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Post by spoon on Oct 3, 2015 8:34:45 GMT -5
Funny enough, but I'm partial to his second run with the Yellowjacket saga. So am I, 'bone. I hated it when it was coming out (I missed Beast and Wonder Man) but found when I reread it a few years back that I actually liked it a lot. He took some real chances in his portrayal of Henry Pym as a man falling apart piece by piece. I'm less fond of the first run (though the Count Nefaria arc he did with Byrne in #164-66 is one of my all-time faves) mostly because the Korvac storyline dragged on forever (and, of course, I'm not big on "kozmik" characters anyway). It was written to Perez's strengths so had a humongous cast. Poor David Wenzel (whose art on The Wizard's Tale I really dig) was stuck having to wrap it up, apparently following Shooter's cramped, dull, Weisingeresque breakdowns. Cei-U! I summon my two cents' worth! I've read every issue of Avengers through the end of the Korvac Saga (except I think one of two in the gap between my transition from Essential TPBs to floppies). The Korvac Saga is my least favorite arc up to that point. It starts off like it going somewhere and then just stops developing. Sometimes, a story gets called "epic" due to cosmic scope, with lackluster execution.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 3, 2015 8:52:15 GMT -5
Heh! Heh! Good call. Cerebus did behave like a prick with Jaka before. Cerebus behaved like a prick with everyone, is my point. Well, he would say that, wouldn't he? Unfortunately, it's very likely, yes. Sim is infamous for his editorial pieces where he aired his anti-feminist views, and in turn these caused him to lose many readers. Personally I think it caused many readers to start saying -wrongly- that the Cerebus storyline was misogynistic. I can't see it as such because the women in Cerebus are usually behaving in a much more mature way than the male characters; that Cerebus himself is a prick to women doesn't make the book anti-woman any more than having racist characters in Uncle Tom's cabin makes it a racist book. It's always a bit disappointing when you find out what an author actually thinks. People have long decried the Robert E. Howard story Black Canaan as a racist one, because it features characters using racist slurs and has white-skinned Americans fighting black-skinned ones. But judging the story on its own merits, it would be easy to demonstrate that the black men in it are fighting a system that denies them basic human rights, and that the white men are trying to enforce an unfair system that ensures their privilege. It's like the Rebels vs the Empire, with the n word thrown in. However, reading Howard's letters, it's easy to see that this wasn't the author's intention after all. He really was a bloody racist, as was the society he lived in. (Not as bad as Lovecraft, but a racist still). Dave Sim's Cerebus can almost be read as a feminist book if one sticks to the actual storyline: clearly, in it, women aren't shown to be inferior to men and they have the same qualities, faults, pettiness and courage than the guys. Some of them (Astoria, Jaka) are even superior to the average man. This, however, seems to be something of an accident since the author claimed after the series was over that Jaka was a selfish brat or words to that effect (a description that can hardly apply to the character we saw in the book). It's as if Sim crafted his story by acurately depicting the way people behave in the real world, but with a personal interpretation that was apparently colored by his own complicated relation with the "gender opposite". It doesn't take anything away from the comic itself, though. What really hurt it is it being turned into an odd religion pamphlet instead of focusing on finishing its storyline.
