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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 15, 2016 9:34:12 GMT -5
I can think of a few comics that are more over-rated than Born Again. The Long Halloween comes to mind.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 15, 2016 10:29:02 GMT -5
Four comics ( Watchmen, Born Again, Year One and TDKR) don't represent a a genre, not by a long shot. If you now would state that those four stories are the exceptional exceptions to the super hero genre, that would still put the genre with four works at the top of the whole medium, with implied conclusions. Which remains a statement that requires many of us over here to remain polite when we call this preposterous. Those conclusion are inferred by you, not implied by me. If the average for superhero comics is, say, 4.25 and the average for other genres is about 5, which one is on top? 4 comics are statically irrelevant. Preposterous? Baffled? Your restrain needs training. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 15, 2016 10:53:26 GMT -5
If you now would state that those four stories are the exceptional exceptions to the super hero genre, that would still put the genre with four works at the top of the whole medium, with implied conclusions. Which remains a statement that requires many of us over here to remain polite when we call this preposterous. Those conclusion are inferred by you, not implied by me. If the average for superhero comics is, say, 4.25 and the average for other genres is about 5, which one is on top? 4 comics are statically irrelevant. Preposterous? Baffled? Your restrain needs training. ... This is getting weird : I'm the one who implied this is irrelevant if even to be taken seriously. Didn't you explicitly state that those four super hero comics are greater than any other in the history of the medium? oh, and and the presposterosity of that statement is just an opinion as well, no question, but this was far from the first adjective that came to my mind, hence the restrain. It's quite funny were having this argument though, being that we're the two members over here who chose aliases referencing Watchmen, hahahah  |
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Post by dupersuper on Mar 15, 2016 11:20:00 GMT -5
There are great super hero comics, there are crappy super hero comics, most are some where in the middle. There are great non-super hero comics, there are crappy non-super hero comics, most are some where in the middle. Saying you prefer 1 or the other is fine, saying why you prfer 1 or the other can start a discussion, saying 1 is intrinsically better than the other or 1 can never achieve the heights of the best of the other is silly.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 15, 2016 17:19:56 GMT -5
[…] lemme outline the (honestly fairly obvious) reasons why the "superhero comics are the best" argument is flawed. Four comics ( Watchmen, Born Again, Year One and TDKR) don't represent a a genre, not by a long shot. Same arguments basically apply though. I LOVE (LOVE!) all four books you mentioned but the Frank Miller books are fairly simple and based in regurgitated pulp tropes and Watchmen is way more style than substance - and there's really only so much emotional depth you can do with superheroes. None of 'em are as ambitions, as smart, as emotionally textured or as creative in plot and structure as Duncan the Wonder Dog or Ice Haven... and you simply can't do stuff as sophisticated Maus or Ghost World or Blood of Palomar when you need to base your work in simplistic children's power fantasy.* This might not be fair to Watchmen. It's obviously not intended to work on that level, but it totally does work as power fantasy and it does so really well! Sorry, Alan. Sorry, Dave. I tend to suspect this is an argument based on what comics made it to Spain. DC and Marvel *never* publish the best American comics but they have the longest reach and massive corporate distribution, while Drawn and Quarterly is eight people working out of some guy's house.** I don't know, but I suspect that the best of the best American comics simply don't have great distribution outside of America... and France. (Right?) * This is why Enigma is the best superhero comic of my lifetime. (And why I only voted Watchmen at a "9.") A post-modernist comedy about sexual identity and how our identities are shaped by the most random events and how Feng Shui can drive you insane. I keep getting pissed that nobody else working in superheroes has done anything like it! Come on guys! Up your game! ** Further research reveals this is a lie. They have an office now! Hooray! |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 15, 2016 17:48:11 GMT -5
