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Post by DE Sinclair on Jul 11, 2014 11:29:04 GMT -5
Generally, I'm not a fan of religion being prominently featured in comics, due in large part to it rarely being done well. It's usually: Super-heroizes it (for example, a supposed actual angel joining the JLA) But Morrisons JLA was awesome... Mostly, it was. However, I'm not sure how anyone in the DC Universe is supposed to be an atheist, when an actual Judeo-Christian angel is on the JLA roster. It comes off as a verification/endorsement, to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 12:22:03 GMT -5
I remember when I was a kid there was a pretty frequently aired TV commercial for an illustrated bible. It was basically a big fat graphic novel. I always wanted it. Seems several have been made, I've looked it up since then, and I can't remember which one was from the commercial. That's the one I want.
That and Crumb's Genesis.
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Post by Rob Allen on Jul 11, 2014 13:48:13 GMT -5
A couple of years ago, the local art museum had the original art for Crumb's Genesis - ALL the pages - as its big summer exhibit. Kurt and I saw it together, and it's amazingly well done.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 11, 2014 14:17:17 GMT -5
Keith Giffen and Scott Hamtpon's The Bible: Eden is an odd book. Its heart seems to be in an artistic rendition of the first pages of Genesis, putting the emphasis on their poetry and on human nature facing the world for the first time; but the book has a little too much sex to be seen as a really serious take on the subject.
That is unfortunate because Hamtpon does an amazing job on many, many pages. The forbidden fruit, all white on the outside and blood-red on the inside, is a scary one indeed; and the sense of guilt after that regrettable lunch is really palpable.
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Post by Randle-El on Jul 11, 2014 17:47:23 GMT -5
Thing about that Chuck Dixon quote is that he doesn't walk the walk. His comics are often highly political and guided by his religious beliefs, in terms of who in any argument is right or wrong, over how events are judged by characters or by "nature." His opposition, for instance, to a character dying of AIDS in someone else's book, because that might be inappropriate to kids reading a superhero comic, or to homosexual relationships in kid-friendly comics, is a political choice of omission, as much as his choice to write a pregnant teen mother or an mixed-race Green Arrow were. He's good at keeping a character's perspective or beliefs steady, to a degree (when people kept saying GA was gay, Dixon sorta overnighted him into a sexgod who'd just been a deeply-inexperienced virgin a moment before), but putting religion or politics into a comic is more than just if a character acknowledges the Pope or is an avatar of Shiva. It's about the moral judgments the fictional universe makes, the consequences of actions or correlations being established. So, when he pretends he's keeping his politics out of comics, it just rubs me wrong. He's better than some when it comes to writing some already-established characters, yeah, but he doesn't keep his politics or his "how things work" moral structure out of his comics writing. No more or less so than, say, Alan Grant, but Grant's less likely to deny when something's a political or ethical choice. It's so commonplace with DC and Marvel that when there's a giant disaster, the broken up heroes all get together in a Christian church, bow their heads, someone gives a rousing speech, that we're supposed to accept the church as neutral ground or "universal," but it's not. It's like the people who got literally upset because the Marvel anime shows were set mostly in Japan, which is not - as one IMdB poster put it - "the center of the world," but have no problem with them all being set in New York. We're probably less bothered by moral orders, or by habits and happenstance that agrees with our expectations, but it doesn't make ours any more true. I think the distinction between what you're talking about vs. what Chuck Dixon is addressing is the difference between letting your work reflect your worldview vs. co-opting a character as a mouthpiece for certain political positions that doesn't jive with established characterization. Certainly creative works should reflect the artists's worldview, and I wouldn't have any objection to that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 17:54:54 GMT -5
Depends on what their worldview is.