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Post by Spike-X on Oct 3, 2015 19:59:20 GMT -5
It certainly seemed to be, until about half way through. Then it's like a switch flipped in his head and he decided that women were the source of all wrong in the world.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 3, 2015 21:07:23 GMT -5
Cerebus Spoiler Although at the end it turns out that Cerebus is half-woman, which explains his terrible behavior. Obviously.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 3, 2015 21:48:37 GMT -5
It certainly seemed to be, until about half way through. Then it's like a switch flipped in his head and he decided that women were the source of all wrong in the world. The editorial pages definitely say so, but I don't see the same thing in the storyline. In the Women arc, Astoria realizes that her actions will only bring her misery, that she never wanted power and unquestioning obedience. She then turns her back on her political career. That has to be the most mature thing any character ever did in the series. In the Reads arc, a writer is seduced by the comfort that money brings and finally accepts to compromise his artistic integrity to keep the cash pouring in. He blames it on his girlfriend, but that's clearly a feeble excuse... anyone in an adult relationship could tell their significant other "sorry, darling, I know it means we'll have less money, but I just can't go that way professionally". That Viktor Davis fellow is just weak. When Cerebus is stuck in that infernal bar in Guys and Rick's story, all male and female characters act like immature and emotionally dependent jerks. Nobody ends up looking good, neither men nor women. During the F. Scott Fitzgerald storyline, Cerebus acts like a jealous prick while Jaka is bending backwards to soothe his ego even when he's clearly stopping her from pursuing her own dreams. And she cleverly saves his life at the end. That arc is certainly not misogynistic. During the Hemingway period, Cerebus blames Jaka for delaying their journey through the mountain passes. Of course, being Cerebus, he never bothers to inform her that time is of the essence and that winter will soon prevent them from reaching their destination. Once again it's a guy who's acting like an idiot, not a woman. He then irrationally blames her for not having been present for his father's death... a father he left behind years and years ago. All I could think of saying to the little gray runt as he was berating his girlfriend was "for heaven's sake, man, grow up". And then we get into the religious phase, where a young Jaka lookalike manages to make herself into a powerful religious figure. What can I say? Women can be ambitious, too. As I said, I am not blind to Dave Sim's anti-feminism rants (although his anti-atheist rants stung just as hard), but the Cerebus story itself never struck me as being misogynistic. Certainly less so than the exploitative Titties-fests that could be seen in certain superhero comics at the same time!
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Post by fanboystranger on Oct 3, 2015 22:57:48 GMT -5
Wait, I have read that story now that I think of it. Not at the time, but years later, when I first started getting back into Marvel comics in the late 90s or early 2000s. Yeah, I thought Moondragon was a great addition to Englehart's Avengers but no one else since has seemed able to get a handle on the character, least of all Jim Shooter. I looked at that Defenders follow-up too, having heard there was some attempt at character redemption there but found it pretty dire, to be honest. Very little I've seen after the fact from the Marvel comics I missed from the early 80s through to the late 90s has made me regret giving up on the company back then. I always thought that Moondragon was established to be an arrogant ass. Just about every version has that trait consistently portrayed. Arrogant, sure. Attracted to power, yeah. Thought her way was better than everyone else's, definitely. Murderous, will-sapping dictator, though? She was effectively made a villain in that arc.
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Post by berkley on Oct 4, 2015 0:02:37 GMT -5
I always thought that Moondragon was established to be an arrogant ass. Just about every version has that trait consistently portrayed. Arrogant, sure. Attracted to power, yeah. Thought her way was better than everyone else's, definitely. Murderous, will-sapping dictator, though? She was effectively made a villain in that arc. Arrogant perhaps, but not an ass - IOW this was a powerful figure that had to be respected whether you liked her or not. There's little doubt in my mind that there was a strong element of misogyny involved in the transformation of this character first into a villain then to a kind of weak, misguided soul in need of "redemption". One reason I can't take too seriously all this talk of how Marvel is striking a blow for gender equality by doing things like making Thor and Captain Marvel females or giving us yet another She-Hulk series is that they've never shown any signs of recognising the strongest and most original female characters that have been gifted to them by writers like Englehart (Mantis, Moondragon) and Kirby (Thena, from the Eternals), or of trying to redress the mishandling they've been subjected to over the years by incompetent or just plain hostile writers.
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Post by Spike-X on Oct 4, 2015 1:23:34 GMT -5
It certainly seemed to be, until about half way through. Then it's like a switch flipped in his head and he decided that women were the source of all wrong in the world. The editorial pages definitely say so, but I don't see the same thing in the storyline. In the Women arc, Astoria realizes that her actions will only bring her misery, that she never wanted power and unquestioning obedience. She then turns her back on her political career. That has to be the most mature thing any character ever did in the series. In the Reads arc, a writer is seduced by the comfort that money brings and finally accepts to compromise his artistic integrity to keep the cash poring in. He blames it on his girlfriend, but that's clearly a feeble excuse... anyone in an adult relationship could tell their significant other "sorry, darling, I know it means we'll have less money, but I just can't go that way professionally". That Viktor Davis fellow is just weak. When Cerebus is stuck in that infernal bar in Guys and Rick's story, all male and female characters act like immature and emotionally dependent jerks. Nobody ends up looking good, neither men nor women. During the F. Scott Fitzgerald storyline, Cerebus acts like a jealous prick while Jaka is bending backwards to soothe his ego even when he's clearly stopping her from pursuing her own dreams. And she cleverly saves his life at the end. That arc is certainly not misogynistic. During the Hemingway period, Cerebus blames Jaka for delaying their journey through the mountain passes. Of course, being Cerebus, he never bothers to inform her that time is of the essence and that winter will soon prevent them from reaching their destination. Once again it's a guy who's acting like an idiot, not a woman. He then irrationally blames her for not having been present for his father's death... a father he left behind years and years ago. All I could think of saying the little gray runt as he was berating his girlfriend was "for heaven's sake, man, grow up". And then we get into the religious phase, where a young Jaka lookalike manages to make herself into a powerful religious figure. What can I say? Women can be ambitious, too. As I said, I am not blind to Dave Sim's anti-feminism rants (although his anti-atheist rants stung just as hard), but the Cerebus story itself never struck me as being misogynistic. Certainly less so than the exploitative Titties-fests that could be seen in certain superhero comics at the same time! Fair enough. It's been years since I've read any Cerebus, so my memory is somewhat hazy.
