antonio would become Saint Anthony and it's not just Spanish names that would have to change. Detroit would become Straits Baton Rouge would become Red Stick Sault Ste. Marie would become Saint Mary's Rapids Philadelphia would become Brotherly Love City Chicago would become Stinky Onion City hmm, this could be fun... Freedom of speech* *For English speaking residents only |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 15:51:43 GMT -5
Agreed. 1. When the person speaking another language is in a position of authority. If I drive through China Town, get pulled over, and the police there only speak Chinese, that's a problem. Granted, this is NOT the reality, but the fear is that it could be. 2. When a person who doesn't speak English needs to be able to communicate. Again, the situation with being pulled over, but now reverse the parties. I am an officer who pulls over a person who cannot speak English. This is a problem. If a business utilizes a different language, and you don't like it, don't patronize them, but there are circumstances when people need to be able to communicate with one another. How about emergency warning systems? How many languages should we roll across the television screen at one time? Also, I live in a community that literally has over 30 different primary languages being spoken, yet our voting ballots are English-only. Do we provide 30+ different ballots upon request? That certainly comes at a greater cost to the taxpayer, as we would need to have enough ballots in each language to accommodate the possibility that every person showing up to vote may exclusively speak Swahili. Responding to the phrase I bolded: a good idea, but not always practical. They can't always choose where to go, especially if they're using public assistance. My wife manages an optical store and regularly gets people sent in on public assistance (called Title 19 here) for government paid glasses/exams who speak little to no English. Because of the low reimbursement rate for the store, few places want to provide the Title 19 exams & glasses. This then requires either an interpreter, at taxpayer expense, or a bi-lingual family member to come with to communicate, or causes extreme difficulty in communicating the options. Some may say that she should become bi-lingual to serve them, but she gets people speaking only Spanish, Hmong, Indian, among others, and to expect her to learn all those for a job that pays less than many retail sales positions, is unreasonable.
I'm not saying that English should be the "official" language, but I do believe that if people who move here don't at least learn the basics of English, they are doing themselves a huge disservice.
People who smoke are doing themselves a huge disservice. People who eat too many hamburgers. People who drive instead of walk. Also, having grown up in Coachella, I can see some communities where speaking English is completely unnecessary. And I know people personally who are native born American citizens whose second language is English, and who struggle with the language to this day, in their 40's. They're still American citizens and taxpayers. The thought that they should have to pass an English exam to be considered citizens is offensive to me, and a bit bigoted. Would fluency in English open up some opportunities for them? Probably. Or probably not since they work in construction anyway, but maybe it could have early on. Are there people who maybe would have had more opportunities if they weren't homeschooled on creationist curriculum? Yep. But lets not take away their citizenship over it. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 25, 2015 15:57:25 GMT -5
I tend to think you should be able to speak English if you're going to live here in the States, and that's coming from someone who is insanely liberal on social issues. Right to choose? Absolutely. Free health Care for everyone? Right on. Equal rights for all LGBT peoples? Damn Straight!
But no national language? I think that has to change, and for similar reasons to what DE said above. It's nice to say that everybody here should be free to speak what ever language they want, and in their own homes and private businesses that's totally acceptable, but in the public space that creates some serious issues. Again, it's nice to say that people in positions of authority should be equipped to handle different languages, but as DE pointed out with so many different immigrants out there it just isn't realistic and it creates situations where people who badly need service aren't receiving it at the level that they deserve.
