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Post by tingramretro on Sept 28, 2015 6:54:40 GMT -5
Really? I did like Shooter's run... I particularly enjoyed his unconventional Molecule Man two parter with Alan Lee Weiss. I can see how you could say that his stories could feel flat at times, though. The story in which he killed Drax (a minor character at the time, but still a fan-favourite among certain readers) was curiously devoid of emotion. It might have suffered from the lackluster Bob Hall artwork. Man, art is SO important to the finished product. It can bring you to tears or bore you to tears. I rather liked Bob Hall's art on that run...
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Post by Cei-U! on Sept 28, 2015 8:12:44 GMT -5
Jim Shooter had two runs on Avengers, #158-177 and #211-222 (with fill-in issues by other scripters during both). Some of the previous posts conflate the two.
Cei-U! I summon the point of order!
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 28, 2015 8:38:28 GMT -5
Jim Shooter had two runs on Avengers, #158-177 and #211-222 (with fill-in issues by other scripters during both). Some of the previous posts conflate the two. Cei-U! I summon the point of order! Funny enough, but I'm partial to his second run with the Yellowjacket saga.
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Post by Cei-U! on Sept 28, 2015 9:35:26 GMT -5
Jim Shooter had two runs on Avengers, #158-177 and #211-222 (with fill-in issues by other scripters during both). Some of the previous posts conflate the two. Cei-U! I summon the point of order! Funny enough, but I'm partial to his second run with the Yellowjacket saga. So am I, 'bone. I hated it when it was coming out (I missed Beast and Wonder Man) but found when I reread it a few years back that I actually liked it a lot. He took some real chances in his portrayal of Henry Pym as a man falling apart piece by piece. I'm less fond of the first run (though the Count Nefaria arc he did with Byrne in #164-66 is one of my all-time faves) mostly because the Korvac storyline dragged on forever (and, of course, I'm not big on "kozmik" characters anyway). It was written to Perez's strengths so had a humongous cast. Poor David Wenzel (whose art on The Wizard's Tale I really dig) was stuck having to wrap it up, apparently following Shooter's cramped, dull, Weisingeresque breakdowns. Cei-U! I summon my two cents' worth!
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 2, 2015 2:56:03 GMT -5
Insight requested, please! If I could care less about watching a reimagining of the death of Oscar Wilde completely derail the ongoing Cerebus storyline, what is to enjoy in this volume??? It's been a while since I read it so some details might be fuzzy. Same thing here. I read the phonebooks as they came out, with a 5 year lag for the first ones (I started collecting them in '91). Cerebus was a little sloppy, but it quickly improved and High Society, was already pretty solid. From that point on, up to Guys, I consider it a must. I agree with sax about not skipping any of it, on a second reading, but I'll need to accumulate a lot of "hunger", to do it.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 2, 2015 2:59:22 GMT -5
I thought Denny O'Neil's runs on Iron Man and Daredevil were both horrendous, especially considering the runs that immediately preceded them (Michelinie/Layton and Miller, respectively). He drove me away from both titles. Frankly, I don't like anything he wrote at Marvel. He just didn't to gel with the characters or capture the Marvel feel. Cei-U! I summon the fish out of water! Did you know he wrote Spider-man? I've never read it and I've never heard anyone mention it, ever. And I spend at lest 70% of my time reading about Spider-man. Look no further.
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Post by Spike-X on Oct 2, 2015 3:06:13 GMT -5
The run of Cerebus where Dave Sim suddenly decided to make it all about What I Reckon About Famous Dead Writers And Their Wives killed all interest in that book for me. I've still never finished it. And I was a HUGE Cerebus fan up to around issue #200 or so.
