|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 20:04:10 GMT -5
Such as.... Does anyone get offended? Embrace it as the truth? Hear the twilight-zone theme? First one I ever came across featured a little indian kid who started to pray to the devil after thinking he was more powerful than God (after witnessing a pastor falling off a ladder)... I'm also wondering if there are any comics that have really delved into witchcraft...(something Crusader comics strictly warns against...)
|
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,958
|
Post by Crimebuster on Jul 9, 2014 20:18:15 GMT -5
I find religious comic to be fascinating. Al Hartley's Spire comics, for example, I pick up whenever I see them cheap. I also have several issues of Treasure Chest, which seem to soft pedal the religious aspects most of the time. And I have some weird indie Christian books which read kind of like comic book versions of Christian metal bands. As far as witchcraft, a friend of mine has an original copy of the infamous Jack Chick anti Dungeons and Dragons tract, which equates playing D&D with practicing witchcraft. It's hysterical. Sample panel:
|
|
|
Post by fanboystranger on Jul 9, 2014 20:55:43 GMT -5
It depends on what you mean by witchcraft. Pre-Christian/pagan themes and practices are a major element of Slaine from Horned God on, and Pat Mills intended to do a series entitled Witchlands at Epic that I don't think ever materialized. James Robinson's Witchcraft minis aren't exactly about the practice so much as the "Sandman" version of it, but there's enough folklore in there to count, I'd say.
|
|
|
Post by mrc1214 on Jul 9, 2014 21:09:13 GMT -5
It doesn't offend me but they aren't comics I seek out or anything. My boss buys religious stuff (he even had a comic book which he gave to one of my co-workers) and tries to get ppl to watch or read it. That kind of stuff bothers me cause I just feel like people should find out about it on their own if they want to.
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Jul 9, 2014 21:27:41 GMT -5
Dunno. The First Amendment fan in me says it's necessary for a healthy discourse, while the skeptic in me says. . .otherwise. That being said, I wouldn't toss this one to the curb:
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 22:48:24 GMT -5
Doesn't bother me. If it's not my style I simply don't read it. More than once a comic I read turned a weird corner with religion. Sometimes I suffer through it, sometimes I stop reading it. Just because I'm not a believer doesn't mean it can't make for fun stories though. I always like a good demonic possession flick. The only time I won't read it out of principle is if it's some bigoted nonsense, like the Chick Tracts.
|
|
|
Post by travishedgecoke on Jul 9, 2014 23:58:53 GMT -5
Depends on how we're meaning "pushing" here. i've loved some religious or spiritually themed comics, from Hellblazer and Preacher to The Invisibles and that Batgirl story where she and Robin beat up Benedict Arnold's ghost, the Devil, and the Devil's brides. Masamune does some wonderful things with philosophy, spirituality, and cosmogony in Orion and later Ghost in the Shell 2 that is fascinating, exciting, sometimes really funny, even if you don't buy into the religion or philosophical structures he's using. Tales of the Buddha Before He Was Englishtened is amazing.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 0:08:25 GMT -5
There's a fine line between stories examining religious/political themes and propaganda. Stories have always explored those themes, sometimes effectively, sometimes not, but every medium where stories are told have also been used to produce propaganda for religious/political causes as well, whether to proselytize, recruit or demonize opposition.
I welcome stories that explore difficult themes, but I am not a fan of propaganda pretending to be stories/entertainment, but I do have an academic interest in propaganda, form stuff like old War Bonds posters and Rosie the Riveter type campaigns to 40's Popeye cartoons, WWII themes comic covers etc. I just have issues with propaganda purporting to be something else.
-M
|
|
|
Post by dupersuper on Jul 10, 2014 0:11:41 GMT -5
Religious themes are fine (Testament for example), but stuff like Stories from the Bible above I pass by. Religion's not for me.