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Post by Randle-El on Jul 11, 2014 18:05:28 GMT -5
Depends on what their worldview is. I'll amend my statement -- I may not agree with certain *positions*, but my point was that it's natural that a creative work should reflect the views of its creator, and I wouldn't expect anything less of a creator working with any kind of integrity. I don't object to that. What I would find more objectionable is if a creator uses an established character and radically alters their characterization to suit their particular slant in mann
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Post by dupersuper on Jul 11, 2014 20:12:48 GMT -5
But Morrisons JLA was awesome... Mostly, it was. However, I'm not sure how anyone in the DC Universe is supposed to be an atheist, when an actual Judeo-Christian angel is on the JLA roster. It comes off as a verification/endorsement, to me. Sure, if Wonder Woman (gifted with powers from Hercules, Athena, Hermes, Aphrodite, et al), Captain Marvel (empowered with the abilities of Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles and Mercury by an Egyptian wizard), Mr. Miracle, Big Barda, Orion, Lightray and their links to Mother Box (New Gods) and a Scandanavian ice goddess hadn't all been members of the same team. Hermes was on the news in Wonder Womans comics. I imagine the general public in the DCU takes these things with a grain of salt.
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Post by dupersuper on Jul 11, 2014 20:15:09 GMT -5
I think the distinction between what you're talking about vs. what Chuck Dixon is addressing is the difference between letting your work reflect your worldview vs. co-opting a character as a mouthpiece for certain political positions that doesn't jive with established characterization. AKA Lois Lane in "Decisions"?
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Post by Randle-El on Jul 12, 2014 14:47:39 GMT -5
I think the distinction between what you're talking about vs. what Chuck Dixon is addressing is the difference between letting your work reflect your worldview vs. co-opting a character as a mouthpiece for certain political positions that doesn't jive with established characterization. AKA Lois Lane in "Decisions"? I'm not an apologist for him -- however well or poorly he may have adhered to it himself, I appreciate the manner that he articulated the sentiment to the extent that it mirrors my own views of mainstream superheroes.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 12, 2014 15:41:05 GMT -5
Depends on what their worldview is. Does it? I guess in the OPs question in whether you object to what a writer's views are and how they express them in their work, it does depend. But if your saying that depending on what their world view is and if they should be allowed to convey that in their work or not seems to be one-sided. If there is a writer whose views you happen to agree with and enjoy the way it is incorporated in their work and is free to share that than so should Dave Sim, Frank Miller, Card, etc. Now if I completely missed your point, disregard. But in something you have absolute choice to consume or dismiss, it really is all or nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 15:58:45 GMT -5
Depends on what their worldview is. Does it? I guess in the OPs question in whether you object to what a writer's views are and how they express them in their work, it does depend. But if your saying that depending on what their world view is and if they should be allowed to convey that in their work or not seems to be one-sided. If there is a writer whose views you happen to agree with and enjoy the way it is incorporated in their work and is free to share that than so should Dave Sim, Frank Miller, Card, etc. Now if I completely missed your point, disregard. But in something you have absolute choice to consume or dismiss, it really is all or nothing. No, if their worldview reflects reality somewhat, I'll be okay with it. If their worldview happens to be that Muslims have to be bad guys 100% of the time, as if all of them are praying toward Mecca for the downfall of Western civilization, then it's not really reflecting reality. That's one of those bigoted nonsense comics I can't read. If their worldview is that only promiscuous gays and blacks suffer from AIDS, I can't read it. That's also not a reflection of reality. If their worldview is that immigrants are lazy welfare queens, it's not reflecting reality. I don't think there's any onesidedness about it. Some people's world views are terribly distorted, and when it leaks into their work, I won't read it. They don't have to use Captain America as a proxy for their own statements in order to fill their comic with that nonsense, even if they're doing it subconsciously because they really believe the world is that way. There's agreeing with a worldview, and there's a worldview backed up by reality. Facts. Statistics. "I think all black people are purse snatchers." Well, some people think it. It's verifiably not true though.
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Post by Spike-X on Jul 13, 2014 2:34:33 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of religion, so if a comic had a heavy religious bent it most likely wouldn't interest me. No reason it shouldn't exist though. I don't have to like/agree with every comic on the shelf.
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Post by Spike-X on Jul 13, 2014 2:36:40 GMT -5
Depends on what their worldview is. No it doesn't. Any creator has a right to have their work reflect their worldview. We have a right to either purchase the work, or not.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
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Post by shaxper on Jul 13, 2014 4:50:39 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of religion, so if a comic had a heavy religious bent it most likely wouldn't interest me. ...says the man with the Cerebus avatar
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