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Post by Spike-X on Oct 2, 2015 3:09:14 GMT -5
I am glad I only read up to issue 300. And let's go with the blindingly obvious answer: Cerebus. Hell, on some level I even liked READS (at least the first half) but Dave's Bible Fan-Fiction towards the end was just a slog. This is the only part of a GREAT comic I couldn't make it through. I heartily disliked the last few years of Cerebus, but not because of a lack of quality in the comic itself... It was like reading Plato and going "no, no, NO" because I disagree with what the author is saying. Dave's crucifixion of the Hemingways and the way he had Cerebus be a complete dick in his relationship with Jaka grated my nerves, and as an atheist I was annoyed by the author replacing his comic-book storyline by a religious pamphlet. But at the same time there were many good things all the way to the end. My major gripe about those years is that Cerebus as a book seemed to lose its way. The big buildup that went on for years led to pretty much nothing: the expected confrontation with the Cirinists was settled off page in only one issue, and Cerebus' entire life afte that was brushed under the carpet as we fast forwarded decades in the future to see him as an old man dealing with religious questions. It could be argued that this was meant to reflect the way real life looks to anyone who lives long enough: a lot of stuff happens when we're young, and then there's this kind of blurred period preceding the moment you realize you're old, thinking in tems of decades instead of months and wondering where the time went. But in the comic, that's not quite how it felt; as a reader, I felt a little cheated. I was ready to read lengthy interludes dealing with Oscar Wilde and F. Scott Fitzgerald, but only if they were to be followed by a resumption of the main plot. That was not to be: Cirin just faded away, Suentus Po was forgotten, we never saw Astoria again, Cerebus himself turned out not to be someone that important... and even the interesting new develoments (Cerebus stupidly falling for a woman who looked like Jaka, his difficult relationship with his son, the rise of a new religion echoing Islam) were handled as an afterthought, feeling like an excuse for the writer to tell us about his new found faith. It's unfortunate that such an ambitious project, which was brilliant for half of its run,did not fulfill its promise. Still, the art (and the lettering, which was spectacular) was amazing to the end. Cerebus's voyage through the solar system is still one of the best outer space sequence I've ever seen in any medium. Sim and Gerhard were amazing in everything they drew. Damn. Sounds like I haven't missed much. Although I will say, if you expected Cerebus not to be a complete dick in his relationship with Jaka, you really hadn't been paying attention.
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Post by berkley on Oct 2, 2015 3:17:55 GMT -5
Jim Shooter had two runs on Avengers, #158-177 and #211-222 (with fill-in issues by other scripters during both). Some of the previous posts conflate the two. Cei-U! I summon the point of order! Yeah, I don't remember the death of Drax, so I assume that must have been from the 2nd Shooter run, by which time I'd already quit the series and Marvel in general. Unless it happened sometime during the Korvac Saga, which I don't remember too well not having read it for decades. I'm pretty much talking about distant memories, some fairly vivid, but many others, probably the majority, rather hazy. But I do recall my impressions and feelings from back then quite clearly (or so it seems to me) and I definitely gave up on the Avengers as a series after the end of the Korvac thing. Not that I thought then or even now that it was a terrible story - just not a particularly good one, on the whole. I was caught up in it enough at the time to finish it and even now there are bits and pieces I think worked quite well. But all the same, by the end of it I couldn't avoid the realisation that it was mainly Perez's artwork that had been keeping me interested in the series and once he left I felt no desire to continue following it.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 2, 2015 15:52:55 GMT -5
The run of Cerebus where Dave Sim suddenly decided to make it all about What I Reckon About Famous Dead Writers And Their Wives killed all interest in that book for me. I've still never finished it. And I was a HUGE Cerebus fan up to around issue #200 or so. There was certainly stuff after that which felt like "Classic" Cerebus to me. The first half of "Going Home" starting with issue 232 is one of the series absolute high points - and some of the FUNNIEST comics I've ever read. And I even kind of liked the ending, although it bothered me when I read it. "That's it?!! Just nothing?!!" But there are still bits of Cerebus I've never worked my way through. Most of Guys... and damn near everything between GOing Home and the Ending.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 2, 2015 20:57:01 GMT -5
Damn. Sounds like I haven't missed much. Although I will say, if you expected Cerebus not to be a complete dick in his relationship with Jaka, you really hadn't been paying attention. Heh! Heh! Good call. Cerebus did behave like a prick with Jaka before. What was really sad in the penultimate arc is that the two of them really did have a chance to make it work. But Cerebus was totally ill-suited to behave like an adult, and not only did he destroy the relationship, he also found a wat to make it sound like it was Jaka's fault. That would have been fine by me... after all, it was pretty much in character... but Dave Sim later said things in interviews that made it sound as if he, too, thought that it was Jaka's fault.