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Post by berkley on Oct 7, 2015 2:06:02 GMT -5
I've always had one question about Cerebus the series: why Cerebus the Aardvark? It's always seemed to me totally unnecessary from a purely creative POV: from the little I've read, Cerebus as a character would have worked as well or even better if he'd been a male human character.
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 7, 2015 2:27:02 GMT -5
Jim Shooter had two runs on Avengers, #158-177 and #211-222 (with fill-in issues by other scripters during both). Some of the previous posts conflate the two. Cei-U! I summon the point of order! Funny enough, but I'm partial to his second run with the Yellowjacket saga. So am I. It was the first interesting thing anyone had done with the character in years.
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Post by foxley on Oct 7, 2015 2:48:01 GMT -5
I've always had one question about Cerebus the series: why Cerebus the Aardvark? It's always seemed to me totally unnecessary from a purely creative POV: from the little I've read, Cerebus as a character would have worked as well or even better if he'd been a male human character. My understanding is that the books was originally intended to be a simple parody of sword-and-sorcery fantasy, so a funny animal barbarian hero fits in that milieu. However, the book soon morphed into something very different.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 7, 2015 15:29:51 GMT -5
I've always had one question about Cerebus the series: why Cerebus the Aardvark? It's always seemed to me totally unnecessary from a purely creative POV: from the little I've read, Cerebus as a character would have worked as well or even better if he'd been a male human character. I'm not so sure, he was barely tolerable, as a funny animal.
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Post by Gene on Oct 7, 2015 16:22:24 GMT -5
The post-9/11 Marvel Knights Captain America book. Within two story arcs, it went from Cap symbolically avenging the victims of the attacks by beating "totally not Bin Laden, you guys" to uncovering a nefarious conspiracy perpetrated by the U.S. government that retconned the events of Avengers #4.
It says a lot that the best arc of the book used the cliché plot of "what if the Nazis won the war."
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Post by Spike-X on Oct 8, 2015 3:33:10 GMT -5
I've always had one question about Cerebus the series: why Cerebus the Aardvark? It's always seemed to me totally unnecessary from a purely creative POV: from the little I've read, Cerebus as a character would have worked as well or even better if he'd been a male human character. He was originally the cartoon mascot for...something...then, as Foxley said, the comic started out as a funny-animal parody of Barry Windsor-Smith's Conan. It was around issue twenty, I believe, when Sim realized he was onto something a lot bigger.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Oct 8, 2015 10:56:04 GMT -5
The post-9/11 Marvel Knights Captain America book. Within two story arcs, it went from Cap symbolically avenging the victims of the attacks by beating "totally not Bin Laden, you guys" to uncovering a nefarious conspiracy perpetrated by the U.S. government that retconned the events of Avengers #4. It says a lot that the best arc of the book used the cliché plot of "what if the Nazis won the war." I agree that that run started out terribly, but... this gives me the apportunity to mention my favorite Captain America writer ever, even better than Ed Brubaker : Robert Morales! Aftre those initial terrible issues from John Ney Rieber, Chuck Austen (and some Dave Gibbons issues I don't even remember) came Robert Morales of "Truth : Red White & Black", another incredible Cap story drawn by Kyle Baker. Starting with issue #21 and for 7 more issues, Morales crafted one of the most political Cap story ever and a great thriller, all with great Bachalo and Eddy Campbell artwork. This was probably the first time I read a Cap story I felt I could recommend to anyone who wouldn't be into superheroes. So that post 9/11 run had that great merit IMHO.
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