A further anecdote on this from me: I speak Spanish pretty well, my mother is Spanish Californian (her term not mine),I graduated high school as a member of the Spanish National Honor Society and continued to take Spanish as an elective through out my years at college. Now, it's been six years since I graduated and I've spoken Spanish infrequently since then so I am rusty, but I'd still say my vocabulary is at least conversational; however that skill is pretty useless to me at work as the Spanish I learned in the academic setting is totally different than the language the Guatemalan and Ecuadorian customers I interact with every day. I pick up like one out of every three words these guys are saying (and like wise with their understanding of me I'm sure)and as such most of the time I'm unable to fully help them with the projects they're working on. I've tried picking up books to help understand them better...but they just don't exist so it's not possible for me do it on my own time, but there are plenty of books, tapes and other programs available on how to speak English. And I know that just like me, these guys are working two and three jobs to make ends meet so they don't have a lot of time to learn but given where they are it really is a necessity and time has to be found. I mean, I'm non-essential, I'm just helping them put up fencing, roofing and patios, so its not life or death if we misunderstand each other but I often worry about what would happen if one of them was hurt on the job. If they needed serious medical attention and couldn't convey allergies or what medicines they might be on...what then?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 25, 2015 16:02:06 GMT -5
1. When the person speaking another language is in a position of authority. If I drive through China Town, get pulled over, and the police there only speak Chinese, that's a problem. Granted, this is NOT the reality, but the fear is that it could be. 2. When a person who doesn't speak English needs to be able to communicate. Again, the situation with being pulled over, but now reverse the parties. I am an officer who pulls over a person who cannot speak English. This is a problem. I don't see #1 as a rational concern. I mean, has that ever happened in the history of America? No reason to think it's going to happen any time soon. I don't much regard irrational concerns like that. Also, requiring applicants to speak a certain language is not the same as requiring citizens to. It's perfectly okay to require applicants for certain jobs to speak English. Or to be bilingual, which many government jobs here in the Southwest do require. German was a language of instruction in Pennsylvania until around 1950, but it began being suppressed around the time of the first World War. State documents were also available in German until around the same time. There was a long whoop-de-doo about the danger of German overtaking English as the lingua franca of the U.S. Now it's Spanish. And the world turns. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 25, 2015 16:04:40 GMT -5
1. When the person speaking another language is in a position of authority. If I drive through China Town, get pulled over, and the police there only speak Chinese, that's a problem. Granted, this is NOT the reality, but the fear is that it could be. 2. When a person who doesn't speak English needs to be able to communicate. Again, the situation with being pulled over, but now reverse the parties. I am an officer who pulls over a person who cannot speak English. This is a problem. I don't see #1 as a rational concern. I mean, has that ever happened in the history of America? No reason to think it's going to happen any time soon. I don't much regard irrational concerns like that. Also, requiring applicants to speak a certain language is not the same as requiring citizens to. It's perfectly okay to require applicants for certain jobs to speak English. Or to be bilingual, which many government jobs here in the Southwest do require. Yeah, that's definitely irrational. I put that one right up there with allowing Muslims to establish Mosques in the the States invites Sharia Law to become formally practiced and enforced. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 16:05:28 GMT -5
I tend to think you should be able to speak English if you're going to live here in the States, and that's coming from someone who is insanely liberal on social issues. Right to choose? Absolutely. Free health Care for everyone? Right on. Equal rights for all LGBT peoples? Damn Straight! But no national language? I think that has to change, and for similar reasons to what DE said above. It's nice to say that everybody here should be free to speak what ever language they want, and in their own homes and private businesses that's totally acceptable, but in the public space that creates some serious issues. Again, it's nice to say that people in positions of authority should be equipped to handle different languages, but as DE pointed out with so many different immigrants out there it just isn't realistic and it creates situations where people who badly need service aren't receiving it at the level that they deserve. A further anecdote on this from me: I speak Spanish pretty well, my mother is Spanish Californian (her term not mine),I graduated high school as a member of the Spanish National Honor Society and continued to take Spanish as an elective through out my years at college. Now, it's been six years since I graduated and I've spoken Spanish infrequently since then so I am rusty, but I'd still say my vocabulary is at least conversational; however that skill is pretty useless to me at work as the Spanish I learned in the academic setting is totally different than the language the Guatemalan and Ecuadorian customers I interact with every day. I pick up like one out of every three words these guys are saying (and like wise with their understanding of me I'm sure)and as such most of the time I'm unable to fully help them with the projects they're working on. I've tried picking up books to help understand them better...but they just don't exist so it's not possible for me do it on my own time, but there are plenty of books, tapes and other programs available on how to speak English. And I know that just like me, these guys are working two and three jobs to make ends meet so they don't have a lot of time to learn but given where they are it really is a necessity and time has to be found. I mean, I'm non-essential, I'm just helping them put up fencing, roofing and patios, so its not life or death if we misunderstand each other but I often worry about what would happen if one of them was hurt on the job. If they needed serious medical attention and couldn't convey allergies or what medicines they might be on...what then? We're only a couple years away from Star Trek level voice activated translators being a $1.99 app on our phones. thenextweb.com/microsoft/2015/06/08/skypes-futuristic-voice-translator-will-soon-be-part-of-the-main-app/ |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jun 25, 2015 16:06:33 GMT -5
Responding to the phrase I bolded: a good idea, but not always practical. They can't always choose where to go, especially if they're using public assistance. My wife manages an optical store and regularly gets people sent in on public assistance (called Title 19 here) for government paid glasses/exams who speak little to no English. Because of the low reimbursement rate for the store, few places want to provide the Title 19 exams & glasses. This then requires either an interpreter, at taxpayer expense, or a bi-lingual family member to come with to communicate, or causes extreme difficulty in communicating the options. Some may say that she should become bi-lingual to serve them, but she gets people speaking only Spanish, Hmong, Indian, among others, and to expect her to learn all those for a job that pays less than many retail sales positions, is unreasonable.