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Post by fanboystranger on Oct 2, 2015 21:39:36 GMT -5
Jim Shooter had two runs on Avengers, #158-177 and #211-222 (with fill-in issues by other scripters during both). Some of the previous posts conflate the two. Cei-U! I summon the point of order! Yeah, I don't remember the death of Drax, so I assume that must have been from the 2nd Shooter run, by which time I'd already quit the series and Marvel in general. Unless it happened sometime during the Korvac Saga, which I don't remember too well not having read it for decades. I'm pretty much talking about distant memories, some fairly vivid, but many others, probably the majority, rather hazy. But I do recall my impressions and feelings from back then quite clearly (or so it seems to me) and I definitely gave up on the Avengers as a series after the end of the Korvac thing. Not that I thought then or even now that it was a terrible story - just not a particularly good one, on the whole. I was caught up in it enough at the time to finish it and even now there are bits and pieces I think worked quite well. But all the same, by the end of it I couldn't avoid the realisation that it was mainly Perez's artwork that had been keeping me interested in the series and once he left I felt no desire to continue following it. The death of Drax was Avengers 220. It was also part of a story that served to basically ruin Moondragon, although Peter Gillis would mitigate that a bit in his New Defenders run. It did seem like Shooter had it out for certain Avengers characters in his second run-- Ms Marvel in the bizarre A 200, Hank Pym and Jan throughout the whole thing, Moondragon in A 219-200. On the other hand, there was the absolutely beautiful two-parter featuring Tigra fighting well above her weight class drawn by Alan Weiss. Those are by far the two best issues in that run.
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Post by berkley on Oct 2, 2015 21:49:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't remember the death of Drax, so I assume that must have been from the 2nd Shooter run, by which time I'd already quit the series and Marvel in general. Unless it happened sometime during the Korvac Saga, which I don't remember too well not having read it for decades. I'm pretty much talking about distant memories, some fairly vivid, but many others, probably the majority, rather hazy. But I do recall my impressions and feelings from back then quite clearly (or so it seems to me) and I definitely gave up on the Avengers as a series after the end of the Korvac thing. Not that I thought then or even now that it was a terrible story - just not a particularly good one, on the whole. I was caught up in it enough at the time to finish it and even now there are bits and pieces I think worked quite well. But all the same, by the end of it I couldn't avoid the realisation that it was mainly Perez's artwork that had been keeping me interested in the series and once he left I felt no desire to continue following it. The death of Drax was Avengers 220. It was also part of a story that served to basically ruin Moondragon, although Peter Gillis would mitigate that a bit in his New Defenders run. It did seem like Shooter had it out for certain Avengers characters in his second run-- Ms Marvel in the bizarre A 200, Hank Pym and Jan throughout the whole thing, Moondragon in A 219-200. On the other hand, there was the absolutely beautiful two-parter featuring Tigra fighting well above her weight class drawn by Alan Weiss. Those are by far the two best issues in that run. Wait, I have read that story now that I think of it. Not at the time, but years later, when I first started getting back into Marvel comics in the late 90s or early 2000s. Yeah, I thought Moondragon was a great addition to Englehart's Avengers but no one else since has seemed able to get a handle on the character, least of all Jim Shooter. I looked at that Defenders follow-up too, having heard there was some attempt at character redemption there but found it pretty dire, to be honest. Very little I've seen after the fact from the Marvel comics I missed from the early 80s through to the late 90s has made me regret giving up on the company back then.
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Post by Spike-X on Oct 3, 2015 0:22:40 GMT -5
Damn. Sounds like I haven't missed much. Although I will say, if you expected Cerebus not to be a complete dick in his relationship with Jaka, you really hadn't been paying attention. Heh! Heh! Good call. Cerebus did behave like a prick with Jaka before. Cerebus behaved like a prick with everyone, is my point. Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 3, 2015 6:49:58 GMT -5
The death of Drax was Avengers 220. It was also part of a story that served to basically ruin Moondragon, although Peter Gillis would mitigate that a bit in his New Defenders run. It did seem like Shooter had it out for certain Avengers characters in his second run-- Ms Marvel in the bizarre A 200, Hank Pym and Jan throughout the whole thing, Moondragon in A 219-200. On the other hand, there was the absolutely beautiful two-parter featuring Tigra fighting well above her weight class drawn by Alan Weiss. Those are by far the two best issues in that run. Wait, I have read that story now that I think of it. Not at the time, but years later, when I first started getting back into Marvel comics in the late 90s or early 2000s. Yeah, I thought Moondragon was a great addition to Englehart's Avengers but no one else since has seemed able to get a handle on the character, least of all Jim Shooter. I looked at that Defenders follow-up too, having heard there was some attempt at character redemption there but found it pretty dire, to be honest. Very little I've seen after the fact from the Marvel comics I missed from the early 80s through to the late 90s has made me regret giving up on the company back then. I always thought that Moondragon was established to be an arrogant ass. Just about every version has that trait consistently portrayed.
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