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Post by Jasoomian on Jul 10, 2014 10:48:51 GMT -5
I liked Rex Mundi.
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Post by fanboystranger on Jul 10, 2014 11:00:13 GMT -5
Same for religion - the world of superhero books is nothing like reality at all - you have greek gods, roman gods, norse gods - the whole place is rammed packed with gods. outside superhero books tho - anything goes For the most part I'd agree, but then there's something like John Ostrander's run on The Spectre, which examines faith in a very meaningful way without scimping on the supernatural throwdowns. Or even post-Miller Daredevil, which occasionally plays with Matt's Catholicism and guilt. I think you can find a balance, but it takes some thought, skill, and imagination, something I find to be in short supply in most superhero comics these days. (Well, there's skill, but imagination really is at an all-time low in the genre at the moment, in my opinion.) |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 10, 2014 11:59:19 GMT -5
Since many politicians push their religious views via the decisions they make that become laws and thereby interfere and effect the lives of those that don't share those views, I can't see the harm in comic book writers and/or artists doing the same.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 10, 2014 12:51:09 GMT -5
Oh, yes, that was excellent! Ann Nocenti did a dynamite job on that run. The guilt felt by Matt when he started falling for Typhoid Mary segued very elegantly into the editorially-mandated Inferno crossover, Daredevil being pummelled morally by his inner demons and then physically by real-world ones. Great stuff. I also liked the quieter moment, as when Matt had a beer with the devil on Christmas' eve. The Judaeo-Christian religious aspect was treated in a pretty unique way in those issues of Daredevil; it wasn't simply an Abrahamic version of Asgard or Olympus (with angels and devils engaging in fisticuffs, throwing power bolts from their hands and generally behaving like any old supervillain). Ann Nocenti was amazing in that run. She was particularly good at turning company-wide events into gold for Daredevil. The DD issues tying into Mutant massacre, Fall of the mutants, Inferno and Acts of vengeance are easily my favorite of all event-related books. |
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Post by berkley on Jul 10, 2014 13:18:24 GMT -5
Such as....  Does anyone get offended? Embrace it as the truth? Hear the twilight-zone theme? First one I ever came across featured a little indian kid who started to pray to the devil after thinking he was more powerful than God (after witnessing a pastor falling off a ladder)... I'm also wondering if there are any comics that have really delved into witchcraft...(something Crusader comics strictly warns against...) I'm still trying to figure out what this cover is all about: It's been a long time since I read anything about the Book of Revelations, but the wiki article on the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse lists them as Conquest, War, Famine, and Death, but that some Protestant interpretations give them as Catholicism, Communism, Capitalism, and Islam. I can recognise the Pope on the white horse, and I suppose that's meant to be some Communist Russian guy representing the Soviet Union on the red horse, but the robed figure on the pale horse just looks like death, rather than anything related to Islam, so maybe we have a mixture of two or more different versions here. And why is the guy on the black horse dressed as what looks like a protestant minister? |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 10, 2014 15:41:33 GMT -5
Such as.... Does anyone get offended? Embrace it as the truth? Hear the twilight-zone theme? First one I ever came across featured a little indian kid who started to pray to the devil after thinking he was more powerful than God (after witnessing a pastor falling off a ladder)... I'm also wondering if there are any comics that have really delved into witchcraft...(something Crusader comics strictly warns against...) I'm still trying to figure out what this cover is all about: It's been a long time since I read anything about the Book of Revelations, but the wiki article on the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse lists them as Conquest, War, Famine, and Death, but that some Protestant interpretations give them as Catholicism, Communism, Capitalism, and Islam. I can recognise the Pope on the white horse, and I suppose that's meant to be some Communist Russian guy representing the Soviet Union on the red horse, but the robed figure on the pale horse just looks like death, rather than anything related to Islam, so maybe we have a mixture of two or more different versions here. And why is the guy on the black horse dressed as what looks like a protestant minister? It's Jesse Custer? The horseman dressed in white was thought by Bede the venerable and several others to represent the conquering word of God (which is why he arrives as a conquerer and prepares to conquer some more). It's funny to see Chick associate him with the Catholic church! Is Jack a crypto-catholic?  |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jul 10, 2014 16:22:04 GMT -5
Generally, I'm not a fan of religion being prominently featured in comics, due in large part to it rarely being done well. It's usually:
Propaganda (which doesn't do any good for either side, for or against)
Not handled respectfully
Just plain gets it wrong
Super-heroizes it (for example, a supposed actual angel joining the JLA)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 16:31:56 GMT -5
I prefer religion & politics left out of comics (even if they agree with my views). Some stuff like Matt (Daredevil) being Catholic is OK because it defines the character as long as I don't feel "preached" to....
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Post by Rob Allen on Jul 10, 2014 17:53:21 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out what this cover is all about: [...] I can recognise the Pope on the white horse, and I suppose that's meant to be some Communist Russian guy representing the Soviet Union on the red horse, but the robed figure on the pale horse just looks like death, rather than anything related to Islam, so maybe we have a mixture of two or more different versions here. And why is the guy on the black horse dressed as what looks like a protestant minister? I finally found a site that includes enough of the Four Horsemen comic to answer most of your questions: mysterybabylon-watch.blogspot.com/2011/07/testimony-of-ex-jesuit-priest-alberto.htmlScroll down to the Four Horsemen section and you see that indeed, the rider of the white horse of Conquest is the Pope, aka the Antichrist, and the rider of the red horse of War is Communism. The black-robed figure on the black horse of Famine is the head of the Jesuits, who controls the world's economy. I can't see the pages that describe the Death figure on the pale horse, but the cover looks like a relatively traditional interpretation of that one, in contrast to the others. On the general question of religion in comics, I have a personal connection - my father worked for a company that published four evangelical comics in the 70s. I'm even quoted about them on a website devoted to Christian comics. I wasn't then and still am not a believer, so I look at religious comics as a curious outsider. Religious themes do not automatically turn a bad comic into a good one or vice versa. My dad's company's comics were lousy, but that had more to do with Tony Tallarico than theology. By the way, RR, I posted your Abraham cartoon on an atheist forum recently, and got some positive feedback about it. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 10, 2014 19:12:46 GMT -5
Thanks, Rob!