|
|
|
Post by Randle-El on Jul 10, 2014 1:07:55 GMT -5
Creative works typically reflect the worldview of the creator -- sometimes in subtle ways, sometimes in not-so-subtle ways. Gene Roddenberry was, I believe, a secular humanist and that was written all over Star Trek. C.S. Lewis was an evangelical Christian and the Chronicles of Narnia reflected that. Tolkien's works hinted at his Catholic faith and his view of agrarian vs. industrialized society. Personally, I think that if the creative work is thoughtful, it can be accepted on its own merits regardless of its spiritual content. A Buddhist can enjoy Lewis and a Christian can enjoy Star Trek. On the other hand, I personally find that heavy-handed works are rarely thoughtful or interesting creative works.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Jul 10, 2014 2:40:38 GMT -5
I wish there was more religion in comics, purely because it's important to a substantial percentage of people (ten percent? fifty percent?). Ignoring it, or treating it as a minor point, makes comics unrealistic. I feel exactly the same way about politics. I get the reasons: writers don't want to offend people, but an unwillingness to embrace major themes makes for bland comics. So does a desire to offend - they are both extremes of bad writing. I am religious, though not conventionally: I no longer attend any church, and I don't believe in the supernatural. Religion has dominated my life since childhood, and I just don't recognise the religion I see in comics. Religious folk and comic writers generally seem at opposite poles, and I think that narrows the views of both. Take the examples above: "Four Horsemen" is one of Jack Chick's famous tracts. These are famous, and I find them fascinating and, in their own way, very well done. But they are extremes of polemic. Rabid evangelism is only a small part of religion. The average person in the pews does not see the world that way, or if they do, they usually haven't thought it through in any depth. (Same goes for extreme political views.) Similarly, the illustrated Bible is clearly made by outsiders to comics: it's like "the kids are reading these awful comics, let's give them something worthwhile". At the other extreme, religion seems alien to most comic producers: we have Nightcrawler occasionally referring to faith, but it's like the religion in The Exorcist: it's not religion as most people experience it. My point is that religion in comics is usually unrepresentative. To most believers, religion is a social thing: it is how you meet friends, it's a framework for making sense of the world. Most believers are not theologians, not rabid evangelicals, and not earnest preachers: they are just ordinary people who find that, usually for social reasons, a church meets some of their needs. A realistic comic would have maybe a quarter of the people attending social activities with their church friends: we just never see that. Ironically, the only mainstream entertainment that gets religion right (in my view) are the Simpsons and South Park. Ned Flanders may be an absurd, and most people would feel uncomfortable in his house, but he's also the nicest guy in Springfield. And Homer actually attends a church, while it has no effect on him (or the majority of attendees), simply because Marge does. That's pretty common. And while the South Park episode on Mormonism portrayed it as "dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb" they also make clear that people with dumb views can actually be nice guys with nice families: it works for them. Parker and Stone's other famous project, the Book of Mormon musical, has the same message. Personally I'd also like to see philosophers of religion more represented in comics, to give a serious intellectual view, but that's probably asking too much I see religion as a variant on politics: it isn't about beliefs, it's about belonging to a tribe. And I think that's why writers usually steer clear of both: religion and politics are dominated by in-group out-group feelings, and it's super easy to offend people. Would you like your favourite superhero as much if you found his politics were the opposite of yours? But in the hands of a good writer we can still like someone who differs from us: it makes their story richer, more interesting. it makes them a gateway to a more interesting world. For me the most interesting people are those who have opposite views to mine, but they can share them intelligently and with compassion. For example, I generally identify with liberals on most issues, but as someone who loves economics I love reading essays by "right wingers" like Peter Hitchens. I can see why Stephen Fry considers him a miserable turd, but I prefer Hitchens to Fry. Fry is very clever and very likeable, but ultimately (to me) vacuous: by his own admission he avoids hard topics. Occasionally he will have a strong opinion on some hot button issue (especially gay right, obviously) but mostly he just entertains with his wit. Hitchens on the other hand never met a topic he didn't have a strong opinion on, and at least he tries. I like that. If nothing else it creates intellectual conflict, and isn't that the bedrock of interesting writing? On the other extreme I also like the writing of Jewish writer Lionel Blue. He used to give regular Radio 4 talks full of homespun wisdom. He is such a bland pollyanna that my first reaction is to turn off the radio when I hear his voice. Yet the fact is that his blandness and desire to be nice is a reflection of a very large part of humanity, and the world is a much better place because of it. I want I find that most comics try to be like Fry: they want to look smart (and often they are); they occasionally making a stand on some hot button issue, but generally they avoid controversy, yet without going all the way and being gentle or curious. I want my comics to contain the full range of experience and people. I do want smart ass stuff, but I also want meaty stuff and I also want gentle stuff. I want it all.
|
|
|
Post by travishedgecoke on Jul 10, 2014 3:47:50 GMT -5
Gotta agree, in part, with tolworthy. Putting religion into a comic, or ones personal cosmogony, generally comes down to the moral structure one believes exist in the world, or that we hope exist. Elliot S! Maggin's comics don't always feature angels and demons kicking each other in the shins or fiery bushes making proclamations, but they're frequently quite religious and reflect his worldview, his how-things-work.