I'm the one who implied this is irrelevant if even to be taken seriously. Didn't you explicitly state that those four super hero comics are greater than any other in the history of the medium? Now you lost me. Indeed, which isn't the same as saying "superhero comics are the best", regardless what some might think. I just wanted to clear the air about that, because nothing could be farther away, from reality. Same arguments basically apply though. I tend to suspect this is an argument based on what comics made it to Spain. Only the one about power fantasies, as far as I can tell. I've been going to the mother lode (Previews) for 25 years now. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 15, 2016 19:11:46 GMT -5
I'm the one who implied this is irrelevant if even to be taken seriously. Didn't you explicitly state that those four super hero comics are greater than any other in the history of the medium? Indeed, which isn't the same as saying "superhero comics are the best", regardless what some might think. I just wanted to clear the air about that, because nothing could be farther away, from reality. Except, I don't understand how you don't see it implies that, quite explicitly, just by a that statistic factor you seem to be so fond of, as you must have noticed by our epidermic reactions... Now I'm in the same boat as you, being from France and getting my comics through Diamond (in a local comic shop) roughly since 1992, and also being exposed to the european comics (and some japanese) before even reading about US comics. US comics were a revelation to me, but originaly and still mainly because of the non superhero material (Sandman, Shade, Enigma, etc). What I grew to enjoy with superhero comics for is the regularity of publication and the open end nature of the serialization - which can also be a source of frustration, mind you - but as soon as I was starting to buy Batman comics off hte racks (Doug Moench at first), I was buying Bone, Lowlife, Hate, Eightball, etc. So when I got to read Watchmen, I loved it but wasn't as impressed as you by it, since I wasn't looking for an absolute. Now to answer Reptisaurus, I don't know how it is in Spain, but I can guarantee you that Dan CLowes, Art Spieglman and Charles Burns are quite famous and popular amongst people interested in reading in general, while virtually no one knows who Jim Lee, John Byrne or Chris Claremont are. I'd even argue that in the mainstream medias, Spiegelman, Burns, Clowes, Ware, Tomine, etc are far more famous than Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman in France. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 16, 2016 2:57:43 GMT -5
Indeed, which isn't the same as saying "superhero comics are the best", regardless what some might think. I just wanted to clear the air about that, because nothing could be farther away, from reality. Except, I don't understand how you don't see it implies that, quite explicitly What's the logic that allows someone to infer that? |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 16, 2016 4:37:19 GMT -5
Indeed, which isn't the same as saying "superhero comics are the best", regardless what some might think. I just wanted to clear the air about that, because nothing could be farther away, from reality. Except, I don't understand how you don't see it implies that, quite explicitly, just by a that statistic factor you seem to be so fond of, as you must have noticed by our epidermic reactions... Now I'm in the same boat as you, being from France and getting my comics through Diamond (in a local comic shop) roughly since 1992, and also being exposed to the european comics (and some japanese) before even reading about US comics. US comics were a revelation to me, but originaly and still mainly because of the non superhero material (Sandman, Shade, Enigma, etc). What I grew to enjoy with superhero comics for is the regularity of publication and the open end nature of the serialization - which can also be a source of frustration, mind you - but as soon as I was starting to buy Batman comics off hte racks (Doug Moench at first), I was buying Bone, Lowlife, Hate, Eightball, etc. So when I got to read Watchmen, I loved it but wasn't as impressed as you by it, since I wasn't looking for an absolute. Now to answer Reptisaurus, I don't know how it is in Spain, but I can guarantee you that Dan CLowes, Art Spieglman and Charles Burns are quite famous and popular amongst people interested in reading in general, while virtually no one knows who Jim Lee, John Byrne or Chris Claremont are. I'd even argue that in the mainstream medias, Spiegelman, Burns, Clowes, Ware, Tomine, etc are far more famous than Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman in France. I think as far as the UK goes, Moore is still the most famous comics writer around. Gaiman is probaby better known than Moore, as a name, but mostly as a novelist and screenwriter rather than as a comics writer. I doubt most of the general public have ever heard of any American comics writer other than possibly Stan Lee. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 16, 2016 5:18:46 GMT -5