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Post by dupersuper on Jul 10, 2014 19:58:59 GMT -5
I wish there was more religion in comics, purely because it's important to a substantial percentage of people (ten percent? fifty percent?). Ignoring it, or treating it as a minor point, makes comics unrealistic. I think the flying people in tights took care of that... |
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Post by dupersuper on Jul 10, 2014 20:03:16 GMT -5
Generally, I'm not a fan of religion being prominently featured in comics, due in large part to it rarely being done well. It's usually: Super-heroizes it (for example, a supposed actual angel joining the JLA) But Morrisons JLA was awesome... |
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Post by Randle-El on Jul 10, 2014 20:05:31 GMT -5
Chuck Dixon addressed the issue of politics in comics in a recent interview: “If you want to put politics in your own comic, go ahead, that’s a great thing. But to put it in mainstream superhero comics and use them as a platform for your own political views is something we object to. And we object to it from both ends. We don’t think these characters should be used for anyone’s point of views even if they agree with us. When I wrote these characters, I didn’t have them present my political views or any political views at all other than their own that are part of their character. Such as Batman is anti-gun. I wrote a lot of anti-gun speeches for Batman that were well-justified and compassionate. I am not personally anti-gun or anti-Second Amendment, but that’s the character. You don’t write it different than what’s established. That was basically our premise, that these were iconic characters shared by generation after generation and should be pretty much just left alone as good guys and bad guys.”I think I'm inclined to agree here. The key part is "mainstream superhero comics". Oh, yes, that was excellent! Ann Nocenti did a dynamite job on that run. The guilt felt by Matt when he started falling for Typhoid Mary segued very elegantly into the editorially-mandated Inferno crossover, Daredevil being pummelled morally by his inner demons and then physically by real-world ones. Great stuff. I also liked the quieter moment, as when Matt had a beer with the devil on Christmas' eve. The Judaeo-Christian religious aspect was treated in a pretty unique way in those issues of Daredevil; it wasn't simply an Abrahamic version of Asgard or Olympus (with angels and devils engaging in fisticuffs, throwing power bolts from their hands and generally behaving like any old supervillain). Ann Nocenti was amazing in that run. She was particularly good at turning company-wide events into gold for Daredevil. The DD issues tying into Mutant massacre, Fall of the mutants, Inferno and Acts of vengeance are easily my favorite of all event-related books. I enjoyed parts of her run, especially the Typhoid Mary arc and the amnesia arc (which were the first Daredevil comics I ever bought). But I did not enjoy the political aspects of her writing. It just felt odd in a Daredevil comic. The most glaring examples were the anti-factory farming and animal rights speeches that she shoehorned in to the book. |
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Post by benday-dot on Jul 10, 2014 20:08:19 GMT -5
I kind of dig Son of Satan, or at least Gerber's run on the title. It is interesting that a comic about papa Satan's youngin' is a lot more palatable than one on God's own youngin'. The more overt Jesus elements in Tony Isabella's Ghost Rider were quashed by editorial back in the day.
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Post by travishedgecoke on Jul 10, 2014 23:53:20 GMT -5
Thing about that Chuck Dixon quote is that he doesn't walk the walk. His comics are often highly political and guided by his religious beliefs, in terms of who in any argument is right or wrong, over how events are judged by characters or by "nature."
His opposition, for instance, to a character dying of AIDS in someone else's book, because that might be inappropriate to kids reading a superhero comic, or to homosexual relationships in kid-friendly comics, is a political choice of omission, as much as his choice to write a pregnant teen mother or an mixed-race Green Arrow were. He's good at keeping a character's perspective or beliefs steady, to a degree (when people kept saying GA was gay, Dixon sorta overnighted him into a sexgod who'd just been a deeply-inexperienced virgin a moment before), but putting religion or politics into a comic is more than just if a character acknowledges the Pope or is an avatar of Shiva. It's about the moral judgments the fictional universe makes, the consequences of actions or correlations being established.
So, when he pretends he's keeping his politics out of comics, it just rubs me wrong.
He's better than some when it comes to writing some already-established characters, yeah, but he doesn't keep his politics or his "how things work" moral structure out of his comics writing. No more or less so than, say, Alan Grant, but Grant's less likely to deny when something's a political or ethical choice.
It's so commonplace with DC and Marvel that when there's a giant disaster, the broken up heroes all get together in a Christian church, bow their heads, someone gives a rousing speech, that we're supposed to accept the church as neutral ground or "universal," but it's not. It's like the people who got literally upset because the Marvel anime shows were set mostly in Japan, which is not - as one IMdB poster put it - "the center of the world," but have no problem with them all being set in New York. We're probably less bothered by moral orders, or by habits and happenstance that agrees with our expectations, but it doesn't make ours any more true.
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