Reposted from CBR, because I think it's applicable here, to, are some thoughts I had on Seven Soldiers of Victory and Promethea. Promethea was Alan Moore trying do a kind of walking tour of how he thinks the world works, his religious or religio-political perspective. Grant Morrison decided to respond with parts of Seven Soldiers, primarily the Zatanna issues. Obviously, this doesn't mean that Morrison believes the Fox and Kane era DC mystic realms exist, or that Alan Moore thinks the world ended, because these aren't nonfiction, but they're meant to represent in ethics and consequences, real-world functions.
...
Promethea features of a scary, misogynistic old man disguising himself as a handsome youth to seduce then terrify two teenage girls, then when the heroine gets the better of him, he offers to teach her things, but only if she'll prostitute her higher self to him, because, and he flat out tells her, her higher self is smarter and better looking than she is. He spins this as an Innana/you must get naked to walk through Hell thing.
Seven Soldiers simply has a teenage girl ask the already very open and earnest Zatanna if she can teach her some things, and Z says she's a bit of a mess, but she gives it a shot, anyway, and just tries to help the kid out by introducing her to good people, getting her a meal, and trying not to overstep herself.
One of those is incredibly self-serving and douchey on the teacher's part. The other is just nice.
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 10, 2014 5:25:29 GMT -5
Like Scott Harris, I find things like Jack Chick's comics hysterical; they're so extreme in their bigoted and idiotic message that it's hard to take them seriously. Then again, perhaps I'd be more upset about them if I belonged to groups he and his rabid brethren so clearly hate. Catholics, Moslems, Jews (or homosexuals, for that matter) might not find his stuff half so amusing.
Tolworthy points out something very important when he says that religion, like politics, is about belonging to a tribe. They are perforce a delicate subject because a writer wants to interest all readers, not cater exclusively to the interests and beliefs of a few. Those who want to use the subject without preaching can however produce great material, because both religion and politics elicit passionate responses. One of my favorite comic-book series, The Decalogue, is about a (fictional) document supposedly left by the prophet Muhammad; there is naturally a good measure of religion in there.
Things like Stories from the Bible are usually a lot of fun; these tales, after all, belong to the classical literary corpus of western civilization. (Whether they're always well-made is another thing).
|
|
|
Post by Dizzy D on Jul 10, 2014 6:17:27 GMT -5
Like Scott Harris, I find things like Jack Chick's comics hysterical; they're so extreme in their bigoted and idiotic message that it's hard to take them seriously. Then again, perhaps I'd be more upset about them if I belonged to groups he and his rabid brethren so clearly hate. Catholics, Moslems, Jews (or homosexuals, for that matter) might not find his stuff half so amusing. Tolworthy points out something very important when he says that religion, like politics, is about belonging to a tribe. They are perforce a delicate subject because a writer wants to interest all readers, not cater exclusively to the interests and beliefs of a few. Those who want to use the subject without preaching can however produce great material, because both religion and politics elicit passionate responses. One of my favorite comic-book series, The Decalogue, is about a (fictional) document supposedly left by the prophet Muhammad; there is naturally a good measure of religion in there. Things like Stories from the Bible are usually a lot of fun; these tales, after all, belong to the classical literary corpus of western civilization. (Whether they're always well-made is another thing). As a technical Catholic (see Dara Ó Briain for an explanation), I'm still amused by Jack Chick. Mostly because it's just so silly and he's no threat whatsoever to me and my family. Would probably be different if he was my neighbour though.
|
|
ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
Posts: 456
|
Post by ironchimp on Jul 10, 2014 7:08:59 GMT -5
I dont think real world politics works in superhero books - real problems aren't sorted by a man dressed as badger punching people. You could have batman in kosovo or something but a. the story is going to be interrupted by a crossover and b. actual real people were being killed and risking their lives to sort the actual problem out so it just looks crass. If one wants real world politics in comics book there is Joe Sacco and people like that.
Same for religion - the world of superhero books is nothing like reality at all - you have greek gods, roman gods, norse gods - the whole place is rammed packed with gods.
outside superhero books tho - anything goes
|
|