I think as far as the UK goes, Moore is still the most famous comics writer around. Gaiman is probaby better known tan Moore, as a name, but mostly as a novelist and screenwriter rather than as a comics writer. I doubt most of the general public have ever heard of any American comics writer other than possibly Stan Lee. I must admit I'm quite biased towards the British writers. You'll see what I mean as I roll out the polls. With that said, such an ignorance about foreign comic-book writers, is a little chauvinist, but only a little. I'd be hard pressed to come up with any name, if I wanted to keep the level of quality exhibited by Gaiman, Morrison or Ellis. The only american writer to ever reach those highs, was Scott McCloud, but that was essay. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 16, 2016 5:50:31 GMT -5
I think as far as the UK goes, Moore is still the most famous comics writer around. Gaiman is probaby better known tan Moore, as a name, but mostly as a novelist and screenwriter rather than as a comics writer. I doubt most of the general public have ever heard of any American comics writer other than possibly Stan Lee. I must admit I'm quite biased towards the British writers. You'll see what I mean as I roll out the polls. With that said, such an ignorance about foreign comic-book writers, is a little chauvinist, but only a little. I'd be hard pressed to come up with any name, if I wanted to keep the level of quality exhibited by Gaiman, Morrison or Ellis. The only american writer to ever reach those highs, was Scott McCloud, but that was essay. I don't think it's chauvinist at all. The fact is, the mainstream in any given country is always going to consist primarily of domestic talent. Pretty much every high street newsagent, supermarket and convenience store in Britain stocks some comics, but none of tbem stock foreign comics; if you want US imports, you go to a comics shop, of which there are only about 70 in the entire UK, because they're a niche interest. So why would anyone outside of comics fans ever have heard of any of the creators? The general public are only really even familiar with American comics characters when they appear in movies or on TV. I still remember being in a comic shop in South London a few years back when a guy of about 20 who'd been dragged in by a friend seemed genuinely surprised to find that there were "comics based on Spider-Man", who he clearly believed had been created as a movie character. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 16, 2016 6:00:53 GMT -5
I think as far as the UK goes, Moore is still the most famous comics writer around. Gaiman is probaby better known tan Moore, as a name, but mostly as a novelist and screenwriter rather than as a comics writer. I doubt most of the general public have ever heard of any American comics writer other than possibly Stan Lee. I must admit I'm quite biased towards the British writers. You'll see what I mean as I roll out the polls. With that said, such an ignorance about foreign comic-book writers, is a little chauvinist, but only a little. I'd be hard pressed to come up with any name, if I wanted to keep the level of quality exhibited by Gaiman, Morrison or Ellis. The only american writer to ever reach those highs, was Scott McCloud, but that was essay. Are you seriousy putting Warren Ellis and Morrison's level of quality above Art Spieglman, Chris Ware, Dan Clowes, Robert Crumb, Jim Woodring, Jamie or Gilbert Hernandez, Paul Pope, Jeff Smith, Frank Miller, Dave Lapham, Dave Cooper, etc? |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 16, 2016 6:09:41 GMT -5
Except, I don't understand how you don't see it implies that, quite explicitly, just by a that statistic factor you seem to be so fond of, as you must have noticed by our epidermic reactions... Now I'm in the same boat as you, being from France and getting my comics through Diamond (in a local comic shop) roughly since 1992, and also being exposed to the european comics (and some japanese) before even reading about US comics. US comics were a revelation to me, but originaly and still mainly because of the non superhero material (Sandman, Shade, Enigma, etc). What I grew to enjoy with superhero comics for is the regularity of publication and the open end nature of the serialization - which can also be a source of frustration, mind you - but as soon as I was starting to buy Batman comics off hte racks (Doug Moench at first), I was buying Bone, Lowlife, Hate, Eightball, etc. So when I got to read Watchmen, I loved it but wasn't