I'm not saying that English should be the "official" language, but I do believe that if people who move here don't at least learn the basics of English, they are doing themselves a huge disservice.
People who smoke are doing themselves a huge disservice. People who eat too many hamburgers. People who drive instead of walk. Also, having grown up in Coachella, I can see some communities where speaking English is completely unnecessary. And I know people personally who are native born American citizens whose second language is English, and who struggle with the language to this day, in their 40's. They're still American citizens and taxpayers. The thought that they should have to pass an English exam to be considered citizens is offensive to me, and a bit bigoted. Would fluency in English open up some opportunities for them? Probably. Or probably not since they work in construction anyway, but maybe it could have early on. Are there people who maybe would have had more opportunities if they weren't homeschooled on creationist curriculum? Yep. But lets not take away their citizenship over it. I'm not really sure why you quoted me on that, since I didn't say any of those things or anything close. I didn't say that English should be the official language, or that anyone should be required to pass an English exam, or that anyone should have their citizenship taken away. I said that they are hurting themselves in many cases by not knowing at least the basics of English. Can they get by in their construction jobs without English? Perhaps. Would they have had better, more high paying options available than construction if they knew English? That's my point. If I moved to France I would expect to have a very hard time living and working without learning French, whether it was the official language or not. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 16:11:07 GMT -5
Would they have had better, more high paying options available than construction if they knew English? That's my point. Probably not, and that is my point. It's only anecdotal, but those two people I mention, they're brothers. Grew up speaking Spanish in the home, then struggled learning it in school. They were probably around 10 years old when they started being able to communicate in the language at all, and now are somewhat conversational, but not fluent by any stretch. But I know plenty of other people who grew up with English as their first language who were born and raised in Coachella, and none of them are doing as well as those two brothers. It's not a place where people succeed, no matter what you speak. Most people I know don't have a house, car, job, phone, and are still wearing the tee shirt and jeans they bought in 9th grade. English didn't help them any. That's not typically where success comes from. So not much point worrying about it. Drywall is about as good a job as anyone in that city can aspire to no matter their native language. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 25, 2015 16:15:40 GMT -5
I tend to think you should be able to speak English if you're going to live here in the States, and that's coming from someone who is insanely liberal on social issues. Right to choose? Absolutely. Free health Care for everyone? Right on. Equal rights for all LGBT peoples? Damn Straight! But no national language? I think that has to change, and for similar reasons to what DE said above. It's nice to say that everybody here should be free to speak what ever language they want, and in their own homes and private businesses that's totally acceptable, but in the public space that creates some serious issues. Again, it's nice to say that people in positions of authority should be equipped to handle different languages, but as DE pointed out with so many different immigrants out there it just isn't realistic and it creates situations where people who badly need service aren't receiving it at the level that they deserve. A further anecdote on this from me: I speak Spanish pretty well, my mother is Spanish Californian (her term not mine),I graduated high school as a member of the Spanish National Honor Society and continued to take Spanish as an elective through out my years at college. Now, it's been six years since I graduated and I've spoken Spanish infrequently since then so I am rusty, but I'd still say my vocabulary is at least conversational; however that skill is pretty useless to me at work as the Spanish I learned in the academic setting is totally different than the language the Guatemalan and Ecuadorian customers I interact with every day. I pick up like one out of every three words these guys are saying (and like wise with their understanding of me I'm sure)and as such most of the time I'm unable to fully help them with the projects they're working on. I've tried picking up books to help understand them better...but they just don't exist so it's not possible for me do it on my own time, but there are plenty of books, tapes and other programs available on how to speak English. And I know that just like me, these guys are working two and three jobs to make ends meet so they don't have a lot of time to learn but given where they are it really is a necessity and time has to be found. I mean, I'm non-essential, I'm just helping them put up fencing, roofing and patios, so its not life or death if we misunderstand each other but I often worry about what would happen if one of them was hurt on the job. If they needed serious medical attention and couldn't convey allergies or what medicines they might be on...what then? We're only a couple years away from Star Trek level voice activated translators being a $1.99 app on our phones. thenextweb.com/microsoft/2015/06/08/skypes-futuristic-voice-translator-will-soon-be-part-of-the-main-app/That's pretty awesome, though currently it looks like it wouldn't help me out. But still, in the not too distant future who knows? |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 25, 2015 16:22:08 GMT -5
People who smoke are doing themselves a huge disservice. People who eat too many hamburgers. People who drive instead of walk. Also, having grown up in Coachella, I can see some communities where speaking English is completely unnecessary. And I know people personally who are native born American citizens whose second language is English, and who struggle with the language to this day, in their 40's. They're still American citizens and taxpayers. The thought that they should have to pass an English exam to be considered citizens is offensive to me, and a bit bigoted. Would fluency in English open up some opportunities for them? Probably. Or probably not since they work in construction anyway, but maybe it could have early on. Are there people who maybe would have had more opportunities if they weren't homeschooled on creationist curriculum? Yep. But lets not take away their citizenship over it. I'm not really sure why you quoted me on that, since I didn't say any of those things or anything close. I didn't say that English should be the official language, or that anyone should be required to pass an English exam, or that anyone should have their citizenship taken away. I said that they are hurting themselves in many cases by not knowing at least the basics of English. Can they get by in their construction jobs without English? Perhaps. Would they have had better, more high paying options available than construction if they knew English? That's my point. If I moved to France I would expect to have a very hard time living and working without learning French, whether it was the official language or not. That's generally my feeling as well, if I was forced to move somewhere that English was not the primary language I'd work my ass off to learn what ever language was spoken so that I'd have a better chance at a better life. Which I think goes towards Dupont's point about Coechella; it's an impoverished area and English or not you're options are going to be limited however knowing the dominate language does improve your chances, there's no guarantee but being able to effectively communicate is a step in the right direction. Whether that step pays off or not is anybodies' guess but it certainly doesn't hinder you. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 25, 2015 17:14:04 GMT -5
Wow... LOTS of responses! @ Shax: I understand what you're saying about language, but I disagree. If I decided to move to Germany tomorrow, I'd learn German first, to the best of my ability. I would probably suck at it, but I would try, and, theorically, get better as time passed. I'm not particularly young (40 last week), so it's not like I'm a kid. I was just in Miami for several days, and I had trouble EVERY SINGLE DAY ordering lunch in English. That's just wrong, IMO. English should be our official language.. it's only not because of overly rampant political correctness. It has nothing to do with culture, but everything to do with logic and simplicity. How much money do big companies have to spend to have literature in different languages? Or Signs? Or hiring extra people? That waste can be removed if we just all speak the same language. I'm in a pretty white-bread community, and they still offer most things in Spanish, Portuguese and French here... for the perhaps 5% of the people that need it. That's unfair to the 95% of us that don't need it, but have to pay for it. Dupont asked how I'm impacted... I had to waste at least an hour of my time during my 3 day trip in trying to get various and sundry merchants to understand me. If I was travelling abroad, that would be fine. In my own country, it's extremely annoying. Then there's the issue of people at a business I'm patronizing speaking another language in front of me, a customer. How do I know they're not saying 'this guy's a live one, let's charge him extra'. Or, 'he's white, give him the crappy stuff'?' Again, if I was travelling and choose not to learn the language of the place I was visiting, that's on me, and I accept it. In MY country, I don't think so I certainly am all for people voting with their dollars (As Shax suggested) but that's not really an option in, say, Miami, where I was. There's also a matter of what is for sale/or services offered. If I'm in a clearly Hispanic community, and I go into a Mexican restaurant where the sign and menu displayed is in Spanish, I get it. I'll suck it up or go there. If, OTOH, I try to park I the only public lot, and try to ask a question(it wasn't clear if overnight was allowed), and they have to go get a manager because no one else speaks English, and no one knows what is a pretty basic answer, that's a problem, IMO @dupont: With respect, whoever raised your brothers did them a huge disservice not making sure they know the dominant language of the country they are living in. It's great to have culture and variety, but you can't have culture and variety at the exclusion of what everyone else is doing. I actually do NOT agree that you deserve representation if you don't speak English. If you can't be bothered to learn the language, how can you possibly understand a political issue? I understand that's harsh, but that's how I feel. We have enough idiots voting that do speak the language. If there was a way to do it and not alienate even more people, I'd love there to be a test to take before you vote. I agree that discrimination and racism is a problem. You know what would help? If those that are discriminated against made some small effort to assimilate. The fact that some refuse to learn English and expect everything from their home country to be reproduced here is wrong. Why come if you don't want to be here? How many racists use that as an excuse? I think we're on the verge of fixing the police issue... I really do. It's a big issue now, as you know. I hold out joyful hope on that score. The citizenship thing is very tricky as it is now. For me, it should be simple. If you work here and pay taxes, you can stay as a non-resident worker or whatever. If you want to be a citizen, have someplace to live, learn the language, pass a test, and you're in. That's in\t. No hoops, no ridiculous backlog. Half the problem is it's really hard to become a citizen, and it shouldn't be. On Polls: Any good pollster can find a way to get the poll to say what the people asking for the poll want it to say. For the data to be at all useful, there needs to be multiple polls run by different people with different methods of choosing the respondants. I made my comments with no concern as to what the majority wants..it's just want I want  |
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