as impressed as you by it, since I wasn't looking for an absolute. Now to answer Reptisaurus, I don't know how it is in Spain, but I can guarantee you that Dan CLowes, Art Spieglman and Charles Burns are quite famous and popular amongst people interested in reading in general, while virtually no one knows who Jim Lee, John Byrne or Chris Claremont are. I'd even argue that in the mainstream medias, Spiegelman, Burns, Clowes, Ware, Tomine, etc are far more famous than Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman in France. I think as far as the UK goes, Moore is still the most famous comics writer around. Gaiman is probaby better known than Moore, as a name, but mostly as a novelist and screenwriter rather than as a comics writer. I doubt most of the general public have ever heard of any American comics writer other than possibly Stan Lee. I guess that France values a little more cartoonists when it comes to comic books. I mean, thanks to Angouleme, satyrical newspapers (Canard Enchainé, Charlie Hebdo, Echo des Savannes, etc) and how big comics are in our culture (people outside comics started to take Tintin seriously already in the 60ies), so "auteurs" are valued and every now and then invited to popular talk shows or literature shows, which makes them sometimes fairly hip. Burns and Clowes would be the biggest anglo saxon comic people to benefit from that, and they both were several times featured on the highly longstanding influential weekly magazine Les Inrockuptibles, with long interviews or features, and Crumb and many others also had that privilege, but never a super hero writer to the better of my knowledge. I'm sure Gaiman and Moore have often been featured as well there, but not in the same way, probably because thhey're only writers... |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 16, 2016 6:20:57 GMT -5
I think as far as the UK goes, Moore is still the most famous comics writer around. Gaiman is probaby better known than Moore, as a name, but mostly as a novelist and screenwriter rather than as a comics writer. I doubt most of the general public have ever heard of any American comics writer other than possibly Stan Lee. I guess that France values a little more cartoonists when it comes to comic books. I mean, thanks to Angouleme, satyrical newspapers (Canard Enchainé, Charlie Hebdo, Echo des Savannes, etc) and how big comics are in our culture (people outside comics started to take Tintin seriously already in the 60ies), so "auteurs" are valued and every now and then invited to popular talk shows or literature shows, which makes them sometimes fairly hip. Burns and Clowes would be the biggest anglo saxon comic people to benefit from that, and they both were several times featured on the highly longstanding influential weekly magazine Les Inrockuptibles, with long interviews or features, and Crumb and many others also had that privilege, but never a super hero writer to the better of my knowledge. I'm sure Gaiman and Moore have often been featured as well there, but not in the same way, probably because they're only writers... I do wish Britain took comics as seriously as France, and some other areas of continental Europe for that matter. Though there is a rather nice bronze statue in Ipswich, a few miles from me, in tribute to the newspaper cartoonist Carl Giles... |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 16, 2016 7:48:38 GMT -5
Are you seriousy putting Warren Ellis and Morrison's level of quality above Art Spieglman, Chris Ware, Dan Clowes, Robert Crumb, Jim Woodring, Jamie or Gilbert Hernandez, Paul Pope, Jeff Smith, Frank Miller, Dave Lapham, Dave Cooper, etc? I haven't read all of them, for the rest yes. Things like Planetary and The Coyote Gospel are just one step behind the works mentioned earlier. The fact is, the mainstream in any given country is always going to consist primarily of domestic talent. Pretty much every high street newsagent, supermarket and convenience store in Britain stocks some comics, but none of tbem stock foreign comics; if you want US imports, you go to a comics shop, of which there are only about 70 in the entire UK, because they're a niche interest. So why would anyone outside of comics fans ever have heard of any of the creators? The general public are only really even familiar with American comics characters when they appear in movies or on TV. Well, if you are going to step out of a comic shop, so to speak, people in Spain will hardly be able to name anybody. Ibañez at most. But if we talk about people from outside the comic fan base, who eventually step inside, they will ask for Watchmen and Maus, most of the time. Foreign authors in both cases. I guess you can't compare Great Britain to Spain to France to the USA. |
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